My approach to predestination and salvation

[heymikey80]

Nowhere did Paul or any other NT writer say belief was not a work. But they say just the opposite that beief is a work, Jn 6:27-19 1 Thess 1:3 Gal 5:6 etc.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5 ESV
Paul said belief is not a work. Right there. It's what Scripture says. That settles it.

Did God make men? Yes
Did God make men with a will? Yes
Could God have made men with a better will, one more resistant to sin? Hypothetical question. God simply gave man the ability to choose to do well or not do well, Gen 4:7

Hypothetical? No indeed not!

1- Of course God could create man without greater resistance to sin! He's going to remake us that way, it'd be shallow to think He couldn't do what He's going to do!

2- God's omnipotent, isn't He?

So the conclusion reappears: God's responsible in the same sense no matter the philosophy. Which is a good thing: freewill philosophy was that adopted by Pelagius in times past and it would have quite an effort before it to demonstrate its viewpoint as right, against 1500 years of Christian thought.

If God forced man to be lost against his own will is completely different than God allowing man to choose of his own will to be saved or not. Nite and day difference.

God didn't force man against his own will, people do what they will. So this thinking fails simply on consistency.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5 ESV
Paul said belief is not a work. Right there. It's what Scripture says. That settles it.

Correction: YOU said belief is not a work, Paul did not.

What Paul has said:

Rom 10:10----believeth unto righteousness
Rom 6:16-----obedience unto righteousness

Since there is but only one way to be righteous/saved, the beliveth must be a form of obedience, a work, something done, John 6:27-29 Acts 2:41,44

In the immediate context of of Rom 4:4,5:

verse 4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. "

verse 5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "

The bible speaks of many different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of merit, works of the flesh, works of righteousness, etc. Therefore all works are not the same. When Paul says in v5 "worketh not" nowhere does the context say Paul is including all these different types of works, you are assuming that into the text. Just two chapters later in Rom 6 Paul speaks of "obedience unto righteousness" and how the Romans had "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness". Paul says obedient works are necessary to be righteous/justifed(freed from sin). So your creating a contradiction among scriptures so your intepretation should be rejected as wrong.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45170

Above is a link to BornAgain's thread on "Scripture 101/Not Twisting Scriptures"

Bible context, either remote or immediate, do not contradict themselves as you have Rom 4:4,5 contradicting Rom 6:16-18

In the immediate context of Rom 4:4,5 Paul tells us what type of work he has under consideration. Verse 4 says "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." The only way your reward could be of debt and not of grace is if you worked to merit your savlation by keeping God's law perfectly. If you were able to keep God's law perfectly then you would be perfectly sinless and a perfectly sinless person does not need grace therefore your reward is something owed you. So the type of work Paul is considering are works of merit and not works of God, not works of Satan, not works of the flesh, not works of righeousness/obedience. Again see Rom 6:16-18

Verse 5 Paul is saying to him that does not do works of merit as the worker in verse 4 does but to him that does the work of believing. Belief is a obedient work not a work of merit that Paul was excluding. Since belief is a work Paul could not be excluding all works for then he would be excluding works and verse 5 is a contradiction. Abraham was an example of one who do not do works of merit trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace for Abraham sinned, but Abraham was one who had a obedient, working belief, Heb 11:8

Hypothetical? No indeed not!

Of course it is. It's like asking if God could have created man with 3 heads instead of one, five arms instead of two, eight brains instead of one?

1- Of course God could create man without greater resistance to sin! He's going to remake us that way, it'd be shallow to think He couldn't do what He's going to do!

Ok, since God did not create man as you think He should have, then when man gives into sin it is all God's fault for not making man "better". My sinning is not my fault or my repsonsibility it's all God's fault and culpability. Just let man keep blaming God and see how far that will get man. The truth is God did make man with the ability to choose whereby man does have the ability to choose to do well or choose not to do well, Gen 4:7 And how man chooses is not God's fault. God made man upright but man corrupted himself, Eccl 7:29. You want to blame God for man corrupting himself? Man is made in the image of God, 1 Cor 11:7 Is that not good enough? "I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made" Psa 139:14 But Heymickey80 says you were made flawed for God failed to make you more resistant to sin. Your sins of killing Bathsheba's husband is God's fault and God's fault for not making you more resistant to Bathseba.

2- God's omnipotent, isn't He?

Sure, but it does not mean God is at fault for not creating man in a way you think man should have been made in being more resistant to sin.

So the conclusion reappears: God's responsible in the same sense no matter the philosophy. Which is a good thing: freewill philosophy was that adopted by Pelagius in times past and it would have quite an effort before it to demonstrate its viewpoint as right, against 1500 years of Christian thought.

Wow!! You just go right ahead and put the blame and responsibility of your sinning on God since God failed, according to you, to create you correctly in having more resistance to sinning.
Was it God's fault the man with one talent buried that talent? Did God not create him correctly? But did God create correctly the others that gained more talents?

God didn't force man against his own will, people do what they will. So this thinking fails simply on consistency.

If God did not create man correctly then man's sin are due to God's fault then how can man be blamed for God's failure in creating man incorrectly? If God created man with a totally depraved spirit whereby man can only choose to do evil and be lost, then how can you blame man for the way God forced him to be by creating him totally depraved against the will of man?

 

[heymikey80]

Correction: YOU said belief is not a work, Paul did not.

No, PAUL said belief is not a work. I'm simply quoting him:
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5 ESV
Paul said belief is not a work. Right there. It's what Scripture says. That settles it.

What Paul has said:

Rom 10:10----believeth unto righteousness
Rom 6:16-----obedience unto righteousness

Since there is but only one way to be righteous/saved, the beliveth must be a form of obedience, a work, something done, John 6:27-29 Acts 2:41,44

Nope. As we've discussed, many times obedience involves not doing something. When the Lord tells you to stop working -- do you keep working? No? Then obedience of itself means nothing about working for salvation, doing something for a wage of righteousness or salvation.

Paul also opposes the two here:
Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:31-32 ESV

In the immediate context of of Rom 4:4,5:

verse 4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. "

verse 5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. "

The bible speaks of many different types of works; works of God, works of Satan, works of merit, works of the flesh, works of righteousness, etc. Therefore all works are not the same.

And yet Paul doesn't talk about any of these specifics. It would put words in Paul's mouth to do so with his words.

When Paul says in v5 "worketh not" nowhere does the context say Paul is including all these different types of works, you are assuming that into the text.

You can't assume something is excluded when it's not mentioned. The context points out, "when a man works". It's work. No qualification.

Just two chapters later in Rom 6 Paul speaks of "obedience unto righteousness" and how the Romans had "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness". Paul says obedient works are necessary to be righteous/justifed(freed from sin). So your creating a contradiction among scriptures so your intepretation should be rejected as wrong.

As mentioned a number of times before, obedience is not directly related to working, but to submission.

Bible context, either remote or immediate, do not contradict themselves as you have Rom 4:4,5 contradicting Rom 6:16-18

No, I don't. As you have once again confused me with your opinions, the contradiction you point out is with your opinion, not with my viewpoint.

It's clear that once faith exists, obedience results from the very existence of faith.

But that's just it: obedience results, it's not the cause of faith, and it's not detached from faith.

Paul points to the faith as being for salvation (Ep 2:8-9), and for righteousness (Rom 4:4-5). Obedience results.

Paul never uses "works of merit". It's not Scriptural.

Of course it is. It's like asking if God could have created man with 3 heads instead of one, five arms instead of two, eight brains instead of one?

So you think the Resurrection is hypothetical?

Jesus was raised.

Ok, since God did not create man as you think He should have, then when man gives into sin it is all God's fault for not making man "better". My sinning is not my fault or my repsonsibility it's all God's fault and culpability.

No, didn't say that. In fact I wonder where you got that from. Did you read what I said? I said God is responsible no matter the denials, for what He created. And He has vowed He shall fix it.

Now these are not hypotheticals. They're real. What's real, God has made. What God has promised, that's no hypothetical.

It's long been a mistake to attribute responsibility to only one cause; when in fact there are numerous causes all with responsibility for what comes about

Now back to the issue. The issue is:

1- Of course God could create man without greater resistance to sin! He's going to remake us that way, it'd be shallow to think He couldn't do what He's going to do!

2- God's omnipotent, isn't He?

Neither 1 nor 2 are hypothetical. That obliterates the argument that this is hypothetical. God is real. His promises are real, His Creation is real. So God is really responsible.

 

[Aloysium]

i did not read all the posts, but enough to give me the impression that there a lot of ppl who seem to assume that they will be saved

what is it that makes you so confident . . . that you are choosing him now? . . . so that means he will choose you later

makes me think of the ten virgins, i'm pretty sure the five who did not attend the wedding were really surprised

for me it's a matter of being alert,
i know that i continue to sin and it is something that i must constantly struggle with
in the end, i am not Job, i do not believe i could withstand what he went thru'

just saying not to offend anyone, but giving you the heads up
if you end up one of the lazy virgins crying out to be let in'
i don't think quoting scripture will do you much good

i'm thinking now that i will be one of those not saved
you know what? i still intend to do God's work
at least for now He will be with me

 

[Eugene]

i did not read all the posts, but enough to give me the impression that there a lot of ppl who seem to assume that they will be saved

what is it that makes you so confident . . . that you are choosing him now? . . . so that means he will choose you later

makes me think of the ten virgins, i'm pretty sure the five who did not attend the wedding were really surprised

for me it's a matter of being alert,
i know that i continue to sin and it is something that i must constantly struggle with
in the end, i am not Job, i do not believe i could withstand what he went thru'

just saying not to offend anyone, but giving you the heads up
if you end up one of the lazy virgins crying out to be let in'
i don't think quoting scripture will do you much good

i'm thinking now that i will be one of those not saved
you know what? i still intend to do God's work
at least for now He will be with me

Just a thought, since there's only one name given among men that we must be saved, and that is the name of Jesus, what makes you think your or my name is up to the task? To me our standing in Christ is secure, though our reward and standing is based upon works of righteousness.

We read in Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (This is her works of righteousness)

The five virgins not ready to be a part of the bride remained virgin but they were not ready when the bridegroom came; do you think they were cast into hell? Thanks.

 

[Aloysium]

Just a thought, since there's only one name given among men that we must be saved, and that is the name of Jesus, what makes you think your or my name is up to the task? To me our standing in Christ is secure, though our reward and standing is based upon works of righteousness.

We read in Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (This is her works of righteousness)

The five virgins not ready to be a part of the bride remained virgin but they were not ready when the bridegroom came; do you think they were cast into hell? Thanks.

what you say is reasonable

Jesus came because we are not up to the task; He came to save us all, but within eternity He knows that we are not all saved

Hell would be the emptiness of not being allowed in and having the Bridegroom tell me He did not know me . . . the Bridegroom would not know me if i did not know Him

there is the concept of Purgatory, giving some hope that the rich man in the Lazarus story might still be saved by his concern that the living be spared his destiny;
i don't know but at least in life we always have this option

 

[Eugene]

what you say is reasonable

Jesus came because we are not up to the task; He came to save us all, but within eternity He knows that we are not all saved

Hell would be the emptiness of not being allowed in and having the Bridegroom tell me He did not know me . . . the Bridegroom would not know me if i did not know Him

there is the concept of Purgatory, giving some hope that the rich man in the Lazarus story might still be saved by his concern that the living be spared his destiny; i don't know but at least in life we always have this option

Sorry, I came out of Catholicism and do not believe in Purgatory, but in the faithfulness of my Savior Jesus to keep us who are given to Him. I wrote the following in two parts concerning our security in Christ. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=45800

All are not saved the result of selection and predestination, but God's foreknowledge and because of that we the heirs of salvation are predestinated unto good works and the help provided by God as the result of it.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son; the world is not privileged to this. This is manifest in God's work in us as He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.

I accidently stated that "To me our standing in Christ is secure, though our reward and standing is based upon works of righteousness." It should read that our standing in Christ is secure, but our state is dependent on our works. I.e., our state and/or reward determines our eternal place in Christ.

For instance, Revelation Chapters Two and Three divulge two conditions of the seven churches receiving crowns and five given reprimands needing correction.

Present conditions at the Lord's Day.

Thyatira - Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. The result is that Thyatira is told in Revelation 18:4, ". . Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

Philadelphia - Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Further promises for faithful service.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him . .

Romans 8:17 . . joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Revelation 5:10 . . And hast made us unto our God kings and priests.

Minimum promises of being saved.

Not only were these not kept from tribulation, but came out of it and they will not be kings and priests, but will serve.

Revelation 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

What is their reward? Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple.

 

[heymikey80]

i did not read all the posts, but enough to give me the impression that there a lot of ppl who seem to assume that they will be saved

what is it that makes you so confident . . . that you are choosing him now? . . . so that means he will choose you later

makes me think of the ten virgins, i'm pretty sure the five who did not attend the wedding were really surprised

for me it's a matter of being alert,
i know that i continue to sin and it is something that i must constantly struggle with
in the end, i am not Job, i do not believe i could withstand what he went thru'

just saying not to offend anyone, but giving you the heads up
if you end up one of the lazy virgins crying out to be let in'
i don't think quoting scripture will do you much good

i'm thinking now that i will be one of those not saved
you know what? i still intend to do God's work
at least for now He will be with me

It would depend on how well you knew the one you trusted -- and whether that relationship were with a real person who could save you, right?

That's largely what the Apostles and Jesus both said ... in Scripture try translating "faith/believe" as "reliance/rely", and "know" [a person] as "having a personal relationship" (i.e., it wasn't "know about", the word meant more, "friendship with"), and I think you'll get a better insight into what Greeks heard from the Apostles.

What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete. 1 John 1:1-4 NASB

 

[Carolyn]

SBG, AMEN AND AMEN. I BELIEVE IN BOTH, TOO.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No, PAUL said belief is not a work. I'm simply quoting him:
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:4-5 ESV
Paul said belief is not a work. Right there. It's what Scripture says. That settles it.

There is no verse where Paul said "belief is not a work" It does not exist except in some people's imagination. For in the context, Abraham is an example of one who did not do works of merit, but had an obedient belief, Heb 11:8. So "not of works" excludes only works of merit and not all types of works for belief is a work as seen by Abraham's obedient faith. The context of verse 4 shows that the worker Paul is talking about is doing works of merit trying to make his reward of debt and not of grace. So the works Paul is considering in the context are works of merit. You are assuming 'not of works' excludes all works of all types but you have not proven that. You create a contradiction with Rom 6, Jn 6 that shows belief is a work, obedient works are BEFORE salvation.

Nope. As we've discussed, many times obedience involves not doing something. When the Lord tells you to stop working -- do you keep working? No? Then obedience of itself means nothing about working for salvation, doing something for a wage of righteousness or salvation.

It was an argument you made but never proved. Obedience is doing what was commanded not just thinking about doing..Heb 11:8 "By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. " How did Abraham obey that call? By just thinking about leaving? He obeyed by doing, by leaving.

Paul also opposes the two here:
Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. Rom 9:31-32 ESV

Rom 6 and Rom 10 are just two chapters in Romans were Paul put obedience BEFORE salvation and Paul does not contradict himself.

Rom 9:32 Paul is saying the Jews were keeping the law not by faith but as a matter of works of merit. They were trying to earn salvation making it a debt God would owe them. "For they stumbled at that stumblingstone" the Jews were lost for they rejected Christ and would not have an obedient faith in Him. Moving into chapter 10 Paul is in sorrow that his brethren in the flesh are lost, Rom 10:1 But in Rom 10:3 Paul explains how they can be saved: "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

The Jews were lost for they were "going about to establish their own righteousness" that is, they were doing works of merit as Paul said in Rom 9:32. They could be saved if they would quit doing those works of merit and "submit themselves unto the righteousness of God", that is, obey God's commands. So here in Rom 10:3 Paul makes a clear contrasts between two different types of works; 1 ) works of merit the Jews were doing that do not save and 2) submitting/obeying God's comands that save those Jews. So here is further proof that "not of works" in Rom 4:5 does not, cannot exclude all works for it clearly cannot exclude submitting/obeying God's righteousness (commandmetns). So the context ending in Rom 9 and into Rom 10 proves my point not yours.

And yet Paul doesn't talk about any of these specifics. It would put words in Paul's mouth to do so with his words.

You are trying to think for Paul. Paul knew there were different types of works. We just say a contrast he made between two different types of works in Rom 10:3. And I will keep posting this point for you will not deal with it: Rom 4:4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." The type of work Paul is saying the 'worker' does are works of merit, for works of merit is when one works to keep God's law perfectly whereby his reward is of debt and not of grace. Obedience to God does not earn salvation making it of debt for Abraham was obedient, Heb 11:8,17 but he sinned therefore by his sinning his salvation must be of grace and could never be of debt.

You can't assume something is excluded when it's not mentioned. The context points out, "when a man works". It's work. No qualification.

But Rom 4:4 tells us what type of work the worker does...works of merit trying to make his salvation of debt and not of grace. Since belief is a work, Jn 6:27-29 then 'not of works' cannot exlcude the work f believing for that creates a contradiction. Obedience to Gods will does not earn salvation. Abraham had an obedient faith but it could never make his reward not of grace but of debt for he sinned therefore was in need of grace.

As mentioned a number of times before, obedience is not directly related to working, but to submission.

And submission is doing something. Again from Rom 10:3 for the Jews were not saved for they had not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God, that is, they had not obeyed God's righteous commands.

No, I don't. As you have once again confused me with your opinions, the contradiction you point out is with your opinion, not with my viewpoint.

It's clear that once faith exists, obedience results from the very existence of faith.

But that's just it: obedience results, it's not the cause of faith, and it's not detached from faith.

Paul points to the faith as being for salvation (Ep 2:8-9), and for righteousness (Rom 4:4-5). Obedience results.

Paul never uses "works of merit". It's not Scriptural.

Rom 10:9,10 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

To be saved one must do the obedient works of believing unto righeousness and confessing with the mouth unto salvation. It says unto righteousness/salvation not because of righeousness/salvation. So the works of beliving and confessing with the mouth come BEFORE salvation.

Rom 6:16-18 Paul says you serve either one of two masters, you either serve : 1) sin unto death of 2) obedeince unto righteousness. I serve #2 yet your theology has ruled out 32 for you.
Paul goe son to say the Romans had obeye from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sin. Again obedince came BEFORE being freed from sins/justified/saved.

The three texts of Rom 10:9,10 and Rom 6:16-18 and Rom 10:3 show you are creating a contradiction with what Paul has said for Paul INCLUDED obedient works BEFORE salvation in these texts.

And obedience is an act, it is doing something and not just a mental activity.

In Rom 4:4 Paul does not use the exact phrase "works of merit", but that is the type of work he is describing in that verse when one works to try and merit his salvation making it not of grace. In Rom 4:4 Paul is not saying the worker does works of God, works of righeousness, works of the flesh, works of Satan for Paul is not talking about these type of works.

So you think the Resurrection is hypothetical?

Jesus was raised.

No, didn't say that. In fact I wonder where you got that from. Did you read what I said? I said God is responsible no matter the denials, for what He created. And He has vowed He shall fix it.

Now these are not hypotheticals. They're real. What's real, God has made. What God has promised, that's no hypothetical.

It's long been a mistake to attribute responsibility to only one cause; when in fact there are numerous causes all with responsibility for what comes about

Now back to the issue. The issue is:

1- Of course God could create man without greater resistance to sin! He's going to remake us that way, it'd be shallow to think He couldn't do what He's going to do!

2- God's omnipotent, isn't He?

Neither 1 nor 2 are hypothetical. That obliterates the argument that this is hypothetical. God is real. His promises are real, His Creation is real. So God is really responsible.

You were making up a hypothetical question in trying to prove one of your points. Saying God hypothetically could have made man better resistant to sinning. But since God did not hypothetically create man more resistant to sin God has repsonsibility for man's sinning. And you hypothetical is just blaming God.

You posted "I said God is responsible no matter the denials, for what He created."

What God created in the six days in Genesis 1 is called "very good" Gen 1:31. God created man good and not defective as you seem to think. God gave man a free will to make choices but since man abused that gift from God and chose of his own will to to evil God is not repsonsible for those abuses man made with his free will. If you raise a son in a good, godly and moral way yet later in your son's adult life he choose to rob a bank and shoot people. Is that choice he made your fault and responsibility? No, and choices man make are not God's fault - Adam choosing of hisown will to eat of the forbidden tree is not God's fault or rsponsibility.

You are blaming God and making God responsible for man's sins and I cannot even take this argument seriously. I can only hope Calvinist visitors to this page read your remarks in blaming God and it will open their eyes to the horrible theology of Calvinism putting blame on God. I have always said and will continue to say the bottom line problem with Calvinism is it blames God for man's sins and man being lost and you are absolutely proving that for me.

 

[Carolyn]

1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?
I could also ask the question, why would God create souls that he had no intention of ever "drawing" to himself, knowing they were destined to hell right from the start?
2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

I agree, but I don't believe that negates freewill. I'm willing to accept that there are certain things we cant fully wrap our minds around. I believe in predestination but I also believe in mans freewill. I don't believe its one or the other, I believe its one and the other.

Saved by Grace, I so completely agree to this last statement. I just don't understand your position on works, which seems so incongruant with this truth. PLEASE HELP ME

 

[Guest]

is it ok if i take a stab at it, ok here it goes. i say salvation 1st, bible 2nd. an illustration if you will. imagine god the father dwelling inside a house, god is spirit, his spirit illuminates the house and windows and everything in it, god's spirit is holy, the holy spirit is from god and of god. again, god is spirit. the holy spirit is the helper and comforter that he sends to you when you repent fully and ask for forgiveness, but there's only one thing that's missing. jesus/flesh. now picture this, jesus walks out of the house. picture that in your mind for a second.

who is jesus, jesus was/is god of flesh because he manifested himself into mary's womb from spirit to flesh. this is where faith comes in, this is what the pharisees didn't understand. a once invisible god has now made himself visible through jesus. free will gives us the choice to seek him even though he is the one that draws us in.

so how is god able to dwell inside the believer. to know who god the father is, you have to come to jesus first. in order to come to jesus you have to confess in your heart that he was/is the god of flesh. so in order for jesus to dwell inside of you, you yourself have to repent of your sins. god of spirit, the holy spirit, and jesus are one. since jesus/god of flesh is holy, he can't dwell inside a sinner. you have to repent and cleanse yourself first before he can dwell inside of you. do you see now how he was/is god in the flesh. when you come to this revelation, the bible is now a whole new world that's come alive inside your heart, body and mind. faith is not based on scriptures, it's based on what you believe in your heart. jesus reveals himself to the one's who truly believe he is god. when i came to christ, i had very little knowledge of the bible. it didn't stop jesus from finding me though. he loved us first before we loved him regardless of what you know about the bible. jesus wants us to know who he really is first.

salvation isn't meant to be a complex math problem, it's quite simple. it's giving your life to the lord that's hard.

 

[heymikey80]

There is no verse where Paul said "belief is not a work"

Paul said "one who does not work but believes in one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for justification" Rom 4:5

One who does not work but believes demonstrates flatly that someone who believes need not work. If belief is a work, then someone can't believe without also working.

Yet Paul says some "do not work, but believe".

 

[heymikey80]

You were making up a hypothetical question in trying to prove one of your points. Saying God hypothetically could have made man better resistant to sinning. But since God did not hypothetically create man more resistant to sin God has repsonsibility for man's sinning. And you hypothetical is just blaming God.

No. I assert that God shall make people better -- it's called "New Creation", cf 2 Cor 5:17 ESV -- it's not hypothetical.

You posted "I said God is responsible no matter the denials, for what He created."

What God created in the six days in Genesis 1 is called "very good" Gen 1:31. God created man good and not defective as you seem to think. God gave man a free will to make choices but since man abused that gift from God ...

Hold it, once again. God shall resurrect people in such a way that they shall not abuse that gifts. Therefore you're back to the same problem. God could've rightfully made men a different way than you claim. And God made men with it. He won't, later on.

Therefore your challenge returns. God's still responsible. It's His Creation. Hint: Rom 3:6 ESV . It's something everyone ultimately must come to: God accepts His responsibility and will satisfy His justice. Why can't we?

Do I see it as "wrong" that God made men with the ability to fall? No. But then, if you knew Calvinism, you'd know why. Do you know why free agency is not considered evil in Calvinism, ETB? Do you know the position you're arguing against?