Muslims can't handle it, can you?

[John Zain]

My Bottom Line … WHY I believe what I do

The Bible is unbelievable and mysterious … with its’ incredible miracles,
with its’ unique salvation without good works, with its’ Triune God,
with its’ sinless Man dying in our place for our sins, etc.

But, GOD is quite unbelivable also …
GOD is everywhere, knows everything, sees everything, and is all-powerful.
Not only that , but GOD says …
“ My thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
So, I believe it is foolish to judge GOD about anything. Who are we to judge GOD?

I also believe it’s foolish to use our intellect and logic to decide on spiritual things
… because throughout history, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
(Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25)

In 1984, I was “born again (from above)” (John 3:3, 7 and 1 Peter 1:23).
A few months later, many of my ideas, attitudes, and priorities changed,
and I began devouring the Bible. The Holy Spirit was within me
(John 14:16-26, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, etc.),
and He convinced me that what I was reading is the truth.
It was that feeling of “I know that I know that I know.”
6 years later, God healed me instantly of a major muscle sprain in my back.
He was preparing me to have great faith in His powers of the miraculous.

9 years later, I received the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
I became a different person with incredible faith, boldness, and spiritual power.
The world-famous evangelist, Smith Wigglesworth (1859-1947), who was
used mightily of GOD in the healing ministry (even raising of the dead), said:
“If you do not receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
you are living in a weak and impoverished condition.”

Here’s an interesting story for you to consider:
Years ago, I became involved in the “Which Bible version is best?” controversy.
After a few weeks, GOD told me to run from this … to not waste my time with it.
My take on this is that all Bibles have the major important doctrines,
and the minor differences are just not worth getting excited about,
especially when the truth about it is not provable anyway.

GOD began sending me to many hundreds of small remote Bulgarian villages.
And for 15 years …
I experienced many of GOD’s miracles of provision, protection, and anointing.
Here is one of the gospel tracts that He led me to distribute specifically to Muslims.
If you are curious about it, please click here …
http://www.wmpress.org/hkg_text/engnkjv.htm#HOW

So, over the years …
GOD has proven that I have the right GOD, the right gospel, the right “Book”, etc.

 

[Alabaster]

You have a great testimony!

Muslims for the most part cannot grasp the truths you have outlined, but in the last days, more and more Muslims are now receiving personal visions of Jesus and His truth in order to break off the stranglehold of Islam on them.

We need to pray for them!

 

[francisdesales]

I also believe it’s foolish to use our intellect and logic to decide on spiritual things
… because throughout history, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
(Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25]

I am not sure if I am understanding your intent correctly, but it is this thinking that makes Islam "unreformable" and can NEVER come to grips with the West. This point of view you state is Islam - and there is no use in trying to use logic or understanding to figure out what Justice or Righteousness is, because God (Allah) uses a different yardstick - meaning, that God does not use logic... Thus, killing innocent unbelievers is never going to be considered "wrong" or subject to interpretation. Either you are a devout Muslim in a position to do such things or you are an apathetic Muslim who applauds when such things happen. If you are Muslim that has a problem with that, you are becoming a Western and have left the realm of Islam.

Rational thought is NOT against Christian thinking, precisely BECAUSE the Word, the Logos, IS REASONING ITSELF...

Regards

 

[theLords]

I am not sure if I am understanding your intent correctly, but it is this thinking that makes Islam "unreformable" and can NEVER come to grips with the West. This point of view you state is Islam - and there is no use in trying to use logic or understanding to figure out what Justice or Righteousness is, because God (Allah) uses a different yardstick - meaning, that God does not use logic... Thus, killing innocent unbelievers is never going to be considered "wrong" or subject to interpretation. Either you are a devout Muslim in a position to do such things or you are an apathetic Muslim who applauds when such things happen. If you are Muslim that has a problem with that, you are becoming a Western and have left the realm of Islam.

Rational thought is NOT against Christian thinking, precisely BECAUSE the Word, the Logos, IS REASONING ITSELF...

Regards

I think you misinterpreted his post. He is a Christian proclaiming why he is a Christian ;)

 

[theLords]

PS- I really enjoyed your post John Z!

 

[jasoncran]

God never said that logic or writing or thinking was bad. only commended what we were to contemplate on.

if Logic and order is bad and evil, then our bible must be way off as it makes sense to those that are in the fold.

God has an order to him.

 

[francisdesales]

I think you misinterpreted his post. He is a Christian proclaiming why he is a Christian ;)

Christians do not profess to call logic bad or evil. That sounds more like a Fundamentalist scare tactic "don't think, leave your brain at the door..."

Naturally, God is transcendant, but it doesn't follow that we cannot utilize the logic and reasoning that God gave us to know something about God - or perhaps more correctly, know something about what God is not...

Regards

 

[theLords]

Christians do not profess to call logic bad or evil. That sounds more like a Fundamentalist scare tactic "don't think, leave your brain at the door..."

Naturally, God is transcendant, but it doesn't follow that we cannot utilize the logic and reasoning that God gave us to know something about God - or perhaps more correctly, know something about what God is not...

Regards

He's not saying that at all my dear! I think you are misunderstanding what he's truly saying.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Of course, only the OP can explain what he meant, but I read his post and understood that he was saying that "the wisdom [logic, reasoning] of the world" is foolishness.

The logic, reasoning, wisdom of God is Holy!

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD

Clearly, to say that logic and reasoning are evil goes contrary to Scripture.

Just my :2cents

“ My thoughts are not your thoughts,
nor are your ways My ways”, says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are My ways higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)
So, I believe it is foolish to judge GOD about anything. Who are we to judge GOD?
I also believe it’s foolish to use our intellect and logic to decide on spiritual things
… because throughout history, man has always been a spiritual idiot.
“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.”
(Proverbs 14:12 and 16:25)

 

[jasoncran]

francis sadly the rcc is far better at that logic used in arguments, just look at the leading apologists many have been catholics.

ie gk.chesterson, dnesh d'sousa, and j.r.r. tolkien( he didnt do apolegetics but his lotr does have an apolegetic feel do it)

all of them were catholics.

the protestant do have ravi zacharias and josh mcdowell.

its a shame the lord uses logic and reasoning

ie this verse come let us reason together though thy raiment be crimson red it shall be white as snow.

thats in isaiah.

 

[theLords]

its a shame the lord uses logic and reasoning

ie this verse come let us reason together though thy raiment be crimson red it shall be white as snow.

thats in isaiah.

Holy Spirit led minds think alike, Mr. Cranberry!

 

[jasoncran]

lol, that is too funny

 

[theLords]

You make a great Cranberry, shall I start singing again, Mr. Cranberry???????

 

[jasoncran]

Alabaster and I were discussing this un another thread a few days ago - and I wonder what your guys' oppinions on it are:

Alabasters argument was essentially that the Bible is the truth and there is no way one could read it, and by use of logic and analytical reasoning come away with the idea that the bible is false. Rather, one who reads the bible and rejects it, does so in pure unadulterated rebellion, and nothing more.

Now I know that many of you are of the opinion that one who reads the bible and does come away with a logical conclusion that it is false, has come to a faulty conclusion.

But is it even possible for one to read the Bible and come away with a honest logical conclusion that the book is not of God? Or is this person just lying to himself about his conclusion?

eyes are blinded and hasnt been opened, we all must have faith, and none can convince another of the truth. they truth will speak for its self.

i cant make you see what the bible says is the truth, thats Gods job, and until then you wont.

 

[francisdesales]

Im kinda confused at what "Muslims cant handle" in your testimony?

And Francis - I think your saying Muslims are "unreformable"? This is true - but the things you speak of that need reform (i.e the killing of innocents via terrorism) are the result of modern "reformers" - a in depth study of historical and traditional Jihad as understood by Muslims for 1300 years goes against that which you say needs reforming - so basicly what is needed to "reform" this new interpretation of Islam is a return to the classical understandings of war and dealings with the Kuffar.

No, with all due respect, the "classic" understanding of Islam is INDEED what we see today amongst what the West calls "terrorists", while moderate Islamic reformers are seen as "progressive innovators". Yours is the siren-song to the liberal West looking for any sign that perhaps Muslims and the West can co-exist and can continue to offer appeasement (which never works in cultural, cold wars...) Appeasement only allows our culture to be further infiltrated with this method and style of thinking, that quite frankly, sees the Constitution as a filthy rag to be trampled upon (since it promotes freedoms that sharia specifically condemns).

Are you familiar with the Mu'tazilites? It was a rational school of theology that sought to subject revelation to reason (as the West does), one that received official sanction for a short time in the ninth century. It is to this group that the supposed moderate Muslims call upon to claim that there was some subversion of this style of Islam. Unfortunately, the Mu'tazilites were overthrown by the Ash'arites, the orthodox and fundamentalist school of theologians who rejected Natural Law, free will, and the primacy of reason (sound familiar?)

The problem in the understanding of modern Islam is that supposedly, the Ash'arites deformed the understanding of Islam, much as the modern fundamentalists supposedly do today. However, a much stronger case can be laid out for it being the other way around, that the Ash'arites represent orthodox and true Islam, while the Mu'tzalites and their "Western" ideas of rational thought and free will were innovations. Mu'tzalites can make "Western" claims that God IS reason, but they had precious LITTLE SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY (I am utilizing the argument that the Koran is Scripture for the purpose of THIS argument, not that I agree with the idea) to make such a judgment.

This is true even today. Hard-line Muslims are able to quote numerous amounts of Koranic verses for their point of view, while the "Islam is a religion of peace" apologists can cite very few. Unfortunately, after watching debates, it becomes apparent that the fundamentalists can cite dozens of verses while the "religion of peace" Muslims are whittled down to a three verse playbook...

In addition to this, the Fundamentalist case is further advanced by Hadith, reports of the sayings and doings of Muhammad, supposedly transmitted orally and then written down. Like the Sira, the Hadith confirms the fundamentalist interpretations of the Koran. Accordingly, it is not surprising that al-Bukhari, the most highly regarded compiler of the Hadith, dismissed the Mu'tazalite position.

Coincidently (or not so coincidently...) the six major Hadith collections were put together during the SAME NINTH CENTURY that saw the opening and subsequently closing of the mind of Islam. It seems likely that the Ash'arites were able to win their "debate" with the Mu'tazilites in part because they had the "evidence" of the newly compiled Hadith to back them up, words from the prophet himself...

And so, it is a pipe dream to think that the Muslim "mind" can be "re-opened", given the thorough defeat of reason by the Sira and the Hadith, with an overwhelming number of citations that do not support "the religions of peace". Those who are "less devout" are always ready to show their support when a "more devout" Muslim takes the Koran seriously and wages jihad on non-believers.

Frankly, there is little reason to believe that the "opening" of the Muslim mind can ever be "re-captured", and thus, the West needs to stop wasting their time pursuing false hopes during an age where Muslim activists and stealth jihadists will use the time to further extend the reach of Islam deep into our society. Only now is the West beginning to wake up to this reality...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

He's not saying that at all my dear! I think you are misunderstanding what he's truly saying.

Let me cite what he said...

I also believe it’s foolish to use our intellect and logic to decide on spiritual things
… because throughout history, man has always been a spiritual idiot.

Citing Scriptures out of context is not helpful. One Corinthians is speaking of non-believers, not Christians. Those who utilize the logic of the WORLD, (such as "there is no way a God would allow Himself to become a man") NOT the fact that man cannot decide spiritual things.

The point above by the poster says nothing about the person who rejects faith. There is no distinction made between Christian and pagan, but rather, MEN IN GENERAL. He says "OUR INTELLECT" "OUR LOGIC". This includes yours and mine. Christian logic and intellect.

Clearly, to say that logic and reasoning are evil goes contrary to Scripture.

Just my :2cents

Which is why I posted what I did. Too many Fundamentalists are fearful of logical thought and reasoning, since they cannot see how faith and reason can co-exist. Like Muslims

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

francis sadly the rcc is far better at that logic used in arguments, just look at the leading apologists many have been catholics.

ie gk.chesterson, dnesh d'sousa, and j.r.r. tolkien( he didnt do apolegetics but his lotr does have an apolegetic feel do it)

all of them were catholics.

the protestant do have ravi zacharias and josh mcdowell.

its a shame the lord uses logic and reasoning

ie this verse come let us reason together though thy raiment be crimson red it shall be white as snow.

thats in isaiah.

Paul uses logic to show that even the pagans can know God and His invisible attributes in Romans 1 through creation. We don't need a Bible to tell us SOMETHING about God, according to those verses. We can know God exists by logical argument.

Regards

 

[theLords]

Let me cite what he said...

I also believe it’s foolish to use our intellect and logic to decide on spiritual things
… because throughout history, man has always been a spiritual idiot.

Citing Scriptures out of context is not helpful. One Corinthians is speaking of non-believers, not Christians. Those who utilize the logic of the WORLD, (such as "there is no way a God would allow Himself to become a man") NOT the fact that man cannot decide spiritual things.

The point above by the poster says nothing about the person who rejects faith. There is no distinction made between Christian and pagan, but rather, MEN IN GENERAL. He says "OUR INTELLECT" "OUR LOGIC". This includes yours and mine. Christian logic and intellect.



Which is why I posted what I did. Too many Fundamentalists are fearful of logical thought and reasoning, since they cannot see how faith and reason can co-exist. Like Muslims

Regards

We seem to be agreeing here, which is why this is baffling

That's exactly what I said ;)

I just took the OP's post to mean "our [fleshly] reasoning" because he cited Isaiah 55:8-9 before stating that we shouldn't use logic to get to God. Which is why the Scripture is not quoted out of context as I was referring to unbelievers

We're agreeing, my dear :yes

I suppose the OP needs to explain what he meant or edit his post for clarity.

 

[jasoncran]

Paul uses logic to show that even the pagans can know God and His invisible attributes in Romans 1 through creation. We don't need a Bible to tell us SOMETHING about God, according to those verses. We can know God exists by logical argument.

Regards

of course, that is why a theres no true athiest, if they claim to be that god cant exist then they are either ignorant of the logicall error and also or unwilling to admit that god is real and thus lying.

more likely they are agnostic.

 

[theLords]

of course, that is why a theres no true athiest, if they claim to be that god cant exist then they are either ignorant of the logicall error and also or unwilling to admit that god is real and thus lying.

more likely they are agnostic.

I had a professor who stated this as well. Wow, this board is great for jarring my memory. I love it

 

[theLords]

I am not one of those "Isalm means Peace" Muslims - I believe Jihad has its place in Islam - and I also agree with you that Islam and the west are ideologically incompatible - on an individual level, a Muslim or a small minority can coexist in the west, and the Muslim jurists have even made stipulations regarding their living in the land of the non Muslims. These legal guidelines should be followed - and if followed, peaceful coexistence can work. If the Muslim Population becomes the majority - and those Muslims seek an islamic state - war could break out and would be Islamicly Justified.

:shocked!

If this is the case, why do you mock the West when legitimate fears of Islam taking over through means of jihad arise?