My approach to predestination and salvation

[Grazer]

God chose me and I chose him. He chose me first so I could choose him. Without him choosing me I couldn't make a choice. God has chosen everyone by Jesus's act on the cross and his resurrection. Not everyone will choose God but the offer is always open.

Simplistic but it works for me.

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[heymikey80]

You're right, but ... so much more is intended by Paul's saying, "those he predestined, ... he justified ... he glorified". Rom 8:29-30, cf 8:31

And then Rom 8:38-39

 

[Grazer]

You're right, but ... so much more is intended by Paul's saying, "those he predestined, ... he justified ... he glorified". Rom 8:29-30, cf 8:31

And then Rom 8:38-39

Oh there is and its beautiful

Just when it comes to who chose who and salvation etc, the above is enough for me

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[Ernest T. Bass]

God never unconditionally chose certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be hopelessly lost for God is not culpable for the lost. But God did pre-choose a class of people (Christians) to be saved and people have a choice to be or not be in this chosen class.

 

[Grazer]

God never unconditionally chose certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be hopelessly lost for God is not culpable for the lost. But God did pre-choose a class of people (Christians) to be saved and people have a choice to be or not be in this chosen class.

I like that makes a lot of sense

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[bfiddy]

God never unconditionally chose certain individuals to be saved leaving the rest to be hopelessly lost for God is not culpable for the lost. But God did pre-choose a class of people (Christians) to be saved and people have a choice to be or not be in this chosen class.

Hi Ernest,
God would not be culpable for the lost in this situation. If 10 men are about to be executed for crimes they committed and the governor pardons 5 of them then the governor is not then culpable for the execution of the other 5.

 

[bfiddy]

God chose me and I chose him. He chose me first so I could choose him. Without him choosing me I couldn't make a choice. God has chosen everyone by Jesus's act on the cross and his resurrection. Not everyone will choose God but the offer is always open.

Simplistic but it works for me.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,

In my opinion, most of what you said is correct. The one problem with what you said is this...
"God has chosen everyone by Jesus's act on the cross and his resurrection."

God chose the elect, not everyone. The ones He chose He gave to Jesus, put His Spirit in them, gave them a new heart, eyes to see, ears to hear, and the ability to believe and repent.
John 6:37 (NAS) - “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:44 (NAS) - “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Based on John 6:44 we know that everyone who the Father draws will be saved. The question is then will the Father draw everyone? If He will then everyone will be saved and the Bible clearly doesn't support that view. God has chosen a group of people to save by grace and grace alone. The others have been passed over and left in their sins to receive justice.

This is a very difficult thing to accept, however. I did not want to believe it, but after wrestling with it for a while I've come to find that it removes all boasting from man and glorifies God's grace.

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[bfiddy]

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Yes, I completely agree with John 3:16. Whoever believes will be saved. But only those who are: Christ's sheep, of God, the elect, drawn by the Father, etc, will believe.

If you believe that 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about every person ever created (and not the elect) then I have a couple of questions for you.
1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?
2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Savedbygrace3927]

Yes, I completely agree with John 3:16. Whoever believes will be saved. But only those who are: Christ's sheep, of God, the elect, drawn by the Father, etc, will believe.

If you believe that 2 Peter 3:9 is talking about every person ever created (and not the elect) then I have a couple of questions for you.
1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?
2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

God bless,
Brian

1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?

I could also ask the question, why would God create souls that he had no intention of ever "drawing" to himself, knowing they were destined to hell right from the start?

2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

I agree, but I don't believe that negates freewill. I'm willing to accept that there are certain things we cant fully wrap our minds around. I believe in predestination but I also believe in mans freewill. I don't believe its one or the other, I believe its one and the other.

 

[Grazer]

The elect stance is an easy one to take when you're one of them. I think Ernest has hit on something.

The way I look at it is to question why me? Why have I been chosen to receive this grace? As I've been told many times, I've done nothing to deserve it, I can't earn it. If that applies to me then it applies to everyone so why me?

I look at Jesus and he called everyone to him but not everyone responded. God has called everyone to him but not everyone responds.

The thought that people won't be saved because God essentially doesn't want them to be flies in the face of everything Jesus did and makes no sense. Everyone has a choice, God broke the bondage of death so people could have that choice.

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[Nick]

The elect stance is an easy one to take when you're one of them. I think Ernest has hit on something.

The way I look at it is to question why me? Why have I been chosen to receive this grace? As I've been told many times, I've done nothing to deserve it, I can't earn it. If that applies to me then it applies to everyone so why me?

I look at Jesus and he called everyone to him but not everyone responded. God has called everyone to him but not everyone responds.

The thought that people won't be saved because God essentially doesn't want them to be flies in the face of everything Jesus did and makes no sense. Everyone has a choice, God broke the bondage of death so people could have that choice.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

I can understand you struggle with election. It's a difficult position to take. I think it's important with regards to things like this, that we don't know everything and the topic of predestination is divinely complex. I don't think it is even worth pondering why God chooses some and not others. But we know He is a Loving, Just and Sovereign God. We should trust His Judgement.

 

[Grazer]

I can understand you struggle with election. It's a difficult position to take. I think it's important with regards to things like this, that we don't know everything and the topic of predestination is divinely complex. I don't think it is even worth pondering why God chooses some and not others. But we know He is a Loving, Just and Sovereign God. We should trust His Judgement.

I think its a question that needs to be pondered if that's the position you take. If God has already chosen who will be saved, why do we need to "go out and make disciples" to quote Jesus? Why did Jesus have to do what he did? Nothing else makes sense to me and as my signature says; "what I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind" It doesn't have to make complete sense, I don't have to fully understand it but it has to make some sense as opposed to the zero that predestination does to me.

If we don't choose God then what else don't we choose? If people aren't called to be saved, then they're sinners by Gods choice so are they accountable to him really?

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[Ernest T. Bass]

Hi Ernest,
God would not be culpable for the lost in this situation. If 10 men are about to be executed for crimes they committed and the governor pardons 5 of them then the governor is not then culpable for the execution of the other 5.

The problem is God would have already executed these men before the world began, before they even existed, before they even did anything good or evil. God then FORCES these men to be unrighteous and lost so they have no choice at all in being righteous/saved. In your example, the Governor did not force the men to be unrighteous criminals and then execute them for being the criminals he forced them to be. God does not force men to be unrighteous just so He can cause them to be lost. People choose of their own will to sin therefore culpable for their own sins and not pre-forced to be lost sinners by God making God culpable for them being sinners.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The elect stance is an easy one to take when you're one of them. I think Ernest has hit on something.

The way I look at it is to question why me? Why have I been chosen to receive this grace? As I've been told many times, I've done nothing to deserve it, I can't earn it. If that applies to me then it applies to everyone so why me?

I look at Jesus and he called everyone to him but not everyone responded. God has called everyone to him but not everyone responds.

The thought that people won't be saved because God essentially doesn't want them to be flies in the face of everything Jesus did and makes no sense. Everyone has a choice, God broke the bondage of death so people could have that choice.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

...and that's the problem with Calvin's idea of predestination. If you were not lucky enough to be pre-chosen by God before the world began, then you are born into this world without any hope or chance of ever being in God's grace. Your eternal lost fate was forced upon you before you even existed, before you ever did anything good or evil. God has forced you to be born a corrupt sinner and there's nothing you can do about it, you are a lost sinner for God made/forced you to be one therefore God is culpable for how He made you, culpable for forcing you to be a lost sinner.

 

[bfiddy]

1)If God is not willing that any should perish and He knows all things then why would He create souls that would perish? If He is able to look throughout time and see that a certain person would never choose to believe then why did He create that person?

I could also ask the question, why would God create souls that he had no intention of ever "drawing" to himself, knowing they were destined to hell right from the start?

2)This verse is talking about why Christ hasn't returned yet. Do you really think Christ is delaying His return for those whom He knows are not going to come to repentance? Of course not. He's waiting for all of those whom He knows will come to repentance (the elect) to return.

I agree, but I don't believe that negates freewill. I'm willing to accept that there are certain things we cant fully wrap our minds around. I believe in predestination but I also believe in mans freewill. I don't believe its one or the other, I believe its one and the other.

Hi SBG,
1)You see, this is a big difference between our views. In your view God's knows people will not be saved even though He really wants them to be saved and yet He creates them anyway. Now those people are suffering eternal punishment for no purpose whatsoever. That seems rather evil, doesn't it? But in my view...
Proverbs 16:4 (NAS) - The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:22-23 (NAS) - What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

God is glorified not only in His mercy, but in His punishment of evil. In fact, His mercy is magnified in His punishment of evil. Those who receive His wrath have a purpose.

2)I'm not saying man doesn't have a will. Man is free to do what he desires. The problem is that he desires what is evil. He loves darkness and hates the Light. He will never choose God unless God takes out his God-hating heart and gives Him a new heart.

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

I think its a question that needs to be pondered if that's the position you take. If God has already chosen who will be saved, why do we need to "go out and make disciples" to quote Jesus? Why did Jesus have to do what he did? Nothing else makes sense to me and as my signature says; "what I believe in my heart must make sense in my mind" It doesn't have to make complete sense, I don't have to fully understand it but it has to make some sense as opposed to the zero that predestination does to me.

If we don't choose God then what else don't we choose? If people aren't called to be saved, then they're sinners by Gods choice so are they accountable to him really?

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,
1)Why do we need to go out and make disciples? Well, first of all, because we've been commanded to do so. Why do we need to do good works if we've already been saved by Jesus' works? Well, probably because it is pleasing to God. But also, do you have no desire to see someone repent and become a lover of God? Is there something you'd rather be doing? Doesn't the idea of having a front-row seat to watch God save someone interest you? It seems to cause a lot of joy in heaven (Luke 15:7).
2)Why did Jesus have to do what He did? Because God is just. If God's just wrath wasn't taken out on Jesus it would have to be taken out on all of us. I don't think predestination has any affect on this question.
3)When it comes to choosing, look at it this way. God does tell everyone to repent and believe and will welcome anyone who does so. The problem is that none are willing. They are not willing because they hate God. They are making a choice not to come to God. Now God could just leave everyone in this state and everyone would perish by their own choice. But God's grace is so amazing that He actually refuses to let everyone continue in their hatred of Him and He changes their heart and puts His Spirit in them so that they will choose Him. If you have chosen God this is what has happened to you. It is an amazing act of grace. You would not have chosen God without this work of God. If you look at someone who refuses to believe and consider yourself better than them because you chose God, be very careful. You chose God (if you did) because He performed a supernatural work in you. You should be like the person who refuses to believe.

I hope this helps.

God bless,
Brian

 

[Grazer]

I did choose God but I'm not better than anyone else because of it. If anything, the stance of predestination says Christians are better than everyone else

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[bfiddy]

...and that's the problem with Calvin's idea of predestination. If you were not lucky enough to be pre-chosen by God before the world began, then you are born into this world without any hope or chance of ever being in God's grace. Your eternal lost fate was forced upon you before you even existed, before you ever did anything good or evil. God has forced you to be born a corrupt sinner and there's nothing you can do about it, you are a lost sinner for God made/forced you to be one therefore God is culpable for how He made you, culpable for forcing you to be a lost sinner.

Hi Ernest,
What you seem to be missing is that every man was perfectly represented by Adam. If it was you in the garden instead of Adam you would have done the exact same thing. God, being perfect, chose the perfect representative for you (and everyone else) in Adam. And so, we are responsible for what Adam did in the way that a man is responsible for the murder of a hitman that he hires to do what he wants done. Because of the fall, we are born evil and haters of God. Every single person would reject the offer of salvation if God did not change them first.

You seem to be referring to hyper-Calvinism (or better called, anti-Calvinism) in making God the author of sin. That is not a proper view of Calvinism.

God bless,
Brian

 

[bfiddy]

I did choose God but I'm not better than anyone else because of it. If anything, the stance of predestination says Christians are better than everyone else

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Hi Grazer,

No, that is a false represenation of predestination. We believe God chose according to His good pleasure, not because of anything of value in us. And it also seems to be implied that God has chosen the least valued...
Corinthians 1:27 (NAS) - but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

Just out of curiousity, if you believe that everyone can freely choose God then why did you choose God and others refuse?

God bless,
Brian