My problem with Church

[Obadiah]

...The goal of worship leading is not to entertain, but to engage God's people in worship. Having some one onstage who is off pitch or unpleasant to the ear can actually distract people quite a bit and disengage them from worship, rather than having someone who sings the part well, who the congregation can then follow without being too distracting...

We are told in scripture "Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom." (Ecc 9:10, NLT) I think I would paraphrase that as "Do a good job while you can because one day it will be too late." If one's part in the body of Christ is to lead worship music, he should strive to do it well. If he has no talent or no desire to do it well, maybe that's not the job that God intended him to have. In so many places in scripture where worship is described, it's not the preacher's sermon or the collection of money that is focused on, a big part of it is the worship of God through music and dancing. (GASP! Yes. Even DANCING!!!) Whether the worship leaders attitude is one of showing off his talent or of serving God to the best of his ability is only known to God. We shouldn't judge a person because it is important to them to work in the areas of the body of Christ where God has given them talent, and they work hard to do that to the best of their ability.

This also applies to those playing the instruments, the person who picks the songs, and the person controlling the sound system too.

There's nothing wrong with using the modern tools available to us to enhance worship such as an electronic sound system and instruments, especially since so many building that churches meet in are no longer designed and built with natural acoustics in mind like they used to be. It's not what is used, or what music is used, or even what volume it's at that matters. It's whether or not the leaders (all of them) are allowing themselves to be guided by the Holy Spirit in how they are leading. I regularly worship just fine through everything from old hymns sung softly to loud Christian rock and everything in between. It's not the music or the volume, it's the leading of the Holy Spirit for the situation at hand that matters.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

PIzza I totally agree.I do not see God in the Churches I have attended.I see the world.This is very sad but true.

Searching for a church that doesn't have a stage and worship music is hard these days. The church I went to the other day left the building after the service in 3 minutes flat, lol. Looked like a spanish bull run. Nobody stayed after and talked. Seriously? What is everybody running from.

david wilkerson, corrie ten boom, watchman nee, keith green(weird, but true; with wha't next) >>
e.w. bullinger, george mueller, paul(the apostle), bercot ("will the real heretics please stand up" book),
psalms (king david, etc), 1 john 1 - 5, philippians, ... ... ... ... ... and on and on and on the witness go..... Bible, Spirit, Believers
agreeing with the above clearly. the 'spirit of the world' (or , worse), has 'taken over' most 'worship' attempts by 'worldly' christians. to be set free requires at least , simply, seeking God and truth and willingness to give up all that is not of God.

 

[Obadiah]

Searching for a church that doesn't have a stage and worship music is hard these days.

There is noting unscriptural about a "stage" if it is used for the right purpose (to allow those in the congregation to see what they need to see) and in light of all the scripture supporting music as a form of worship, why would you want to find a church that doesn't have music?

 

[ironmonk]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

So what are you going to do pizza?

 

[tacdon]

OP- It sounds like you have a problem with people being excellent.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

(We will not quote scripture with no chapter and verse reference and add our own words to it claiming this is what the Bible says.. Obadiah.)

 

[tacdon]

(Removed as it responds to a removed post. Obadiah)

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

OP- It sounds like you have a problem with people being excellent.

what the entertainers call excellent is not the same as what God calls excellent. I think that's what the OP is referring to, as others also have noted.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

"2 Corinthians 4:3-4
Amplified Bible (AMP)

3 But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah)..... "


http://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Matthew 6:2
Matthew 6:2 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

2 “[L So] When you give to the poor, don’t be like the hypocrites. They blow trumpets [C either figuratively (“blow their own horn”) or literally, since trumpets sometimes announced public events] in the synagogues and on the streets so that people will see them and ·honor [admire] them. I tell you the truth, those hypocrites already have their full reward [C praise from people, rather than reward from God]. ...... "

Matthew 6:5-8
Expanded Bible (EXB)

Jesus Teaches About Prayer
5 “When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites. They love to stand in the synagogues and on the street corners and pray so people will ·see [notice] them. I tell you the truth, they already have their full reward. 6 When you pray, you should go into your [private; inner] room and close the door and pray to your Father ·who cannot be seen [or who is in that secret place; or secretly; in private]. Your Father can see what is done in ·secret [private], and he will reward you.

7 “And when you pray, don’t be like ·those people who don’t know God [the pagans/Gentiles/heathen]. They ·continue saying things that mean nothing [babble; repeat empty phrases], thinking ·that God will hear them [L they will be heard; C the passive verb implies God as subject] because of their many words. 8 Don’t Matthew 6:5-13

J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)

5-8 “And then, when you pray, don’t be like the play-actors. They love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at street-corners so that people may see them at it. Believe me, they have had all the reward they are going to get. But when you pray, go into your own room, shut your door and pray to your Father privately. Your Father who sees all private things will reward you. And when you pray don’t rattle off long prayers like the pagans who think they will be heard because they use so many words. Don’t be like them.... "

.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

I had a good point, but forgot what it was.
(I think it was a quote from Scripture, but I forgot to put in the verse and chapter and translation reference so it got deleted.)
No worries. God knows.
"Be God's fool" --- i.e. not worldly smart or chic or cool or 'acceptable' even. (like trying to make points?) .
"..that's the path to true wisdom."

"1 Corinthians 3:18-20
The Message (MSG)
18-20 Don’t fool yourself. Don’t think that you can be wise merely by being up-to-date with the times. Be God’s fool—that’s the path to true wisdom. What the world calls smart, God calls stupid. It’s written in Scripture,
He exposes the chicanery of the chic.
The Master sees through the smoke screens
of the know-it-alls."

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

.... and so .... I went outside to the truck to plug in my cell phone that was plugged in to the usb port on the computer but still dropped to 1% (loose connection or something - don't know yet)
and plugged in the cell phone to the car charger, then picked up "BY CHANCE" the little devotional booklet I got last week ,
called
"Portals of Prayer April - June 2014"
and opened it to today and lo and behold, angels singing from on high !
the
title is "Power from on High" and it is so pertinent (even though I don't 'agree' fully with the author of the page/booklet, some good things still may come from it ....

and it reads as follows

"The word empower is commonly used today by many self=help gurus. They speak of empowerment or of empowering ourselves to pursue our dreams. We are told that if we can dream it, we can make it reality.
"But without Christ, it's all about self-reliance. (my underline)

"Jesus doesn't speak of empowerment as self-reliance. Rather, He points His disciples to the skies. He directs them to wait for the "power from on hign," the Holy Spirit, whom the Father would send. The disciples had witnessed Jesus fulfill Scripture. He lifted up His hands on the cross as a sacrifice for sin. Next, He was lifted up from the tomb. Then, after commissioning His disciples,

"Jesus lifted up His hands once more and blessed them.


"Finally, as He was lifted up into heaven, He promised to send the Holy Spirit--the source of divine power.

"Now,
the first thing the disciples were to do was to wait.



Then, after the Spirit came upon them, they were empowered to fulfill their mission with "power from on high."
_______________________________________________________________________________________

Remember how many times we are told to wait ?
In Genesis, Psalms, Matthew, Mark, Luke , John, Revelation.
Then,
however, the author of this page in the little booklet takes a turn from Scripture.

He departs from what is written
and
says "we don't have to wait.".

and I think that's what the OP observes what he observes (and the rest of us who observe what he observes.).

and that makes all the difference.

 

[Obadiah]

Just to clarify something, although we have been rather lenient with some people regarding not following the copyright law about citing scripture references, we can not allow scripture to be re-worded to fit a person's statement, even when that statement makes a valid point. When a person states something like "The Bible says..." or "Paul says..." or "Jesus said..." and then puts a statement in quotation marks this indicates it is intended as a direct quote of scripture and the words are not to be modified from the translation being quoted.

In addition to the copyright law problem and I think more importantly, not including a chapter, verse, and version reference prevents people from seeing for themselves if the scripture is quoted correctly or not, and from studying it within it's context for themselves. It's not a difficult thing to include the reference with a direct scripture quote, and I think I will be watching more closely for this from now on, at least here in the A&T forum. Ok, enough said on that I hope.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

This guy gets it:

http://holysoup.com/2014/05/21/why-...ds=10203239592046251&fb_action_types=og.likes

My response to his piece:
I have said it before, and I will say it again, MOST church services today are NOT worship services, they are talent shows. I make FEW exceptions to my statement. The piece makes my point better than I can. WORSHIP is not about TALENT, the pretty young girl holding the mic, or the handsome college-age guy with the great voice. Now, putting such people up to sing a solo is fine! But when the service becomes about talent, it is no longer worship. Loud music is not worship, hymns are to be sung as almost a prayer, and the mind is to be focused on our Lord. In the church I spent most of my early years (age 17 to 30) the songleader sang not much better than the rest of us - and the lesson here was that ALL can sing unto the Lord. The church has not progressed, it has become worldly and fleshly and fake.

I hope I put this in the right forum!

historically speaking, as in http://www.cfcindia.com/web/books/zac/the_full_gospel.html (a good read, not fully tested)
there have been times of revival. but the revival hardly if ever lasts more than one generation (it's not automatically nor otherwise passed down from father to son or mother to daughter or pastor to next pastor).
this is how it was in the Bible also --- prophet after prophet was sent by God.... well read the link, it's not too long ---
God's people keep going astray like lost sheep, and needing someone to preach "repent!" again and again and again as people are just not very good at following Godly instructions and avoiding the devil's instructions.

 

[DRS81]

There is noting unscriptural about a "stage" if it is used for the right purpose (to allow those in the congregation to see what they need to see) and in light of all the scripture supporting music as a form of worship, why would you want to find a church that doesn't have music?

Music is fine. I'm still a little new to the church stuff. It's a new experience for me.

 

[for_his_glory]

When a Church puts more emphasis on the music and less on the word then I have a problem with that. My husband and I have been looking for a good home Church ever since we on the board voted to unfortunately close the doors on the one we use to attend and just can not find one we feel set to settle into. It's either all music that only leads one to be emotional for a moment or it's a false gospel being taught through mans traditional teachings. We use to attend a home Bible study group, but eventually that feel apart due to different peoples work hours and lack of attendance.

I get a better fellowship coming into forums like this one as we share the word of God and what we believe, even though we might not always agree, but for me I am challenged by many of you to dig deeper into the word as I spend many hours of the day in here and in the Bible. If I want music I can worship and praise in the privacy of my own home. What I want is truth in the word and I will get that only by studying for myself and learning from those who are more knowledgeable in the word than I am. To me CF is my Church as we are one body united in Christ.

 

[Obadiah]

Music is fine. I'm still a little new to the church stuff. It's a new experience for me.

I see. In your other post you said searching for a church without worship music is hard these days. I thought you were saying you were trying to find one that doesn't use music, but in re-reading it I guess you were just saying it would be hard to find one IF someone was actually trying to find one. I misunderstood.

 

[Pizza]

Sorry everyone, didn't mean to start a thread and then leave - but I ended up traveling for the company - in fact, I'm in a hotel room right now, 300 miles from home. I am not complaining - the best part of my job is the travel.

I do believe we can praise Him with "trimbel and dance" (Psalm150:4) - but we can't WORSHIP with loud music and a show on stage.
And if a church does want to present a loud music show at times, fine - but I can't see that being the service every Sunday morning.

 

[Obadiah]

...I do believe we can praise Him with "trimbel and dance" (Psalm150:4) - but we can't WORSHIP with loud music and a show on stage.
And if a church does want to present a loud music show at times, fine - but I can't see that being the service every Sunday morning.

Pizza, I'm curious then, since you quoted Ps 150:4 and say we can't worship with loud music, what are your thoughts on the very next verse, (Ps 150:5, KJV, emphasis mine), "Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals"?

Of course, putting on a "show" for entertainment isn't worship, but the fact that the music is loud doesn't necessarily mean it's a show and the fact that the music is soft doesn't necessarily mean it's NOT a show.

 

[reba]

There is a difference between a Jesus pep rally and worship... Both are good both have their place

Great to see ya Pizza good to know you are working and travelling ...Praise the Most High

 

[Pizza]

Thanks Reba - I'm traveling every week now and, of course, it feels good to be "back among the living".

Obadiah:
Those verses speak of PRAISING Him, and again, I agree that He can be (and sometimes, maybe, SHOULD be) praised with loud music - I am ok with that.

But I do believe that to "be still and know that I am God" requires that we, well, be "still". I do not believe that our emotions are all bad or out of place in church, but I also know that I, personally, come closer to Him in quiet times of prayer. NOT after attending a church service where I can feel the beat of the drum set in my chest.

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks Reba - I'm traveling every week now and, of course, it feels good to be "back among the living".

Obadiah:
Those verses speak of PRAISING Him, and again, I agree that He can be (and sometimes, maybe, SHOULD be) praised with loud music - I am ok with that.

But I do believe that to "be still and know that I am God" requires that we, well, be "still". I do not believe that our emotions are all bad or out of place in church, but I also know that I, personally, come closer to Him in quiet times of prayer. NOT after attending a church service where I can feel the beat of the drum set in my chest.

I agree completely. Both types have their places and I believe both are scriptural. There's nothing wrong with having personal preferences for those things that do the most for us in our walk with the Lord!