MithrandirOlorin
Member
I'm not quite as decided on this as I am on many other views.
I used to be firmly in what is called the Post-Trib camp. (Even though unlike many Post-Tribbers I've always been Premilenial, Futurist, Dispensationalist and completely against Replacement Theology.) And certainly never liked the Pre-Trib argument. What Chuck Missler explains about the uniqueness of the Church alters my perspective though, once you understand that not all saved are part of the Church then the references to believers on the Earth during the Tribulation no longer inherently contradicts the Pre-Trib view. But I'm still not sold on the Pre-Trib argument, however rather then being firmly Post-Trib I'm now leaning towards a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath view.
First off, the Pre-Trib camp seems to consider Imminence their cornerstone argument. Verses where the Bible tells us to "Expect" Yeshua's return at any moment. Problem is the intent of those verses weren't about chronology, it's about the attitude believers should take and how we should behave. But they insist it means that the Rapture must be the absolute next thing to happen Chronologically, even though plenty of Prophecies have already been fulfilled while we've been waiting (Israel Restored, the first portion of Isaiah 19 ect.) Now it's the Gog&Magog invasion that can't possibly occur until after the Rapture, but logically before 1948 they'd have had to say the same thing about Israel being reestablished, or till 67 about them reclaiming all of Jerusalem.
When my Dad first starting teaching me how to use a gun, he told me before even letting me touch it to always treat it like it's loaded, even when I know for certain it's not. The point of that instruction to make sure I'm always very very very careful with it, with is a very smart approach to take, but it doesn't change the fact that an unloaded gun still needs to be loaded before you can actually shoot something with it.
The Bible verses that imply Imminence are to tell us to behave like he can return at any moment, to before committing any Sin think "Is that what I want to be in the middle of when Yeshua comes back?" and to motivate us to work firmly in spreading the Gospel and doing God's work by acting like we could run out of time at any time. After all, in a sense it does happen for you immediately when you die. But the fact remains there are at least Two Bible Passages that make it clear the Rapture won't occur at least until after the "Abomination of Desolation".
Before I get to those, contrary to some assumptions I do not believe the exact time of the 2nd Coming will be known once the Tribulation starts, or even after the Mid-Trib sequence of events. The 2nd Coming is not the end-point of the Tribulation like people tend to assume, The Defeat of The Beast/Battle of Armageddon is. We have a tendency to think of that as simultaneous with the 2nd coming but it's actually not, Isaiah 63 tells us he goes first to Edom/Petra to be reunited with Israel. In my view that could be days or even weeks before the final Battle.
Matthew 24's account of the Olivet Discourse first sums up the period affiliated with the 7 Seals in verses 5-8. Then it seems to deal more with the 1st half of the Tribulation until it reaches the "Abomination of Desolation" in verse 15. Then it goes on describing more End Times drama until verses 29-31 when Yeshua (And Pre-Tribbers tend to ignore this) explicitly says
I will in more detail discus 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2. First off, many take the language of "By letter as from us" in verse 2 as referring to a latter falsely attributed to Paul. Maybe it is, but I think it's more likely the point is he's referring to people misunderstanding or outright misusing what he said in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4. He certainly is referring to that exact same event when he says "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Now he goes on to explain in no uncertain terms.
The Pre-Trib camp likes to make this fit their view by insisting the "Restrainer" mentioned latter is The Holy Spirit. First if they want to build Doctrine on that they need to show other verses consistently using that as a title of The Holy Spirit, because to me "Restraint" seems to be the opposite of The Holy Spirit's mission during the Church Age when I look at Acts 2 and other places. But even if it where, that doesn't undermine the clearly chronological implication that Paul in unambiguously saying that the Gathering Together will NOT happen till After the "Man of Sins" is revealed. Yet so many Pre-Tribbers insist the Church will never encounter that individual. That's part of the danger of the Pre-Trib view to me, The Bible gives us all those clues about his identity for a reason, the Church should using them, not just insisting "We'll never meet him anyway".
Also, as much as Pre-Tribbers love to make it sound like the Earliest Church fathers supported their view (Though again basing that only on quotes the emphasis Imminence) that fact is none of them support the "Restrainer" being The Holy Spirit or The Church. Ireaneus, and others felt it refereed to the Roman Empire. Tertullian says in http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.xxiv.html that ""only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?". I'm not inclined ot agree with this view but it shows that the Holy Spirit interpretation is not universal.
Now, let's get into this "Restrainer" verse, first of all the KJV rendering in verse 7 is.
It's "He who now letteth" is who is commonly called here the "Restrainer" Restrain is what the Greek word translated "letteth" actually means. The previous verse uses the same word (Though in a different form) and the KJV translated it "Withholdeth". If the same restrainer is in mind there, it adds an interesting context, it makes it sound like the one being revealed here is also the restrainer, or the one pulling his strings who is Satan. Which makes it then interesting to cross reference this with my dissertation on Satan's Fall form Heaven, that it's a future not a past event.
I think it's very possible Satan is restraining himself right now, he doesn't want to make the Bible Prophecy come true, hopping to do that and still avert the last part. But also because he still holds his position of Authority and is biding his time before openly rebelling against God. So using his puppets he is trying to use other means, not directly part of Bible prophecy to exterminate the Jews and The Church, which is why things like the Holocaust happen. But Revelation 12:12 warns a time will come when he will "Know he has but a short time left" I believe that literally refers to him becoming fully bound to the Space-Time continuum when he's cast out of Heaven. I believe it's around this time that the "Abomination of Desolation" occurs, exactly whether before or after I'm uncertain on.
That's one way of looking at it, but I one I can see many uncomfortable with. Job makes clear God does restrain Satan, but it's not any specific person of the Trinity affiliated with that. But the greater point is, whoever the Restrainer is, it doesn't contradict that the text clearly says "The Man of Sin" is reveled before the Harpatzo discussed in 1 Thessalonians, and that how he's revealed is by performing the Abomination of Desolation.
I've thought about it and now I've come to view that the restrainer being removed refers to to when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9. The beast is refereed to as Ascending "out of the Bottomless Pit", I believe it's Apollyon/Abbadon being imprisoned there that is restraining the him from making his move. The word translated "he" (Strong# 846) there can also mean "it" or "thing". So the restrainer could be an object rather then a personality, like perhaps the lock keeping the Abyss sealed and the entities inside chained.
So to me, all these passages are insurmountable obstacles for the Pre-Trib view. But I am very open to Mid-Trib, possibly with the Rapture occurring in Revelation 14.
I used to be firmly in what is called the Post-Trib camp. (Even though unlike many Post-Tribbers I've always been Premilenial, Futurist, Dispensationalist and completely against Replacement Theology.) And certainly never liked the Pre-Trib argument. What Chuck Missler explains about the uniqueness of the Church alters my perspective though, once you understand that not all saved are part of the Church then the references to believers on the Earth during the Tribulation no longer inherently contradicts the Pre-Trib view. But I'm still not sold on the Pre-Trib argument, however rather then being firmly Post-Trib I'm now leaning towards a Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath view.
First off, the Pre-Trib camp seems to consider Imminence their cornerstone argument. Verses where the Bible tells us to "Expect" Yeshua's return at any moment. Problem is the intent of those verses weren't about chronology, it's about the attitude believers should take and how we should behave. But they insist it means that the Rapture must be the absolute next thing to happen Chronologically, even though plenty of Prophecies have already been fulfilled while we've been waiting (Israel Restored, the first portion of Isaiah 19 ect.) Now it's the Gog&Magog invasion that can't possibly occur until after the Rapture, but logically before 1948 they'd have had to say the same thing about Israel being reestablished, or till 67 about them reclaiming all of Jerusalem.
When my Dad first starting teaching me how to use a gun, he told me before even letting me touch it to always treat it like it's loaded, even when I know for certain it's not. The point of that instruction to make sure I'm always very very very careful with it, with is a very smart approach to take, but it doesn't change the fact that an unloaded gun still needs to be loaded before you can actually shoot something with it.
The Bible verses that imply Imminence are to tell us to behave like he can return at any moment, to before committing any Sin think "Is that what I want to be in the middle of when Yeshua comes back?" and to motivate us to work firmly in spreading the Gospel and doing God's work by acting like we could run out of time at any time. After all, in a sense it does happen for you immediately when you die. But the fact remains there are at least Two Bible Passages that make it clear the Rapture won't occur at least until after the "Abomination of Desolation".
Before I get to those, contrary to some assumptions I do not believe the exact time of the 2nd Coming will be known once the Tribulation starts, or even after the Mid-Trib sequence of events. The 2nd Coming is not the end-point of the Tribulation like people tend to assume, The Defeat of The Beast/Battle of Armageddon is. We have a tendency to think of that as simultaneous with the 2nd coming but it's actually not, Isaiah 63 tells us he goes first to Edom/Petra to be reunited with Israel. In my view that could be days or even weeks before the final Battle.
Matthew 24's account of the Olivet Discourse first sums up the period affiliated with the 7 Seals in verses 5-8. Then it seems to deal more with the 1st half of the Tribulation until it reaches the "Abomination of Desolation" in verse 15. Then it goes on describing more End Times drama until verses 29-31 when Yeshua (And Pre-Tribbers tend to ignore this) explicitly says
This is clearly the same event described in 1 Thessalonians 4, and clearly described as AFTER a tribulation. And also in this narrative it seems to be significantly after the "Abomination of Desolation"
I will in more detail discus 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2. First off, many take the language of "By letter as from us" in verse 2 as referring to a latter falsely attributed to Paul. Maybe it is, but I think it's more likely the point is he's referring to people misunderstanding or outright misusing what he said in 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4. He certainly is referring to that exact same event when he says "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him". Now he goes on to explain in no uncertain terms.
I put "and" in bold, because Pre-Tribbers like to insist only the first of these two things has to happen first.
The Pre-Trib camp likes to make this fit their view by insisting the "Restrainer" mentioned latter is The Holy Spirit. First if they want to build Doctrine on that they need to show other verses consistently using that as a title of The Holy Spirit, because to me "Restraint" seems to be the opposite of The Holy Spirit's mission during the Church Age when I look at Acts 2 and other places. But even if it where, that doesn't undermine the clearly chronological implication that Paul in unambiguously saying that the Gathering Together will NOT happen till After the "Man of Sins" is revealed. Yet so many Pre-Tribbers insist the Church will never encounter that individual. That's part of the danger of the Pre-Trib view to me, The Bible gives us all those clues about his identity for a reason, the Church should using them, not just insisting "We'll never meet him anyway".
Also, as much as Pre-Tribbers love to make it sound like the Earliest Church fathers supported their view (Though again basing that only on quotes the emphasis Imminence) that fact is none of them support the "Restrainer" being The Holy Spirit or The Church. Ireaneus, and others felt it refereed to the Roman Empire. Tertullian says in http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.viii.xxiv.html that ""only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)?". I'm not inclined ot agree with this view but it shows that the Holy Spirit interpretation is not universal.
Now, let's get into this "Restrainer" verse, first of all the KJV rendering in verse 7 is.
There could possibly be translational issues with the phrase rendered "taken out of the way" but that's incidental.
It's "He who now letteth" is who is commonly called here the "Restrainer" Restrain is what the Greek word translated "letteth" actually means. The previous verse uses the same word (Though in a different form) and the KJV translated it "Withholdeth". If the same restrainer is in mind there, it adds an interesting context, it makes it sound like the one being revealed here is also the restrainer, or the one pulling his strings who is Satan. Which makes it then interesting to cross reference this with my dissertation on Satan's Fall form Heaven, that it's a future not a past event.
I think it's very possible Satan is restraining himself right now, he doesn't want to make the Bible Prophecy come true, hopping to do that and still avert the last part. But also because he still holds his position of Authority and is biding his time before openly rebelling against God. So using his puppets he is trying to use other means, not directly part of Bible prophecy to exterminate the Jews and The Church, which is why things like the Holocaust happen. But Revelation 12:12 warns a time will come when he will "Know he has but a short time left" I believe that literally refers to him becoming fully bound to the Space-Time continuum when he's cast out of Heaven. I believe it's around this time that the "Abomination of Desolation" occurs, exactly whether before or after I'm uncertain on.
That's one way of looking at it, but I one I can see many uncomfortable with. Job makes clear God does restrain Satan, but it's not any specific person of the Trinity affiliated with that. But the greater point is, whoever the Restrainer is, it doesn't contradict that the text clearly says "The Man of Sin" is reveled before the Harpatzo discussed in 1 Thessalonians, and that how he's revealed is by performing the Abomination of Desolation.
I've thought about it and now I've come to view that the restrainer being removed refers to to when the Abyss is opened in Revelation 9. The beast is refereed to as Ascending "out of the Bottomless Pit", I believe it's Apollyon/Abbadon being imprisoned there that is restraining the him from making his move. The word translated "he" (Strong# 846) there can also mean "it" or "thing". So the restrainer could be an object rather then a personality, like perhaps the lock keeping the Abyss sealed and the entities inside chained.
So to me, all these passages are insurmountable obstacles for the Pre-Trib view. But I am very open to Mid-Trib, possibly with the Rapture occurring in Revelation 14.
