Music; inspired from above or from below?

[Imagican]

MEC, are you a purist or something?
I'll wager you are much better dressed than Jesus, Paul, Peter, Timothy or John. I'll wager you don't have to rely on strange households for a meal or shelter as the disciples had done.
Look at yourself. You're living better than most kings or queens did back then. They didn't have hot and cold running water, toilets that flushed, disposals that instantly got rid of food scrapes, the luxury to talk to someone else in real-time anywhere in the world, a transportation option as you enjoy that they could never imagine, a box that brings images live to your very face, selections of entertainment like nothing ever seen before in the history of the world... I could go on and on.

Potluck,

If 'I' 'hated' my brother, does THAT I DO IT, negate the TRUTH that I SHOULDN'T? I am WELL aware, (having lived overseas in IMPOVERISHED countries, HOW WELL we 'have it' here in America), but does that MEAN that it's a 'good thing' for ME to be 'living FOR these things'?

I have SIMPLY offered speculation. Is it WRONG to question what we DO? And IF we are 'convicted' in our HEARTS that the BEHVIOR we 'exhibit' IS against what we are SUPPOSED to BE doing, is it WRONG to ask the questions that I have?

How are we 'suppose' to determine the 'righteousness' of OUR behavior? Just GUESS? And HOW are we to 'be conformed' to that which God would offer IF we 'refuse' to EVEN admit that there MAY be a 'problem'?

I'm confused here. You and others have continually tried to 'turn this BACK on me' as IF I have stated that I am 'somehow' BETTER through understanding. And I have continually offered that if ANYTHING, I am PROBABLY worse than MOSt others. But is it IMPOSSIBLE for me to UNDERSTAND BEFORE I have completely eliminated 'something' from my life? For one must UNDERSTAND FIRST that 'lying' is WRONG before the ABILITY exists to BATTLE such a condition.

Christ offered the words that one that is NOT sick NEED no physician. In this light, how are we to DEAL with an issue that we have little or NO understanding of? And ALL I have encountered so far are those that have 'convinced themselves' that they NEED NO PHYSICIAN. That there is NOTHING 'wrong' with partaking of the rudiments of 'this world'. That SOMEHOW them 'thinking' that THEIR acceptance of the 'things of this world' ARE NOT 'really', "Things of this world".

I am NOT a 'puritan' on purpose. The concept here is NOT one that I am IMMUNE to. That is WHY the issue was addressed. Now, HOW do we discern the difference? I have asked this over and over and been COMPLETELY ignored so far as 'an answer' is concerned. Instead of discussion, all I get is ACCUSATION and condemnation. Why is THAT?

How do we KNOW that the music that we listen to IS 'holy' or 'unholy'? Is it SIMPLY a matter of MENTIONING 'Jesus' in the music that MAKES it 'holy'. For even the DEMONS KNOW the name of Jesus.

Is there a 'form' of music that IS holy? And, if so, is there a 'form' that is NOT. And is it TRULY without ANY power of it's own and COMPLETELY up to the individuals VIEW of it? That we can listen to ANY 'type' of music WITHOUT it haveing the ability to influence us in ANY negative manner.

These are the questions. NOT whether I personally listen to ANY music. Or whether or not I wear a 'cross' around my neck. The questions are NOT of WHAT I DO or DON'T do, but rather; SHOULD WE?

MEC

I'm not buying your comparison about shoes, clothing or anything else you care to mention. I'm here, at this moment in time, living in a world that offers more than the pharoahs of Egypt could dream of and like just about everyone else taking most of it for granted. You type out a message on a computer, a marriage of state-of-the-art electronics and luxury, that can be seen from just about anywhere in the world by just about anyone and you want to talk about the fact that Jesus didn't wear expensive shoes.

I know what your saying and I know what you're getting at but the ideal you preach simply isn't reality even for the most staunch of believers. You and I both live in this world and there's just no sense ignoring it or the availability of the shoes someone cares to wear.

Now, if you're talking about excess then maybe you have a point. Anything in excess has it's drawbacks whether it's outward appearance or the health of the spirit. But I don't think I can be condemned for an earring in my ear listening to Simon and Garfunkel while a cross swinging from a chain around my neck keeps rythme with my feet on my way to the Men's Breakfast at church on a saturday morning. Especially if I'm one of the guys that has to fry the bacon. :-D

 

[francisdesales]

These are the questions. NOT whether I personally listen to ANY music. Or whether or not I wear a 'cross' around my neck. The questions are NOT of WHAT I DO or DON'T do, but rather; SHOULD WE?

It is amazing that these conversations are still taking place...

To answer your question, did Jesus refuse a hot meal because it was cooked with fire? Did not Jesus drink wine? Did Jesus visit the Temple, feeling a particular ZEAL for His Father's HOUSE? Do you think Jesus turned down a bed, rather than sleeping outside on rocks?

Well, if we spool back time thousands of years back to cave-man days, we see that Jesus' time frame lived in relatively luxury. God did not create wine. He did not cook food for man. God did not build houses or beds. Thus, Jesus enjoyed the various inventions and comforts of the day, just as WE TOO, are to enjoy the works that man has provided - because of the intellect that God has given man to discover and invent.

Too much is being made about enjoying man's work - while in reality, Christ enjoyed it as well. Never once did He condemn man wearing clothes, drinking wine, eating hot food, wearing clothes sewn by man, or enjoying the Temple that God Himself commanded man to build.

No need to lecture me, just that you are not realizing that Christ Himself never condemned the works of men that enabled man to live better. He condemned hypocrisy and such. The INNER works of man that separate us from God.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

I'm not buying your comparison about shoes, clothing or anything else you care to mention. I'm here, at this moment in time, living in a world that offers more than the pharoahs of Egypt could dream of and like just about everyone else taking most of it for granted. You type out a message on a computer, a marriage of state-of-the-art electronics and luxury, that can be seen from just about anywhere in the world by just about anyone and you want to talk about the fact that Jesus didn't wear expensive shoes.

Well now, let's see. You have JUST stated that it REALLY doensn't MATTER what we SHOULD do, only what we DO DO, (no pun intended). I just WONDER is 'that's' what LIVING FOR Christ is ALL about.

I know what your saying and I know what you're getting at but the ideal you preach simply isn't reality even for the most staunch of believers. You and I both live in this world and there's just no sense ignoring it or the availability of the shoes someone cares to wear.

Do you 'consider' WHAT i Do 'preaching'? For I am NOT worthy to BE a 'minister'. A teacher perhaps, but I am FAR from 'blameless'.

And Pot, we haven't 'gotten to that point YET, but it's NOT the 'shoes' you wear that MAKES the 'difference', it's WHY we wear the 'shoes that we wear' that is ABLE to offer discernment of the TRUTH.

Now, if you're talking about excess then maybe you have a point. Anything in excess has it's drawbacks whether it's outward appearance or the health of the spirit. But I don't think I can be condemned for an earring in my ear listening to Simon and Garfunkel while a cross swinging from a chain around my neck keeps rythme with my feet on my way to the Men's Breakfast at church on a saturday morning. Especially if I'm one of the guys that has to fry the bacon.

I question EXACTLY how MUCH of 'Simon and Garfunkel' we CAN allow INTO our lives BEFORE it 'becomes' EXCESS. And when we are ABLE to 'get to that point', ONLY then are we EVEN able to discern whether ANY is a 'good thing', (I happen to 'like' Simon and Garfunkel', but Pot, I use to LIKE 'christmas trees', and 'halloween masks and parties', DRINKING, drugs, promiscuous fornication, BEING IMPORTANT, MONEY, HONOR, GLORY, etc.......... some I have been ABLE to 'give up' and some I still 'live with'. But the question is SHOULD WE?).

I do NOT mean to SOUND like I am ANY different than ANY OTHER, (other than PERHAPS in UNDERSTANDING). That is the WHOLE point of these issues. I question them DAILY in MY 'walk'. I do NOT question them for the 'sake' of 'having NOTHING better to DO', I question them THROUGH conviction. Do I LOVE the world MORE than I love Christ? Do I love the world more than God Himself? And, HOW can I answer this question when I am SO 'caught up in the THINGS of this world that I can't even distinguish the 'difference'?

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Brother Mike,

I hope that life has been treating your fair brother,

Here is just a quick note, I hope that this touches on what your searching for.

Ezekiel 16 is a picture of the Church. It’s the story on how God took the Church and as she grew and matured, she was richly blessed by YHVH as he made her beautiful and adorned her in excess. In other words, God made His Church attractive!

The later half of Ezekiel 16 shows how the Church abused the beauty that YHVH had adorned her with for her own benefit to the degree that she had prostituted herself worse than her sister Sodom.

MEC,
You asked earlier, “Should Weâ€Â. I don't see it as a matter of “Should Weâ€Â, but rather, “What do we…â€Â

In the matter of music, the answer to “Should Weâ€Â, is yes, but in answering “YES†comes the responsibility to use these gifts to glorify God.

As far as music being holy, God told Moses, “Take off your sandals, for the ground you walk on is Holy ground.†Let me ask you, what made the ground Holy? Was it because God was present, or was it that God made His presence known to Moses?

What then would make music Holy or unholy? Would it be God’s presence or absense, or would it be our awareness of God’s presence or absence?

 

[Vic C.]

Do you HONESTLY 'think' that NO ONE on this forum listens to ANY music other that what the 'churches' have TAUGHT them is OK? Come on, my brother.

You border on the absurd sometimes. :-? The church doesn't teach us what to listen to. :o ...and as far as contemporary Christian Music, yes, some of it resembles so-called "secular" music, but again, music in itself is neutral; it know no label on it's own. We give it labels. As far as separating CCM from secular music one only need to... listen to the lyrics!

Geesh, if you don't want to listen to it, them don't! But please allow us the prerogative to do so ourselves.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Your salvation is personal between you and the Lord and so is ours. Lets us work it out as the verse suggest, fair enough?

 

[Rick W]

Oh.
And for the record I don't have an earring in my ear.
:-D

 

[stovebolts]

How about your tongue? 8-)

 

[Imagican]

Do you HONESTLY 'think' that NO ONE on this forum listens to ANY music other that what the 'churches' have TAUGHT them is OK? Come on, my brother.

You border on the absurd sometimes. :-? The church doesn't teach us what to listen to. :o ...and as far as contemporary Christian Music, yes, some of it resembles so-called "secular" music, but again, music in itself is neutral; it know no label on it's own. We give it labels. As far as separating CCM from secular music one only need to... listen to the lyrics!

Geesh, if you don't want to listen to it, them don't! But please allow us the prerogative to do so ourselves.

Phil 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Your salvation is personal between you and the Lord and so is ours. Lets us work it out as the verse suggest, fair enough?

Vic, my brother,

I am NOT here to tell ANYONE what they should DO. Each of us is responsible for our OWN Salvation. It is 'something' that MUST be worked out between US and God. Please don't take my words to INDICATE that I am TELLING 'anyone' HOW they MUST do ANYTHING.

I have simply brought to mind questions that we SHOULD be able to answer IF we are to 'teach' our brothers and sisters TRUTH concerning these subjects. I KNOW it's a 'tricky' one.

I find it difficult to believe that this 'subject' causes 'so much tension'. It's JUST a 'discussion'. I am ALWAYS 'curious' as to what 'others think' in regards to a 'Christian walk'. I am NOT one to simply ACCEPT 'anything' without being able to UNDERSTAND it FIRST.

I am SERIOUSLY looking for ONE ANSWER; HOW do we KNOW that the 'music' we are listening to IS 'holy' or UNholy. It's really not a matter of 'judging ANYONE'.

Can I be BLAMED for being ANYTHING other than 'what I am'? And I DON'T blame OTHERS for 'beging' WHO or WHAT they 'are'.

I have RECOGNIZED that there is LITTLE offered NOW DAYS concerning the MUSIC that is ACCEPTED in 'the churches'. I QUESTION the VALIDITY of MUCH of it. Is that 'wrong' of me to SEEK an answer as to whether or NOT it is VALID behavior concerning those that would PROFESS being followers of Christ?

Please FORGIVE me if I am UNABLE to 'pleasantly articulate' my search. I have asked OPENLY for opinions. I have LISTENED to any and all that have replied. And CONTRARY to what MANY may 'believe', I am NOT here to simply cause ANYONE to feel ANY way other than HOW they FEEL.

I'm preparing to 'wrap it up' though. I 'thought' that there WOULD be a 'way' to discuss such an issue WITHOUT causing ANYONE to 'feel' poorly about it. Please give me a 'couple more' posts and I can assure you, that I'm THROUGH with it.

But Vic, IT IS a 'seeking' that I desire. ANSWERS to questions that I have been LED to 'believe' DO MATTER. So much has been altered in our teachings that I am CURIOUS as to what OTHERS 'believe'. I have stated OVER AND OVER; I do NOT belong to ANY denomination. I attend various churches at various times but have YET to find ONE that I would feel COMFORTABLE becoming a PART of. For there is MUCH MORE to BEING a 'part of The Church' than simply ''showing up'' on Sunday morining. And can you IMAGINE ME ''being'' a member of ANY 'church' that you are familiar with? Hmmmmmm....... might not be a 'good' thing for THEM or ME.

And guys, I do NOT only speak of the things of God on this forum. I speak of LITTLE else to ANYONE. I do NOT watch or partake in sports, (I use to), I do NOT watch 'Nascar', I do not do much of ANYTHING but READ, work and spend an enormous amount of time here on the forums, (comparitively speaking). So I have LITTLE in common with those that 'live FOR this world'.

I have a number of friends that can ONLY put up with SO MUCH of what I have to offer. We have SO LITTLE in common now days that I quickly 'BORE them to TEARS' with my; what is to them, MONOTONY.

One is a Physics Professor at a local university here in Orlando. Another is an 'airline Captain', (who just happens to BE Jewish). And another that sets up sound stages for events such as Microsoft Conventions, Stage Plays and such, (a former Musician that was once even ask to become the drummer for Boston, true story).

So PLEASE forgive me if I have NOT found a 'better way' to follow where I am led. But I am where I AM DESPITE myself. Fortunately for me, for if I had continued down the 'road I was traveling' I would MOST LIKELY not be here today.

Extemeist? Not intentionally. Puritan? By NO MEANS. Basically just another LOST SOUL that would be DOOMED to 'death' if it weren't for my Savior and a God that loves me.

But I DO have questions. Questions that HAVEN'T been answered YET to a 'sense of satisfaction' that makes them CLEAR enough to BE SURE OF. That is ALL.

MEC

 

[biblecatholic]

Mec,


I'll agree to an extent with some of what you are saying But only that we shouldn't listen to bad music.

Led Zepplin has satanic rituals during there concerts and much of the music is demonic that is popular. Alot of the rappers have names that are Ja or JAh- and they are calling themselves I AM... and the influence that demonic music has on souls is real. Now not everyone will be effected the same and some not as much as others...some it will help push them over the edge and others it really doesn't phase... I could go on and on on this....but as against evil music I am for music that gives glory to God.......

 

[Imagican]

Stove,

Doing well, my brother. Thanks for asking.

What then would make music Holy or unholy? Would it be God’s presence or absense, or would it be our awareness of God’s presence or absence?

Now THIS is 'what' I have been WAITING for, (sort of). You are an 'astute' observer, my friend. For that is PRETTY close to EXACTLY what I have been 'looking for'.

YES, but MORE to the point, is it 'something' that would be ACCEPTABLE to God.

We have been offered MUCH that has been offered for OUR OWN PROTECTION. MOST of The Word has been offered AS INSTRUCTION. Some people simply see the Bible 'as a story'. Others, a bit more 'understanding' SEE that it is BASICALLY an 'instruction manual'. The PROBLEM being that it's in a 'bunch of pieces'. One is FORCED to 'hunt' for answers, (the deeper ones), in MANY different PLACES in The Bible.

Some things are NOT EXACT or SPECIFIC, (times HAVE changed and MUCH that we encounter TODAY could not EVEN have been IMAGINED by those of the past). but I believe that if we 'seek' dilligently ENOUGH, that 'the answers ARE THERE'.

Music is ONE such item that we have been offered LITTLE understanding of so far as the Written Word. A few 'bits and pieces' but these MOSTLY dealing with SPECIFIC music offered under SPECIFIC circumstances.

Is there ANY doubt that MUCH of the music offered today would have been deemed WORTHY of the 'death penalty' durring MUCH of the history of God's relationship with MAN. Most certainly, NO ONE would have DREAMED of singing songs of PRAISE for Satan in ancient Israel, Rome; for the past couple of thousand years, or even in America three hundred years ago. I THINK that I SHOULD be on 'safe ground' with this statement.

I have hessitated to offer into the discussion RIGHTEOUS music for the sake of discernment of a 'couple of points FIRST'. FIRST: we MUST be ABLE to establish that there IS 'unholy music' and 'holy' music, BEFORE we can even BEGIN to attempt to offer DiSTINCTION 'between the two'.

Stove, you have hit 'pretty' close. The 'presence' of God................. I don't KNOW that that IS possible with man. But you have offered what MANY 'feel'. That the 'music' that they choose to listen to brings them 'closer' to God. Hmmmmmm.......but is that 'really' what it DOES? For often what is sung is NOT what God has offered us, but what we have 'perceived' of Him. And being CARNAL in nature, MOST, (almost ALL), that we KNOW is based on the FLESH.

I'm NOT going to ask any other questions in this one. I'm going to leave it HERE. I have assured Vic that I am going to 'wrap it up' and I shall.........But NOT YET. Let me sum up my thoughts and then 'be done with it'.

Thanks agains Stove,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Mec,


I'll agree to an extent with some of what you are saying But only that we shouldn't listen to bad music.

Led Zepplin has satanic rituals during there concerts and much of the music is demonic that is popular. Alot of the rappers have names that are Ja or JAh- and they are calling themselves I AM... and the influence that demonic music has on souls is real. Now not everyone will be effected the same and some not as much as others...some it will help push them over the edge and others it really doesn't phase... I could go on and on on this....but as against evil music I am for music that gives glory to God.......

Thank you for the input. You are ABSOLUTELY right in that one MUST 'partake' of the music for it to HAVE an 'influence' one way or the other. But that you recognize this is a 'positive' understanding.

MEC

 

[biblecatholic]

Thank you for the input. You are ABSOLUTELY right in that one MUST 'partake' of the music for it to HAVE an 'influence' one way or the other. But that you recognize this is a 'positive' understanding.

MEC

I would even say that the effects of "evil music" can even be felt through a desensitizing... and even believers can be effected, even if they don't think they're partaking. Depending on the open doors they have in there own life through wounds, sins, etc there can be an opening for the demonic if these factors are there.

 

[handy]

Although I said I was going to bow out of this discussion, this discussion so parallels the one about art, that I'm going to respond to a post on that one here. This works because Mike has brought up about jewlery here as well as there. Plus, although the words are slightly different, let's admit it, it's the same tune.

(Perhaps that was a bad anaology given the topic of the thread? :-? )

Anyway, OK about jewlery now.

1 Peter 3:3, Paul clearly and unequivocably instructs all women NOT to. . .

wear clothes.

Yes, he really does. The Greek states, "hos kosmos esto ou esto", which translates to "whose adornment let it not be..." and included in the instruction of what not to adorn oneself with is "emploke thrix", the braiding of the hair; "kai perithesis"; the wearing of gold (jewelry) and "endusis himation" the putting on of apparel. Apparel translated is "garment" of any sort. It encompasses tunics, rainment, garments, clothing, robes.

Mike, I'm trying to make a point here, and it is a very important one: You said earlier "I have simply brought to mind questions that we SHOULD be able to answer IF we are to 'teach' our brothers and sisters TRUTH concerning these subjects. I KNOW it's a 'tricky' one."

First of all, we have answered your questions, several times now and in several ways. Just not in the way you apparently want us to answer. So far no one has agreed with you that all music that we could possibly produce is so tainted with sin that we ought not produce it. Or, since we cannot possibly know what Jesus looked like, and sin we are all such sinners ANY production of art with a representative image of Jesus on it must be bad, and for that matter, since we are all such sinners any art of any kind, must be wrong because we cannot create in the way God creates. So, yes, we are answering your questions, we're just not agreeing with you in regards to the answers.


But, more importantly is this idea that we are to teach our brothers and sisters truth concerning these subjects. What makes you so sure you've stumbled upon the truth here. You said, "I do NOT mean to SOUND like I am ANY different than ANY OTHER, (other than PERHAPS in UNDERSTANDING)."

I submit to you that it is your understanding what is at fault here.

Case in point, the using of 1 Peter 3:3 as some kind of proof text to show that we aren't to wear jewelry. The thing is, if we are going to take a totally litteral interpretation on 1 Peter 3:3 then I guess I have to go nekkie. And nekkie ain't fun in Idaho, especially in March.

When we read the Scriptures, we need to read it with better understanding. By using the whole of the Word, we can see that Paul isn't telling women to wear nothing but long, unbraided, albeit covered hair. Rather he is telling women to not let our adornment be what is external, but rather adorn our hearts with the impresishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, submissiveness to our husbands and chast, respectful behavior. Outward adornment isn't what matters, it is what is adorning one's heart. Just as many men struggle with the visual and can fall into temptation when seeing certain things, women struggle with assessories. We love the shoes, the handbags, the jewelry, the make-up, the new 'do'. God understands how much we women like the baubles and beads and trinkets, and uses Paul (who contrary to popular belief is one of the first and greatest "Feminists") to teach us that we are better off concentrating upon developing inward godly attributes, rather than shopping for deals and BOGO's.

I do understand that you are attempting to raise the issue that we all need to consider why we listen to the music we listen to, or why we select the art we put on our wall, or what jewelry we wear. And, in that, just that, submitting that our motives for what we wear, or listen to, or eat or drink or drive or whatever we do, are important, in that I'm in full and complete agreement with you. Motives for behavior are very important. My problem isn't raising the question of motive, so much as your insistance that we need to abstain from music, art, jewelry...those are the three that are raised in this thread, but I'm sure we could go on books, television and movies, video games, etc. etc. etc.

I know in the other thread regarding art, where I brought up the issue of hedging the Law, you took it as me accusing you. Believe me, I'm not trying to accuse you so much as to point out where you are going wrong and why you are not garnering much agreement with these 'questions' regarding music, art and what to wear.

Here is a good text to ponder over, when wondering when we've gone from questioning motives for behavior (which I agree is always a good thing) to falling into the trap of hedging the Law:

Colossians 2:20 - 3:3

If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which all refer to things destined to perish with the using)- in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasment and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against flesly indulgence.

If then you have been raise up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

I wanted to edit out some misspells, clarify that when I say we, I just mean the 'we' that are disagreeing, not everybody. Maybe, just to make it really clear that I'm not trying to speak for others, just take "we" as meaning me and. . .well, I don't have a mouse in my pocket, but I do have my dog laying on my feet. ;-)

 

[Imagican]

I hope that this doesn't 'count' as one of my 'last posts', but I feel COMPELED to answer this one as 'separate' from what I am preparing:

Firstly handy, the scripture that I quoted is NOT alone in it's OFFERING of women NOT wearing JEWELRY. You err in the 'thinking' that I have pick but ONE scripture out of the ENTIRE word to make such a point. I am NOT here to quibble over 'words' whether 'Greek', Hebrew, or English. IS THE WORD OF GOD IN The Bible or is it NOT. CAN one COME to 'understanding' BY what is OFFERED in The Word?

If you answer these questions honestly then your answer MUST be YES, the Word IS able to offer the TRUTH in 'discernment' concerning ISSUES that it addresses and QUITE often EVEN give ANSWERS to those that it DOESN'T directly STATE.

Now, do you wish for me to offer ALL the scriptures that STATE that those women that WiSHED to be LOOKED at by MEN wore jewelry. Or would you like me to offer the scriptures that STATE the 'exact' SAME thing as the one I offered. And IF I am ABLE to offer ALL that I submit that I am ABLE, would that MAKE you point VALID? Or would it offer PROOF that what YOU offered in contradiction is WRONG?

I leave it to YOU to either RECANT your previous statement OR challenge me TO PROVE what I have offered. Either way, I have NOT been MISLED by the scriptures. I am PERFECTLY able to understand WHAT they have offered concerning this issue and WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT: WHY.

So, I leave it to you Dora. Admit that what you offered concerning the scripture that I quoted was MISLEADING or just ASK and I will offer MUCH scripture that states the EXACT SAME THING. Or, will you simply state that THESE were ALL mistranslated as WELL?

MEC

 

[handy]

In no way did I say that these verses are mistranslated. They are not, Peter (not Paul, my bad) really does say that we are not to adorn ourselves with among other things, clothing. Paul actually did say for women to wear clothes, but that they be proper and modest. (1 Tim 2:9) However both texts, Peters in 1 Peter 3 and Paul's in 1 Timothy 2 contain the same message: that we women are not to concentrate upon our outward appearances, but rather to work on our inward hearts so that we grow in godliness.

I won't recant. Sorry but I just don't think I said anything amiss here. (Well, other than the typo of attributing Peter's words to Paul's.) I seriously doubt if you can provide any texts regarding what we women are wear or not wear, that I'm not already familiar with, but if you want to, go right ahead.

The thing is, Mike, you're still missing the point. I brought up Colossians 2:20-3:3 for a reason, the reason being that what you propose here: Don't wear jewelry, don't sing praises, don't carve a statue, might have the appearance of godliness and wisdom, but appearances can be deceiving. All these things are things which are temporal and will pass away. What to eat, what to wear, what to put on our bodies. All are like grass. We need to do as the Apostle exhorts us to do, set our minds upon the things above, not on these things that have no eternal value.

Again, I do agree with what you have to say regarding our motives for what we do or wear. If I were to put on my wedding ring and matching earrings (which is about the only jewelry I ever wear) for no other purpose than to flaunt myself before men, then I agree, I would have a problem. But, I wear my wedding ring and matching earrings for no other purpose than to please my husband and show my appreciation of his love for me. My jewelry is a symbol of our marriage and love for each other. The ring and earrings will disappear one day. Even my marriage will only last until the day one of us dies. But, the love and growth that I have experienced at being a wife to my husband has brought me even closer to God, and THAT will stay with me forever.

 

[Imagican]

Dora,

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING 'wrong' with ANYONE that is 'pure of heart' partaking of ANYTHING that God has offered for our 'righteous pleasure'. What we MUST be ABLE to discern though, is ARE our hearts pure and the REASON that we CHOOSE to partake 'righteous'.

For a woman to wear that which is meant to enhance her 'true' beauty, there is NOTHING 'wrong' with this in it's INNOCENCE. But, for a woman to 'dress to impress', to 'catch the EYES of men', to outwardly SHOW her 'worldly ways' IS 'unrighteous'.

I have been scorned in the past for offering this but I feel compeled to offer it again; We WORSHIP that which we adore. We WORSHIP that which we would 'spend our efforts and time to OBTAIN'. Whether it be 'righteousness with God', or that 'gorgeous set of earrings' in the mall.

In this LIGHT, we MUST make certain that our LUSTS are NOT the 'purpose' through which we ACT. This is pertinent as pertains to 'music', 'art', jewelry, (just another 'form' of 'art'), even the car that we drive, the clothes that we wear, the watch that we COVET. It doesn't matter WHAT 'material thing' it is that we possess or WISH TO; we MUST be 'sure' that our INTENTIONS are 'pure' or it is but VANITY.

I KNOW that the churches DON'T teach such now days. That the pastors are OFTEN as 'guilty' of the 'fulfillment' of their 'lusts' as ANY in the congregation. And by exhibiting this 'affection', they are TEACHING others that it's OK.

I am NOT ANYTHING other than a man attempting to learn and understand HOW we are ABLE to 'please God'. I would be the LAST person able to confess that I AM ABLE. I HOPE through learning and understanding, (mostly guidance through The Holy Spirit), that ONE DAY I WILL be ABLE to 'do that' which IS pleasing to Our Father. I'm simply ATTEMPTING to 'come to certain TRUTHS' that I FEEL 'must' be understood BEFORE we are ABLE to fulfill what we are SUPPOSE to in this life. And PERSONAL PLEASURE for the sake of SELF is certainly NOT what we have been instructed to BE 'a part of'.

There IS pleasure to be obtained through The Spirit. But there is MUCH more available that is NOT offered 'through The Spirit'. We MUST be ABLE to discern the DIFFERENCE to KEEP from falling into the 'snares' offered by our 'advisary'. And often, his 'tricks' are SO ellusive that even the DEVOTED are unable to discern them IF they are NOT of a 'satisfactory understanding'.

I have offered about ALL that I am able in this conversation. Forgive me for being 'so harsh' or 'hard headed'.

To sum it up: Music CAN indeed be 'inspired' from 'either ABOVE or below'. What we NEED to 'beware of' is JUST THIS: Satan is a 'slickster'. He is THERE to emulate, (offer FALSE emulation), of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that God IS and DOES. He has been 'given' this ability for a 'time'. And often EVEN those with the BEST intentions are able to be 'ensnared' by the devil.

The examples are numerous throughout the Bible where one THOUGHT that they were doing something that was relatively benign, only to find out that it was COMPLETELY contrary to the PLEASING of God.

Moses was denied entering the 'promised land' for a simple 'slip of his staff'. David's people were punished attrociously for him simply 'counting his people', (God's people). The examples are too numerous to list here, so suffice is to say, it's NOT always the OBVIOUS that we MUST be prepared to discern. Sometimes it IS the VERY subtlty of the 'discernment' that is SO crucial as to WHO we follow.

Thanks for your patience folks and the participation in this thread.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Salve Regina = inspired from above.
Who Let the Dogs Out = inspired from below.

Next question.