My problem with Church

[Pizza]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

 

[Pizza]

He's not alone, and neither am I:

http://worthilymagnify.com/2014/05/19/crash/

 

[reba]

Thanks Pizza this is good in any forum Sad but true...

Blessed assurance Jesus is mine of what a fore taste of glory divine....Heir of salvation purchase of God... Born of His Spirit washed in His Blood...

 

[reba]

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
the emblem of suffering and shame;
and I love that old cross where the dearest and best
for a world of lost sinners was slain.
Refrain:
So I'll cherish the old rugged cross,
till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
and exchange it some day for a crown.

2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
has a wondrous attraction for me;
for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above
to bear it to dark Calvary.
(Refrain)

3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
a wondrous beauty I see,
for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
to pardon and sanctify me.
(Refrain)

4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true,
its shame and reproach gladly bear;
then he'll call me some day to my home far away,
where his glory forever I'll share.
(Refrain)

 

[reba]

I miss them

 

[Sinthesis]

You don't have a problem with Church, you have a problem with some churches. So do I, but they are most likely not the same problems and not with the same churches. So what? This is why denominations are good. Provided the essentials of Christian theology are held, variation in the unessentials casts a wider net to draw us to the essentials.

 

[TOG]

And here are a couple of my favorites...

The TOG​

 

[Kathi]

PIzza I totally agree.I do not see God in the Churches I have attended.I see the world.This is very sad but true.

 

[jasonc]

if you look for issues you will see them. I have a problem with Christians. the poster who posting under my user name isn't perfect.

 

[Edward]

I must be lucky, or else I'm not looking for issues. In my church, the girl who sings, isn't pretty, she's overweight, and doesn't that well...but you can tell she puts her heart into it. The Pastor wears jeans, they don't pass a collection plate but have collection boxes sat around the church, and I've never heard them speak one word about collecting. The Pastor has a good message and seems to speak right to me when I am there. God bless their ministry.

I've been to the other churches like the ones whom you speak of. Their issues don't need to be looked for, they jump up and punch you in the face so to speak.

I have mixed feelings about these churches. One is, you're not there to fit in, you're there to worship, so it doesn't matter how they are, and besides, perhaps God put you there in order to help?

The other is...you should fit in. We are all of the body, and if you do not clique with them or mesh, then consider that while you may be a big toe of the body, that the others could be a wrist, so how can a big tow and wrist mesh? So go ahead and find a church that you fit in at, or it doesn't matter if you mesh. ??

I don't know for sure. My advice is to pray about it and be led of the Spirit to where He wants you to be.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

what did the widow , the apostles, the disciples, stephen, (table waiter), abraham, job, daniel, ruth, esther, david, sarah,
have in common ?

they all trusted Yhwh. (and obeyed Him) (the ones who didn't trust, didn't obey)

if/as/when you trust Yhwh, then no matter where you go trusting and relying on His care and guidance,
He will watch over you, AND He will DELIVER YOU if needed. (from deception, bad powers, demons, etc).

He may or may not deliver(save) the church, but He did deliver that one fish-god town even though the swallowed-by-a-fish man sent to them didn't care to see them delivered...... i.e. it depends on God, not you or man if they are delivered or not.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

Hi Pizza,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts I hope I can offer a different perspective. I actually am the college-age guy with the voice who goes up and leads worship sometimes. I have been classically trained and almost used my talents as a profession. However, I don't go up on stage and look at it as some kind of talent show, rather there are benefits to having a worship leader who can sing well.

The goal of worship leading is not to entertain, but to engage God's people in worship. Having some one onstage who is off pitch or unpleasant to the ear can actually distract people quite a bit and disengage them from worship, rather than having someone who sings the part well, who the congregation can then follow without being too distracting.

I think there is a line of course, and we also get into the issues of preferences such as traditional hymns or contemporary worship styles. Where we fall into error is when we look at one of these preferences and say, "that's wrong and my way is right," because you take the focus off of God and put it on the style of worship. I personally love hymns but I also love contemporary worship, and I think if we patiently consider one another's preferences we can all give glory to God through worship in our preferred methods.

This issue of preference can so easily become divisive in the Church, and that above all things is the worst thing that could happen.

Blessings,
DI

 

[WIP]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

I appreciate what you're saying and for the most part I can agree however where is this concern about a "talent show" coming from? I don't mean any disrespect and I'm not trying to pass judgment but I would encourage you to ask yourself, "is it coming from me?" You do not know the hearts of those who are "performing" or those in the "audience" and that is what God looks too, isn't it? Is it your own heart that sees what is done as entertainment? Are you perhaps being judgmental without due cause?

As one who serves in my own church as a member of the choir we don't "perform" during our Sunday service and other events to draw attention to our own singing ability. We sing to the Lord. Many of our members quite frankly can't hold a tune very well but we are usually pleasantly surprised by how we sound despite this lack of professional ability. I personally hope and trust that what we do brings honor and glory to God and touches those who hear us.

When I am asked to recite the readings for our Sunday service I recognize those readings that have been selected as a message directly from God to us and He has put me in a position to deliver His message therefore I try my best to read them with that in mind. Does that mean I am grandstanding? God knows my heart and what others think is not that important.

Just some food for thought.

 

[DRS81]

Searching for a church that doesn't have a stage and worship music is hard these days. The church I went to the other day left the building after the service in 3 minutes flat, lol. Looked like a spanish bull run. Nobody stayed after and talked. Seriously? What is everybody running from.

 

[Pizza]

I appreciate what you're saying and for the most part I can agree however where is this concern about a "talent show" coming from? I don't mean any disrespect and I'm not trying to pass judgment but I would encourage you to ask yourself, "is it coming from me?" You do not know the hearts of those who are "performing" or those in the "audience" and that is what God looks too, isn't it? Is it your own heart that sees what is done as entertainment? Are you perhaps being judgmental without due cause?

No, I am pointing out a sad, common problem of how so many churches are falling down.

As one who serves in my own church as a member of the choir we don't "perform" during our Sunday service and other events to draw attention to our own singing ability. We sing to the Lord. Many of our members quite frankly can't hold a tune very well but we are usually pleasantly surprised by how we sound despite this lack of professional ability. I personally hope and trust that what we do brings honor and glory to God and touches those who hear us.

The choir is not a problem. Anywhere I've been, the choir ADDS to the service.

 

[WIP]

I understand. Just wanted to advise caution about getting too worked up about it that it becomes a problem for you yourself. Hope I'm making sense. Sometimes what we see from the outside is a bit different from what God sees on the inside.

Look at the ministry. Is repentance and the Gospel being preached? To me, that is the real question.

 

[Deborah13]

Lots of good posts in this thread imo.

 

[Edward]

I appreciate what you're saying and for the most part I can agree however where is this concern about a "talent show" coming from? I don't mean any disrespect and I'm not trying to pass judgment but I would encourage you to ask yourself, "is it coming from me?" You do not know the hearts of those who are "performing" or those in the "audience" and that is what God looks too, isn't it? Is it your own heart that sees what is done as entertainment? Are you perhaps being judgmental without due cause?

As one who serves in my own church as a member of the choir we don't "perform" during our Sunday service and other events to draw attention to our own singing ability. We sing to the Lord. Many of our members quite frankly can't hold a tune very well but we are usually pleasantly surprised by how we sound despite this lack of professional ability. I personally hope and trust that what we do brings honor and glory to God and touches those who hear us.

When I am asked to recite the readings for our Sunday service I recognize those readings that have been selected as a message directly from God to us and He has put me in a position to deliver His message therefore I try my best to read them with that in mind. Does that mean I am grandstanding? God knows my heart and what others think is not that important.

Just some food for thought.

I'll buy that and agree.
I heard a sermon by a Pastor once and he made the point that it really isn't our voices (per se) that God hears when we sing unto Him. But that worshiping and the song takes our spirit to a place (so to speak)...that our spirit begins making noise aside from the song and this is what God hears. That it is more the love and spiritual energy that emanates from our spirit at the time than the actual song even though it be the song which takes our spirit to that state. Which is (at least partially) what is meant by worshiping in the spirit.

Also, that it is this that I speak of, that people hear when you have (perhaps) heard accounts of people seeing/hearing Angels join in to hymns in churches at times...with that last part perhaps being the Pastors speculation about the Angels noise, because I'm not sure if we humans could perceive such a thing.

?? I dunno. Sorta makes sense.

 

[tacdon]

What if these people feel like their worshiping God, who are you to say they aren't worshiping God?

 

[BigSodaExposer]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

Well said. "loud music" is key. I always say what do people want to do when they hear loud music? Party...what do people want to do when they party? play loud music. But we are talking about church services. Those simple hymns are very soft spoken and positive. And the church sings it without microphones or speakers...just using what God gave you.

Being a christian gives you the tenderheart and all this makes sense to me now. But it didnt years ago before I found God.