Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
My Love for Joyce Meyer
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
jasoncran
Member
theres more then that. if i recall corectly that she also said the gods thing.
lewis, just so you know i used to listen to her, and i have read the book by her called battlefield of the mind.
and i also listened to duplantis.
Lewis
Member
What does the Bible mean, ‘You are gods’?
One of the pet phrases in scripture that world religions use to support the various doctrines claiming that humans can become divine is ‘you are gods’. This is found several places in scripture and in context the intent is clear. However, this can and often is twisted into unbiblical meanings and used to confuse those who value the Bible as authoritative. This is used to persuade people that the Bible supports their ‘you are god’ theory. The first passage we will examine is Exodus 7:
1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
I won’t spend much time on this passage because the intent is quite obvious. The KJV words it, "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh". Pharaoh was the highest god in ancient Egypt’s pagan religious world. They had gods for everything. Some gods had higher powers than others. The Egyptians believed that it was necessary to appease all the gods so that their wives could be fertile, their crops would yield harvest, the rains would come in season, and so on. Many of the plagues God sent were specifically targeted against the gods of Egypt. Pharaoh went down to greet the Nile floods each year and honor this god. God sent Moses to meet him and to turn the water to blood. This was a direct assault against this false god that Pharaoh was honoring. One of their gods was a frog, so God sent a plague of millions of frogs. Because Pharaoh thought he was a god, Moses was like a rivaling god against Pharaoh. To yield to Moses was to admit before his people that Pharaoh wasn’t the strongest god. God said in Exodus 9:14 that the plagues against Pharaoh’s gods were meant to show that there was none like God. It was not to show that Moses was a god. Moses was not a god. However, to the pagan worshipping Pharaoh he was a god. It was only in Pharaoh’s eyes that Moses was considered divine.
Gods will die like men?
Now look at Psalm 82:
1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes."
This passage requires a little more thought, but it is still quite clear. In the context of this passage it is clear that the ‘gods’ are not called so because they are divine, but because they are set up to be judges. God established His leadership to judge and do justice among the people. This has nothing to do with divinity. We know this because God follows up by saying, "You are gods and children of the Most High, but you shall die like men". Look at the entire context of this passage. God is judging the judges He has ordained because they became arrogant and unjust. In stead of using the power God had given them to defend the helpless and needy, they used it for greed and gain. They afflicted the needy and gave favor to the wicked. Jesus used this same passage against the Pharisees. They thought they were above the people. The passage declares that these ‘gods’ are wicked, without understanding, walking in darkness, have an unstable foundation, and they will die like all men do. This doesn’t sound much like the claims of divinity the 'Christian' false teachers and other religions proclaim it to be.
Gods are an abomination
There is one last reference to gods I would like to bring to light. Look at Isaiah 41
20 That they may see and know, And consider and understand together, That the hand of the LORD has done this, And the Holy One of Israel has created it.
21 " Present your case," says the LORD. "Bring forth your strong reasons," says the King of Jacob.
22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter, That we may know that you are gods; Yes, do good or do evil, That we may be dismayed and see it together.
24 Indeed you are nothing, And your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.
In this passage, God is challenging those who call themselves gods. God challenges them, if they are gods, present your case. Show us what will happen in the future. Show us the past. Declare what is to come. What are the purposes of God? They should know since they are gods. God challenges them to show their power since they think they are gods. Then God follows up by saying, "you are nothing; your work is nothing; and he who chooses you is an abomination". That is a very divisive statement. God declares that anyone who chooses these who claim to be gods is an abomination to Himself, the only true God.
There are only two ways that we can be so-called gods. When we stand in the place of authority that God has ordained us to hold, we are gods in the sense that we represent Him or that we are reflecting God to others. We are all created to reflect God’s glory, but we also have all sin and fallen short of that glory. We are nothing, but in His will and by His authority, we are instruments for His purposes. The other way we are gods is found in the beginning of scripture. In Genesis 3:22, God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil". We are like God in the sense that we know right from wrong. Satan promised Eve that she would be like God. It was a half-truth. She was like God only in that she could identify good and evil. Sin has plagued mankind since that time. If someone claims that we are a god in any other context is a false statement and a false god. Satan’s lie is still the same – you will be like God. Man’s pride believes the lie because he does not want God, rather he wants to be god.
In each passage where the Bible refers to man as gods, it is judgment. Each time God is either challenging them, judging them or judging those who choose to align with them. It is ironic that other religions try to use the Bible to persuade by using the very passages that condemn them. If someone would just take the time to read the surrounding passages in context they would clearly see that most false teachers contradict their own doctrine with the scriptures they twist.
In Conclusion:
Look at Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Just because someone claims to be wise does not make them wise. Wisdom based on the world will fail. Jesus warned that just because someone comes in His name does not mean that He sent them. Preachers claiming Jesus’ name are deceivers and anti-Christs if they are contradicting His word. When someone reshapes God into the image of corruptible man, the Bible says that they have become fools. If the Bible calls them fools, how can we allow them to be teachers of foolish doctrine within the church? If anyone teaches doctrine that says God is like man or man is like or can be like God, the Bible says that they have already rejected the truth and are not worshipping God, but are worshipping the creation of God – which is idolatry. If God has said that He has given them up, we should not be afraid to expose them. How people respond to false teaching reveals who is seeking God and who loves the lie.
It is the responsibility of every believer to uphold the truth so that each person can make a clear choice. If someone is deceived, it should be a knowing choice to reject the scriptures. We can’t make people want God, but we can uphold His truth so that people can see whhttp://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/ye_are_gods.shtmlat choice they are making.
One of the pet phrases in scripture that world religions use to support the various doctrines claiming that humans can become divine is ‘you are gods’. This is found several places in scripture and in context the intent is clear. However, this can and often is twisted into unbiblical meanings and used to confuse those who value the Bible as authoritative. This is used to persuade people that the Bible supports their ‘you are god’ theory. The first passage we will examine is Exodus 7:
1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
I won’t spend much time on this passage because the intent is quite obvious. The KJV words it, "I have made thee a god to Pharaoh". Pharaoh was the highest god in ancient Egypt’s pagan religious world. They had gods for everything. Some gods had higher powers than others. The Egyptians believed that it was necessary to appease all the gods so that their wives could be fertile, their crops would yield harvest, the rains would come in season, and so on. Many of the plagues God sent were specifically targeted against the gods of Egypt. Pharaoh went down to greet the Nile floods each year and honor this god. God sent Moses to meet him and to turn the water to blood. This was a direct assault against this false god that Pharaoh was honoring. One of their gods was a frog, so God sent a plague of millions of frogs. Because Pharaoh thought he was a god, Moses was like a rivaling god against Pharaoh. To yield to Moses was to admit before his people that Pharaoh wasn’t the strongest god. God said in Exodus 9:14 that the plagues against Pharaoh’s gods were meant to show that there was none like God. It was not to show that Moses was a god. Moses was not a god. However, to the pagan worshipping Pharaoh he was a god. It was only in Pharaoh’s eyes that Moses was considered divine.
Gods will die like men?
Now look at Psalm 82:
1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes."
This passage requires a little more thought, but it is still quite clear. In the context of this passage it is clear that the ‘gods’ are not called so because they are divine, but because they are set up to be judges. God established His leadership to judge and do justice among the people. This has nothing to do with divinity. We know this because God follows up by saying, "You are gods and children of the Most High, but you shall die like men". Look at the entire context of this passage. God is judging the judges He has ordained because they became arrogant and unjust. In stead of using the power God had given them to defend the helpless and needy, they used it for greed and gain. They afflicted the needy and gave favor to the wicked. Jesus used this same passage against the Pharisees. They thought they were above the people. The passage declares that these ‘gods’ are wicked, without understanding, walking in darkness, have an unstable foundation, and they will die like all men do. This doesn’t sound much like the claims of divinity the 'Christian' false teachers and other religions proclaim it to be.
Gods are an abomination
There is one last reference to gods I would like to bring to light. Look at Isaiah 41
20 That they may see and know, And consider and understand together, That the hand of the LORD has done this, And the Holy One of Israel has created it.
21 " Present your case," says the LORD. "Bring forth your strong reasons," says the King of Jacob.
22 "Let them bring forth and show us what will happen; Let them show the former things, what they were, That we may consider them, And know the latter end of them; Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter, That we may know that you are gods; Yes, do good or do evil, That we may be dismayed and see it together.
24 Indeed you are nothing, And your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.
In this passage, God is challenging those who call themselves gods. God challenges them, if they are gods, present your case. Show us what will happen in the future. Show us the past. Declare what is to come. What are the purposes of God? They should know since they are gods. God challenges them to show their power since they think they are gods. Then God follows up by saying, "you are nothing; your work is nothing; and he who chooses you is an abomination". That is a very divisive statement. God declares that anyone who chooses these who claim to be gods is an abomination to Himself, the only true God.
There are only two ways that we can be so-called gods. When we stand in the place of authority that God has ordained us to hold, we are gods in the sense that we represent Him or that we are reflecting God to others. We are all created to reflect God’s glory, but we also have all sin and fallen short of that glory. We are nothing, but in His will and by His authority, we are instruments for His purposes. The other way we are gods is found in the beginning of scripture. In Genesis 3:22, God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil". We are like God in the sense that we know right from wrong. Satan promised Eve that she would be like God. It was a half-truth. She was like God only in that she could identify good and evil. Sin has plagued mankind since that time. If someone claims that we are a god in any other context is a false statement and a false god. Satan’s lie is still the same – you will be like God. Man’s pride believes the lie because he does not want God, rather he wants to be god.
In each passage where the Bible refers to man as gods, it is judgment. Each time God is either challenging them, judging them or judging those who choose to align with them. It is ironic that other religions try to use the Bible to persuade by using the very passages that condemn them. If someone would just take the time to read the surrounding passages in context they would clearly see that most false teachers contradict their own doctrine with the scriptures they twist.
In Conclusion:
Look at Romans 1
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man -- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Just because someone claims to be wise does not make them wise. Wisdom based on the world will fail. Jesus warned that just because someone comes in His name does not mean that He sent them. Preachers claiming Jesus’ name are deceivers and anti-Christs if they are contradicting His word. When someone reshapes God into the image of corruptible man, the Bible says that they have become fools. If the Bible calls them fools, how can we allow them to be teachers of foolish doctrine within the church? If anyone teaches doctrine that says God is like man or man is like or can be like God, the Bible says that they have already rejected the truth and are not worshipping God, but are worshipping the creation of God – which is idolatry. If God has said that He has given them up, we should not be afraid to expose them. How people respond to false teaching reveals who is seeking God and who loves the lie.
It is the responsibility of every believer to uphold the truth so that each person can make a clear choice. If someone is deceived, it should be a knowing choice to reject the scriptures. We can’t make people want God, but we can uphold His truth so that people can see whhttp://www.exchangedlife.com/Sermons/topical/ye_are_gods.shtmlat choice they are making.
xAmbientxCatalystx
Member
Okay, where to begin here.
Watchman,
I never once used the term "most unbiblical", so responding to me with that is to no avail. I do believe it was jasoncran who used that phrase, however it matters nonetheless, just wanted to point this out.
Second of all, why are there no perfect teachers, ministers, pastors? Not perfect as in sinless but as concerning doctrine? I've heard a few that were dead on. Do you think Jesus would tolerate someone improperly teaching even the simplest of doctrines? I don't think so. We're told to rightly divide, to rebuke false teachers, etc, etc. We aren't to just pat them on the back and let them continue on teaching falsely, if so, we're just as guilty.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 John 1:10-11
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you
Watchman,
I never once used the term "most unbiblical", so responding to me with that is to no avail. I do believe it was jasoncran who used that phrase, however it matters nonetheless, just wanted to point this out.
Second of all, why are there no perfect teachers, ministers, pastors? Not perfect as in sinless but as concerning doctrine? I've heard a few that were dead on. Do you think Jesus would tolerate someone improperly teaching even the simplest of doctrines? I don't think so. We're told to rightly divide, to rebuke false teachers, etc, etc. We aren't to just pat them on the back and let them continue on teaching falsely, if so, we're just as guilty.
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Ephesians 5:11
And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
2 Timothy 3:5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 John 1:10-11
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you
I think the point with Meyer, and many like her, is not that she "makes mistakes," but that some of her theology is unbiblical and outright error and deception. Such people make the Bible out to say things that it does not say--they are putting meanings into passages which just aren't there. This goes far beyond simple mistakes.
watchman F
Member
The only perfect dead on teacher I have ever seen is me....lol, and if I find out otherwise I will change my view to line up with the truth.
Vic C.
Member
Lewis mentioned gods, in Psalm 82. Without any historical reference to the contextual meaning of the phrase, "Ye are gods," in verse 6, misunderstandings begin.
Psalm 82:6-I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The Psalmist is addressing corrupt judges. The psalmist uses the word gods in reference to them being judicial representatives (angels, messengers) of God.
In the next verse:
"But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
The word used for men, or man, is keadam, Adam.
So the meaning here is,
You act like gods, but like Adam, your deeds are corrupt, so you too will die.
This Psalm 82 passage has nothing to do with believers being "little gods".
Psalm 82:6-I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The Psalmist is addressing corrupt judges. The psalmist uses the word gods in reference to them being judicial representatives (angels, messengers) of God.
In the next verse:
"But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
The word used for men, or man, is keadam, Adam.
So the meaning here is,
You act like gods, but like Adam, your deeds are corrupt, so you too will die.
This Psalm 82 passage has nothing to do with believers being "little gods".
Jami Sell
Member
First, I will say that I like Joyce Meyer and I have supported the ministry.
After reading the discussion I wonder if we all differ in our idea of "prosperity" and how it is taught.
What I mean is that as a sinner when I came to understand with my mind what God had done for me through His Son Jesus Christ---I "prospered". When my mind understood grace (that God provided) then I prospered and stopped my own efforts to work toward God. When I trusted in His Word (that He already spoke to me) that my needs would be met I got a better job and prospered. While getting the better job produced more money I prospered way before that. In my experience God has done things for me and when I understand those things it brings me various kinds of prosperity.
Maybe the "prosperity teachers" focus more on money because that is one thing that everyone can relate to. (I understand not all of them are on the up an up but I mean maybe they just need to expand to include that "prospering" means more than just cash.)
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
(3Jn 1:2 KJV)
After reading the discussion I wonder if we all differ in our idea of "prosperity" and how it is taught.
What I mean is that as a sinner when I came to understand with my mind what God had done for me through His Son Jesus Christ---I "prospered". When my mind understood grace (that God provided) then I prospered and stopped my own efforts to work toward God. When I trusted in His Word (that He already spoke to me) that my needs would be met I got a better job and prospered. While getting the better job produced more money I prospered way before that. In my experience God has done things for me and when I understand those things it brings me various kinds of prosperity.
Maybe the "prosperity teachers" focus more on money because that is one thing that everyone can relate to. (I understand not all of them are on the up an up but I mean maybe they just need to expand to include that "prospering" means more than just cash.)
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.
(3Jn 1:2 KJV)
Lewis
Member
No, No, No Vic I was just posting a article.Lewis mentioned gods, in Psalm 82. Without any historical reference to the contextual meaning of the phrase, "Ye are gods," in verse 6, misunderstandings begin.
Psalm 82:6-I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The Psalmist is addressing corrupt judges. The psalmist uses the word gods in reference to them being judicial representatives (angels, messengers) of God.
In the next verse:
"But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes."
The word used for men, or man, is keadam, Adam.
So the meaning here is,
You act like gods, but like Adam, your deeds are corrupt, so you too will die.
This Psalm 82 passage has nothing to do with believers being "little gods".
Lewis
Member
I am sitting here watching Joyce as I type this, and she is preaching very Biblical and she is in line with the Bible. She is not perfect because none of us are but Joyce is one of the great teachers in my opinion out there. You all can say what you want but I will not back down from the statement that I just made.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Joyce is my girl! I love that woman for her strength and her transparency! God has surely done a great work in her life and in millions of others due to the wonderful relationship she has with Jesus Christ!
One sermon does not a preacher or teacher make.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Joyce Meyer is what God has made her and she has preached thousands and thousands of sermons, and God has brought many to salvation through her ministry, and blessed them richly, including myself.
:yes;):amen