Must one Believe to be saved ?

[Wings]

Savedbygrace57, Elijah23, Mcgyver, Sinthesis, Montanaviking,
Warhorse, Eventide, D4Christ, Alabaster, Sam21, Stevebolts, Ada,

wings:

Yes, imputed righteousness is not a response for the actions of men, but for the action of Christ having been made sin [ a sin offering]
2 cor 5:
21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God showed Abraham that Christ was His righteousness based upon the work of Christ at the cross, even though at that time the cross was future, but in the purpose of God, Christ was slain from the foundation, so His righteousness was imputed before the foundation..

Hello Savedbygrace,

Thank you for your further explanation, but may I just question the fact that although Christ was slain from before the foundation of the world. On hearing the Word of God concerning this truth, Abraham would also need to have believed that truth in order for it to be appropriated by God on Abraham's behalf.

For without faith it is impossible to please God, and faith comes by hearing the Word of God and believing it, doesn't it?

'Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.' Rom 5:18

The gift of righteousness 'came upon all men', but as we know not all have received it, that is because it was not received through faith, it was not 'heard with faith' - in other words not believed.

Sorry to be so long-winded Savedbygrace.

In Christ our Saviour,
Wings

 

[Wings]

Hi Wings. Here is the full scripture for you to review.

Romans 4 (NLT)


Abraham was considered righteous before he was circumcised (an outward expression of one's faith). But he was not considered righteous before he believed.

Salvation is a free gift from God thru Christ for all sinners. Those who believe in the message--all who confess and believe in Christ--will receive this gift.

Though this gift is offered to everyone, God in His Wisdom knows some will reject His gift. But as a fair God He still offers it to everyone. It reminds me of how parents will offer their children choices, even though we know some of our kids will make the wrong choice. We all have the choice to accept (recieve) God's gift by beleiving or to reject the gift.

Blessings,
Dee

Thank you Dee very much.

In Christ Jesus
Wings

 

[Wings]

Hi Wings,

2 Corin 5 (NLT)


Note that the verse doesn't say Christ was an offering that made us right with God, as if it our righteous was complete the moment Christ became an offering. It says could be made right, indicating the possibility of becoming right with God. (ie. prior to "becoming" you were not)

Could you be righteous because of Christ's offering? Yes. Could you not be righteous? Yes. The difference is a matter of belief. Abraham only became or was declared righteous the moment he beleive. His belief demonstated his faith, this is why he is called the father of all those who believe.

Blessings,
Dee

Thank you again Dee. That is pretty clear isn't it!!

PRAISE GOD

In Christ Jesus
Wings

 

[Sinthesis]

That was quite an impressive string of persuasive posts D4Christ.

 

[savedbygrace57]

wings:

Abraham would also need to have believed that truth in order for it to be appropriated by God on Abraham's behalf.

The thing was already True, God revealed it to Him... God revealed to Abraham that He had made Him a Father of Many Nations and that Through His seed [Christ] all nations would be Blessed. Now Abraham did believe, but that which He now Believed was already a given Fact..

In gen 12:


1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

You think God would tell a unjustifed man that His Seed would be the Saviour of the World ? No, He was Already Jusified before God, and God revealed it to Him, and Gave Him Faith to believe it supernaturally..

 

[savedbygrace57]

wings:

The gift of righteousness 'came upon all men', but as we know not all have received it,

All the men it came upon received it, it was not offered to them but came upon them...

Just like judgement came upon all men unto condemnation..they did not have a choice did they to receive it ? It came upon them..

The phrase Came upon denotes God's Sovereignty reckoning it so because of the Action of the Head..

 

[Wings]

Hello Savedbygrace,

Thank you for responding. I believe that 'foreknowledge' is the key to this debate, and to all argument concerning 'election' etc.,

God has 'Foreknowledge', and therefore knows who will believe and who will not, it is because of this that He was able to mark out beforehand men like Abraham for the role that he was to play in God's plan and purpose.

The same applies to ourselves. GOD KNOWS whether we will believe or not, and so He is able to pre-determine such things as our 'inheritance', 'adoption', and our 'conformation to the likeness of His Son.' etc., as He tells us in His Word.

'Foreknowledge', comes before predestination or calling, and explains how God is able to mark off beforehand.

Salvation is not a pre-determmined choice of God. He provided the MEANS of salvation, through the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ our Saviour.

-----------------------------

Finally, if what you say is true Savedbygrace, concerning (Rom 5:18)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Then 'judgement came upon all men' (so all are condemned)
and, 'the free gift came upon all men' (so all come unto 'justification of life')

* Is that what you are wishing to convey?

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head

Wings

 

[Wings]

'He came unto his own,
and his own received him not.
But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:'

(John 1:11,12)​

 

[savedbygrace57]

wings:

God has 'Foreknowledge',

God's foreknowledge is premised upon His Predetermined counsel acts 2:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[savedbygrace57]

'He came unto his own,
and his own received him not.
But as many as received him,
to them gave he power
to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on his name:' ​

(John 1:11,12)​

Why did you ignore my response in post 46 ?

 

[Eventide]

How about taking up our cross and denying ourselves.. do we need to do that or is it optional..?

 

[Wings]

Why did you ignore my response in post 46 ?

Hi there Savedbygrace,

I was not aware that I had ignored a posting of yours. Is this the one you are referring to?

wings:The gift of righteousness 'came upon all men', but as we know not all have received it,


All the men it came upon received it, it was not offered to them but came upon them...

SBG: Just like judgement came upon all men unto condemnation..they did not have a choice did they to receive it ? It came upon them..

The phrase Came upon denotes God's Sovereignty reckoning it so because of the Action of the Head..

I did respond to this Savedbygrace. In the response to you which followed - so (after the broken line):-

Hello Savedbygrace,

Thank you for responding. I believe that 'foreknowledge' is the key to this debate, and to all argument concerning 'election' etc.,

God has 'Foreknowledge', and therefore knows who will believe and who will not, it is because of this that He was able to mark out beforehand men like Abraham for the role that he was to play in God's plan and purpose.

The same applies to ourselves. GOD KNOWS whether we will believe or not, and so He is able to pre-determine such things as our 'inheritance', 'adoption', and our 'conformation to the likeness of His Son.' etc., as He tells us in His Word.

'Foreknowledge', comes before predestination or calling, and explains how God is able to mark off beforehand.

Salvation is not a pre-determmined choice of God. He provided the MEANS of salvation, through the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ our Saviour.

-----------------------------

Finally, if what you say is true Savedbygrace, concerning (Rom 5:18)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Then 'judgement came upon all men' (so all are condemned)
and, 'the free gift came upon all men' (so all come unto 'justification of life')

* Is that what you are wishing to convey?

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head

Wings

I just did not include your quote at the beginning.
Sorry to have confused you.

In Christ
Wings


​

 

[savedbygrace57]

Hi there Savedbygrace,

I was not aware that I had ignored a posting of yours. Is this the one you are referring to?

I did respond to this Savedbygrace. In the response to you which followed this:-

​

I just did not include your quote at the beginning.
Sorry to have confused you.

In Christ
Wings


​

Ok then your response was elusive to the points I made in that post, you went a entirely different direction..

 

[Wings]

How about taking up our cross and denying ourselves.. do we need to do that or is it optional..?

'To the praise of the glory of his grace,
wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.'
(Eph 1:6)

Hello there Eventide,

There is nothing that we have to 'do' is there? (Except 'believe' of course )

For the one all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ has accomplished everything required
for our complete acceptance by God the Father - 'In the Beloved'.

According to God's plan and purpose.

Praise God for His wondrous grace!

In Christ
Wings

 

[Wings]

Ok then your response was elusive to the points I made in that post, you went a entirely different direction..

Hi there Savedbygrace57,

I did not 'go' in a different direction, just 'came' from a different direction,
the point you raised was dealt with 'after the broken line'. Which incidentally
you have not responded to.

Finally, if what you say is true Savedbygrace, concerning (Rom 5:18)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Then 'judgement came upon all men' (so all are condemned)
and, 'the free gift came upon all men' (so all come unto 'justification of life')

* Is that what you are wishing to convey?

In Christ
Wings

 

[Eventide]

Hello there Eventide,

There is nothing that we have to 'do' is there? (Except 'believe' of course )

For the one all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ has accomplished everything required
for our complete acceptance by God the Father - 'In the Beloved'.

According to God's plan and purpose.

Praise God for His wondrous grace!

In Christ
Wings

I agree that we must believe to be saved... and isn't part of believing exactly this.. believing God when He says that if any man comes after Me, that he must take up his cross, deny himself, and follow Me ?

IOW, if we didn't believe that, then do you think that God would seal them with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ie, by baptizing them into His body ?

 

[Wings]

I agree that we must believe to be saved... and isn't part of believing exactly this.. believing God when He says that if any man comes after Me, that he must take up his cross, deny himself, and follow Me ?

IOW, if we didn't believe that, then do you think that God would seal them with the Holy Spirit of promise.. ie, by baptizing them into His body ?

'Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
"If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow me."
Mat 16:24

Hi there Eventide,

Consider the context within which this verse is to be found.
It follows the intervention of Peter, when our Lord in verse 21 says,

'From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples,
how that he must go unto Jerusalem,
and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes,
and be killed, and be raised again the third day.'

Peter's response was a very human one,
borne of the desire to save his beloved Lord from suffering. He said,

'Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him,
saying, Be it far from thee, Lord:
this shall not be unto thee.'
(Mat 16:22)

The rebuke our Lord gave to Peter, was directed at the 'one' who was using Peter's natural concern, to try to deflect our Lord from the purpose for which He had come into the world; which was to do the will of His Heavenly Father. That purpose was to suffer and die, bearing our penalty upon Himself. He says these awful words in v.23:-

'But he turned, and said unto Peter,
"Get thee behind me, Satan:
thou art an offence unto me:
for thou savourest not the things that be of God,
but those that be of men."

Then our Lord tells the disciples in the verse you refer to Eventide,

'Then said Jesus unto his disciples,
If any man will come after me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it:
and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what is a man profited,
if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

This, although having an application that can be made to ourselves in regard to our 'walk' and 'witness'; was at the time it was spoken very much a word for His disciples, who would indeed not only witness His own suffering and death, but also suffer and die themselves in their turn, as they faithfully went on to do the work of Apostles after His death and resurrection.

* So, no we do not have to 'obey' this in order to be accepted by our Heavenly Father, our acceptance is entirely based on the all-sufficiency of our Lord's sacrifice of Himself on our behalf.. For we are so identified with Him in God's sight, that,

When He died, we died
When He was buried, so were we,
When He was quickened and raised, so were we

He died to sin 'once' and now lives before the Father in resurrection life, and in God's sight 'so do we'.

* So we can now walk worthy of this wondrous truth, and in so doing we shall in fact find ourselved obeying the very verse you quoted, but now as those who have been empowered to do so, by the 'outworking' of the power which has been worked 'in' us by the Holy Spirit.

PRAISE GOD

In Christ
Wings

 

[Eventide]

So, no we do not have to 'obey' this in order to be accepted by our Heavenly Father

I wasn't talking about obeying it in order to be saved.. but believing it is true ?

And then of course there is believing it to be true and then not actually obeying it.. another matter entirely right ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

wings:

Hi there Savedbygrace57,

I did not 'go' in a different direction, just 'came' from a different direction,

Its the same thing, either comment on the points or do not ask me any more questions..Thanks..

 

[Wings]

wings:



Its the same thing, either comment on the points or do not ask me any more questions..Thanks..

I have obviously offended you Savedbygrace, and for that I am sorry.

In Christ
Wings