names in the book of life?

[stovebolts]

Thanks for clearing that up....

That is a good point you mention and I also referred to having a name worth writing in Post #6 referring to Rev 3:5.

Yes I saw that! Fight the good fight Sister! (1 Timothy 1:18)

 

[BornAgain]

Yes I saw that! Fight the good fight Sister!

Amen!

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans teaches there are none righteousness and we have all sinned and this also includes a baby while it's still in the womb. God knows who are His from the foundation of the world as His elect and will have mercy on His elect as His grace is unmerited. We do not like to hear babies are also doomed to the lake of fire, but only God knows the intent of our hearts. This is a good website that explains the age of accountability and even I was enlightened that there is no age of accountability. Read all the scriptures he gives and take time to study them and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal understanding.

http://www.scionofzion.com/age.htm

 

[BornAgain]

Romans teaches there are none righteousness and we have all sinned and this also includes a baby while it's still in the womb. God knows who are His from the foundation of the world as His elect and will have mercy on His elect as His grace is unmerited. We do not like to hear babies are also doomed to the lake of fire, but only God knows the intent of our hearts. This is a good website that explains the age of accountability and even I was enlightened that there is no age of accountability. Read all the scriptures he gives and take time to study them and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal understanding.

http://www.scionofzion.com/age.htm

What bible do you read? Please provide scripture....I don't rely on web sites and man made doctrine.

How can a baby sin in a womb?

 

[rrowell]

Romans teaches there are none righteousness and we have all sinned and this also includes a baby while it's still in the womb.

No, It doesn't:

Romans 9:10-11 (KJV)
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

 

[for_his_glory]

BornAgain and rrowell I said to go to the website and read and study the scriptures that were given or would you just want me to post them all here as I never said to believe what this person is teaching. There are good and bad websites and that is why we learn to Spiritually discern truth from error. I see nothing wrong with what this man teaches, but it's your lose if you do not want to read the scriptures given and by the way I study from the KJV and also the Jerusalem Bible to compare scripture with scripture, but mainly the KJV.

 

[for_his_glory]

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 58:3-4
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

These are but a few scriptures. If all babies are saved from birth then none of us would need a Savior as we were all babies at one time. Our names are written in the Lambs book of Life even before we were formed in our mothers belly as God has already known who is His elect and who will endure until the end.

 

[farouk]

Bingo Farouk

Do you truly understand the gospel? Is there nothing more there to learn? That is about as philosophical as i get....

reba:

'Bingo Farouk'?

(I can now reveal that I was named for my great-grandfather, Z. Bingo Farouk III...)

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 3:10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psalm 5the wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

These are but a few scriptures. If all babies are saved from birth then none of us would need a Savior as we were all babies at one time. Our names are written in the Lambs book of Life even before we were formed in our mothers belly as God has already known who is His elect and who will endure until the end.

I have addressed pslm 51 in post 35. I would be more than happy to dialog with you on the matter.


The passage in romans 3 is a summary of chapter 1. In a nut shell, jews sin, gentiles sin. Thus, all have sinned. This is the proper way to understand that verse. We don't look at the passages that say all will be saved on an individual basis, so why would we use the word all in romans 3 the same way? Let us be consistant and accurate with our interpretation. All in romans 3 means both gentiles and jews. In context, all is referring to classes of people, not individual people.


The other 2 verses you have posted are also out of context and I fear you are looking at scripture as data points and doctirnal statements. Most of us have done that at one. Point or another. My sinscere suggestion to you would be to put away your commentary etc and just read genesis, deuteronomy, 1 and 2 samual a few times and really understand the stories as they are intended. Then jump into romans and I think you will start to see things that are currently hidden from you.

 

[farouk]

It's been said we are not sinners because we happen to sin; we sin because we are sinners by nature. (And I think this is Biblical.)

 

[for_his_glory]

I stand behind those few scriptures I gave and would also like to add these ones as a cross reference and no this is not from any commentary, but what I have looked up in scripture.
Romans 3:9,10; 9:9,10; Psalms 14:1-3; Psalms 58:3,4, Psalms 92:7; 2 Samuel 12:22,23; Joshua Chapter 7; Ephesians 1:4,5.

God choose us and predestined us from the foundation of this world. He made us for His good pleasure to take care of that which He created, but sin was found in Adam and Eve and that nature passed down to their children and all the generations to come. We can see from scripture that we sin from the womb, meaning we are conceived in sin and come out of the womb with sin indwelt in us, and even as a newborn child God knows the intents of the heart. I will use one example from the website I posted. Who taught you how to lie when you were a child. Was it your parents, or was it the sin that was already indwelt in you. Even at birth God knows who are going to be His own and it is for that reason he does allow certain children to be taken out by physical death as in the account of Achon and his family being stoned to death for the sin Achon and his family committed against God, Joshua Chapter 7, as even his children had sinful hearts that would never come to God. Same with Sodom and Gomorrah and even Davids child who was conceived out of sin. I know it's a hard thing to think God would take out little children, but facts are facts whether we like them or not and if we would read scripture for the context it is written in then we would understand such things as this.

 

[stovebolts]

For his Glory,
We seem to have a problem that you can't seem to recognize or reconcile. Scripture has also been provided that shows that an unborn child cannot sin and not only that, but an unborn child is wonderfully made.

I am not trying to change your mind, as it seems your mind has already been set. But I would ask for you to at least address the scriptures that state what is contrary to your doctrines. Are you able to do that?

 

[Adullam]

It's been said we are not sinners because we happen to sin; we sin because we are sinners by nature. (And I think this is Biblical.)

That is, until we are born from above with the new divine nature.

 

[for_his_glory]

For his Glory,
We seem to have a problem that you can't seem to recognize or reconcile. Scripture has also been provided that shows that an unborn child cannot sin and not only that, but an unborn child is wonderfully made.

I am not trying to change your mind, as it seems your mind has already been set. But I would ask for you to at least address the scriptures that state what is contrary to your doctrines. Are you able to do that?

It seems one verse, Romans 9:11 in particular, is being used to illustrate babies even before they are born or even after birth do not sin. This is not what this verse means. What this is saying that before Rebecca's twins were born, who's father was Issac the seed of Abraham who also had the inheritance of Gods covenant he made with Abraham in Genesis 12, and before either one had a chance to do good or evil even they were predestined by God for His purpose. This verse has nothing to do with a baby from the womb sinning or not as sin is indwelt in us in the same sense like our DNA. Yes we are all wonderfully made as even in the image of God, but yet indwelled with that certain type of DNA that we also inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

[rrowell]

It seems one verse, Romans 9:11 in particular, is being used to illustrate babies even before they are born or even after birth do not sin. This is not what this verse means. What this is saying that before Rebecca's twins were born, who's father was Issac the seed of Abraham who also had the inheritance of Gods covenant he made with Abraham in Genesis 12, and before either one had a chance to do good or evil even they were predestined by God for His purpose. This verse has nothing to do with a baby from the womb sinning or not as sin is indwelt in us in the same sense like our DNA. Yes we are all wonderfully made as even in the image of God, but yet indwelled with that certain type of DNA that we also inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve.

Sin is a spiritual disconnect from God, we do not inherit our Spirit...

One man has earthly flesh and a spirit in one body, when one dies the body returns to dust, the spirit goes back to the one who gave it:


Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
7. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Now to say a Baby is born with an inheritance of Sin would by nature mean that the spirit is inherited from the father/mother and this cannot be because the Spirit comes from God, you would be making God culpable for creating a Sinful Spirit or Sin of which he would not do...

One has to work hard at making the doctrine of born with sin fit, requires twisting scripture as you just did with Romans 9:11, Twisting what David said in Psalms 51:5 posted below, contradicting Ezekiel 18:19-20 posted below that one, Psalms 51:5 is the very scripture the born with sin doctrine rides on and is flat out contradicted with Romans 9:11 and Ezekiel 18:19-20, Davids MOTHER was the sinner in a sinning woman "was he shapen" (i.e. if you were shapen in your mothers womb and your mother was a harlot, does that make you a sinner because she was sinning when you were conceived?)

No no no... Your body can inherit many things from your parent but not the Spirit that comes from God, what ever you inherit from your parent returns to the Dust, the Spirit back to God.

Psalms 51:5 (KJV)
5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 (KJV)
19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[stovebolts]

It seems one verse, Romans 9:11 in particular, is being used to illustrate babies even before they are born or even after birth do not sin. This is not what this verse means. What this is saying that before Rebecca's twins were born, who's father was Issac the seed of Abraham who also had the inheritance of Gods covenant he made with Abraham in Genesis 12, and before either one had a chance to do good or evil even they were predestined by God for His purpose. This verse has nothing to do with a baby from the womb sinning or not as sin is indwelt in us in the same sense like our DNA. Yes we are all wonderfully made as even in the image of God, but yet indwelled with that certain type of DNA that we also inherited by the fall of Adam and Eve.

Romans 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.

We see here that an election was made well before either were born that the older would serve the younger and it was not based on anything the unborn child had done, or failed to do. If you look at the life of Jacob, he wasn't what I'd call an upstanding principled young man and even his name bore this out, as did his birth. Too often we believe that God chooses people based on their good moral character, but we see otherwise in the case of Jacob and Esau. Other times we want to believe that God's mercy will be never ending, but the truth of the matter is that like Pharaoh, we will all come under judgment and Pharaoh is an example of that as well.

Humanity has always had the propensity to sin and that started at creation. I would not say that God created Adam and Eve sinful, but he certainly created them with the propensity to sin. And what did God say when he had created humanity? It is good. God didn't say "It is perfect" and I think there is a big difference there.

So lets back up and look at the verses.

11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad.

Is one sinning by doing nothing?

James 1:14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

What evil desire would a child have? Kicking it's mother in the rib because he / she's mad at mom for eating something horrible? What then would be such an evil desire that it would entice a child to kick mom in the womb that would case a child to sin? How about when baby is hungry or needs diaper changed? Is it an evil desire to be hungry?

Just give me one example of something bad an infant in the womb would desire to do against mom that whatever baby did, would be called sin.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can see that none of us will see eye to eye on this issue so I am going to bow out of this with all that I have said and with what you have said and will study deeper on this issue. God bless and thank you for a good discussion.

 

[stovebolts]

I can see that none of us will see eye to eye on this issue so I am going to bow out of this with all that I have said and with what you have said and will study deeper on this issue. God bless and thank you for a good discussion.

And may God bless you in your studies.
If I may leave you with one thing it would be this. It is easy to formulate high theologies, but scripture is always grounded in the simplest of truths that are often overlooked even when they can be easily recognized in our day to day lives. Unfortunately, we often take these simple truths for granted and they drop off our radar.

I have enjoyed your pleasant demeanor.

Grace and Peace.

 

[stovebolts]

What a great thread. I'm more enlightened and confused than ever now. I have a hard time believing that a child can willfully sin in the womb, yet I (think) I can understand that, at the moment of conception, all of the mothers and fathers traits, and the state of their heart(s) are passed on to the child genetically. So this could account for the child being conceived in sin, and perhaps needing a savior immediately. Even if they have never willfully sinned yet.

OTOH, the child cannot reason yet, and the mother/fathers sins seem to be scripturally backed that that mothers/fathers sins are not imputed to the child. But kids learn fast and fall into sin quickly. They have an inkling of right and wrong even at two years old, like when mommy says time to go to bed now and the kid yells NO! and turns and runs. They know they're not doing what mama has instructed. It is perhaps that we are naturally drawn to sin more-so than to God because of the nature of the flesh. Hmm. this is interesting and I need to study on it a bit more. Thanks for a good discussion.

Edward,
Children don't sin in the womb, yet David at least states that he was conceived in sin.
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

This is to simply say that when his ma and pa were making woopie, they were indulging in sexual pleasures with a child being their furthest thought. Happens all the time.. nothing new here. However, there are a few that would take that verse and make it say something otherwise.... Like an infant was some sort of sinner sinning in the womb. Amazing how bad theology can twist what is clearly otherwise huh?

Put it this way. Lets say that somebody sins, and that sin has a direct effect on you. Does one inherit that sin simply because they are within proximity of it or can we simply say that one is to the effect of said sin, and not the cause of the sin.