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Natural Born Killers

Mike

Mike

Member
I'm copying most of a random post from another thread, because I feel it's worth its own thread. Not a new topic, I'm sure.

Pit Bulls and Rottweilers are menaces, IMO. They're dangerously liable to snap into instinct at any time. And before anyone says it's the owners, not the dogs, I'm not seeing too many basset-hounds in the news for sinking their teeth into small children. :gah

Every time there's a news story about one of these "dogs" sending someone to the hospital or worse, you can bet there will be the guy who says it isn't the dog's fault, but the owner's. In a way I agree, because they're doing what's in their nature, and the owner is at fault for setting them up. But please don't come with the notion that they wouldn't be this way if they were raised to be docile. There's a reason you very rarely see other dogs involved. They're wired differently.

When I see these stories, I don't want to see the animal put down, because it's not its fault it was put in this position. It's the owner's. But the animal should be removed, and the owners should take full responsibility as though they assaulted someone themselves. :grumpy
 
Yeah it's wired for a purpose. It's like prison. You can try to train a criminal to stop something, say raping, but it's just there and the only way they can come away from that is to come to God. Since animals can't come to God, well I guess they're screwed...

I do think the dogs ought to be put down, though. Once a dog tastes flesh you can't ever be certain if they will come back for more. Besides once it's trained to follow it's hard-wired nature its gonna be hard to retrain the thing.

In other news, I have poodles... they are ferocious dogs that instill total terror into anyone who meets their gaze... and by terror I do, of course, mean utter laughter at their idiotic antics. And by ferocious I do mean that you will literally fall over (and even off the bed) with uncontrollable laughter. :lol
 
I don't know Mike...people used to say the same thing about Doberman's and we had a Doberman growing up, and he was the sweetest thing ever. One of my (many) neighbor's had a Rottie, and she was a sweetheart as well, as a matter of fact I've known about 7 Rotties and 5 out the 7 of them are really nice dogs, family dogs, gentle with the kids...etc.

My sister had a Pitt Bull and he was a really good dog too. It's funny because they had a dog that couldn't really be trusted and had to get rid of it, but it wasn't the Pitt, it was a Lab/mutt and one would think that it should have been the best dog in the world, but it kept snapping at people.

Yeah, when Rotties and Pitts do kill people, it makes news...but it isn't as if other dogs don't bite. One of the worst biting dogs with the meanest temperament I ever knew was Steve's grandma's toy poodle. It loved Grandma and not another living thing on the planet...we were all bitten by it at least once, but it was so tiny that the bites weren't that big of a deal. Another really bad biter that bit me a lot of times was a neighbor's Pekineses. Sheesh, I hated that dog, every time I needed to get out of my car to open the gate it would shoot out from the bushes and try to bite my ankle. Nailed me I don't know how many times. I complained to the neighbor, but with her boyfriend in jail and her kid on drugs, I guess she had bigger problems than the dog.

Poodles and Pekes don't kill anyone, but not because they wouldn't if they were bigger. Nasty tempered dogs, those little ones.

Give me a big ole, goofy mutt dog every time!
 
Who'd ever own a toy poodle? Man the only use they have is to act as self retrieving footballs. :lol

We got standards, somewhere between 50 and 75 pounds each and when standing they can look you in the eye (and trust me they are always standing up attempting to hug).

I don't think I made it clear. A dog like a pitbull can be trained to be a good dog but it doesn't require normal training, it requires training that goes above and beyond the norm.
 
Well, I believe you can train these dogs all you want, but something can snap in them which reverts them to their nature. And that's natural! I've heard it enough to believe it that poodles do have the highest incident rate of bites. But I think we can use common sense and determine there is a stark difference between the bite of a typical dog and the unrelenting lock-jaw of a Pit or Rott. But, look at the stats.

  • 23 U.S. fatal dog attacks occurred in 2008. Pit bull type dogs were responsible for 65% (15). Pit bulls make up approximately 5% of the U.S. dog population.2
  • In 2008, only one U.S. citizen over the age of 3 was killed by a breed other than a pit bull. 74-year old Lorraine May was fatally mauled by her two dogs: an Australian shepherd-mix and a golden retriever-mix.
Click to expand...
2008 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - DogsBite.org

And this is only fatalities. I tried to search for statistics that would cite the incident rate of "serious injury", but that can be a vague term and hard to agree upon. I think it's fair to say you could extrapolate out from the fatality rate and get in the ball park percentage-wise.

Ian, it's hard for me to say "put them down" because: A - they're behaving true to their nature, and B - I'm sure there are rescue missions that would take them. Dora, to me it doesn't matter that they inflict more serious injury because of their size and strength. Pitt Bulls do kill more than other dogs. When is the last time you can EVER remember another dog in the news? And the stats from the CDC support their reputation. I admit, I was surprised to see Rottweilers down on the list, but I'd really like to see a report with maiming rates.

My guess is that many of these owners of dogs that have either killed or seriously wounded a person would not have expected "their dog" to do what they did. But these dogs are capable of so much mutilation, it takes one moment of instinct for a situation to become deadly.
 
I don't agree with Rott's or Doberman's being naturally mean. Maybe because I have owned both and they were not the most ideal protectors. My Rott/Lab male mix who passed a couple years ago seemed to be looking for a fight about half the time. I'l tell you the chihuahua I had as a kid was the meanest pound for pound dog I ever saw. Not trying to derail the thread, just saying. Now pit bulls, yeah they are a whole different story. I would never have one I don't care how gentle it may seem!
 
Riverwolf, we knew some people we've since lost contact with who brought home a Rott puppy. I'll always remember the size, thickness and strength of his paws even as a puppy. To me, it was an ominous feeling, like a foreshadowing of the strength he would one day have. Even as a small puppy, he would have had the capability to very quickly do great harm to a small child.

Yes, Chihuahuas can be nippy, but anything or anyone can have the intent to harm yet not the capability. We own a Bichon Frise, and it's amusing how (in his world) he's a beast. But, that just makes us laugh, because... he's a Bichon! :lol

An infant should never be left alone with any dog, but absent a weapon, anyone is vulnerable to the strength of a Pitt Bull or Rottweiler. I have no doubt that most of them are docile, but they ALWAYS posses the potential to inflict lethal harm. It may be latent, but it's there. And it only takes one moment when these animals turn on others as countless news stories have documented.
 
From the perspective that any animal has the potential to lash out and the larger the animal the more danger involved, yes, I agree with that wholly. When Buttons the Toy Poodle snapped and tried to bite anyone and everyone who came within a few feet of Grandma, it was irritating, annoying and on one level kind of funny, but hardly dangerous.

If Buttons had been the size of a Rottie, Dobie or Pit, he would have been a killing machine. The dog just had a really mean temperament. And, Grandma had him from when he was really little and never, ever mistreated him, so I don't know why he was so danged onery...but he was. However, he weighed about 3 lbs soaking wet and his little mouth was about as big as my thumb, so he was more of an annoyance, not a threat.

Now, our Dobie weighed 125 lbs, and once he bit down on something, like the time he got ahold of the neighbor's dog, it took a lot to get him to let go. The story about the neighbor's dog is this: Our house had a detached garage with a breezeway between it and the house and was closed off by a little gate. Everyday, the neighbor's dog, some kind of mutt, no particular breed, would come over to our house, bark at Rajah, pee on our bushes and make a general nuisance of himself. We complained to the neighbors several times, but they wouldn't keep their dog penned. Rajah could easily have cleared the gate, it was only about 3 feet high, but he never did. There was a lot of barking, but that was about it. Then, one day, Rajah did get out, it happened occaisonally. Usually, when he got out of the backyard, he just ran around the neighborhood until we called him back in. This particular time, he made a beeline to that neighbor's house, and the dog was sitting in their yard. Rajah nailed him, and I think would have killed him, except my grandfather was there and had me turn the hose full onto his face, while Grandpa lifted up Rajah's back legs so he couldn't get a good foundation to use his strength. Even still, it took a good five minutes to break off Rajah's grip.

Once we broke off the grip, the neighbor got his dog into their house, pronto, and Rajah very docily followed us back home. No "killing machine", just a dog who had a score to pay.

The neighbor called the sheriff and tried his darndest to force us to put Rajah to sleep but the other neighbors, kept calling the Sheriff's Department and said how Rajah was a gentle, friendly, nice dog and the neighbor's dog was allowed to run loose and be a pest, so nothing ever came of it.

Now, this was when Doberman's were the media's favorite "viscious" dog...all kinds of media attention was on what natural born killers they were, that they could never be trusted, pretty much the same kind of stuff you hear about Pit bulls now. I knew then that the media reports weren't true about Doberman's and, based on the Pit's and Rotties that I've known, I don't believe it about them either.

That some dogs can be like this is no doubt, but not an entire breed of dog.
 
My wife loves herding dogs like collies and shetland sheepdogs. But I have never been able to get her to understand that she can't have these breeds and not expect them to chase cars and our horses. She just doesn't get it that that is what they do instinctively. She's constantly scolding our dog when she barks and chases the horses or the cars that come down the driveway.

Dogs that have been bred to be aggressive will very likely be aggressive and I have never believed it is possible to expect anything different. I think owners are folling themselves if they think they can train instinct out of their pet and it's a dangerous thing.
 
Sure there are dogs born with the instinct to maim and kill but it truly is the owner's fault. I've raised my dog from puppyhood and if we had let her do anything she wanted, she'd still be biting us and messing up our floors and chewing on our clothes. Yes her personality is naturally sweet and good tempered but she would be a very different dog if we hadn't trained her.

I'm not saying that all dogs will become wonderful and docile dogs if you train them but I'd say more than half of the dog attacks are the fault of the owner.
 
WIP said:
Dogs that have been bred to be aggressive will very likely be aggressive and I have never believed it is possible to expect anything different. I think owners are folling themselves if they think they can train instinct out of their pet and it's a dangerous thing.
Click to expand...

This hits on something I've considered. I believe they were originally cross-bred to be aggressive. Certain breads of animals and plants have combined for the purpose of certain characteristics. Why not find just the right combination for defense or offensive behavior?

God&DogGirl said:
Sure there are dogs born with the instinct to maim and kill but it truly is the owner's fault. I've raised my dog from puppyhood and if we had let her do anything she wanted, she'd still be biting us and messing up our floors and chewing on our clothes. Yes her personality is naturally sweet and good tempered but she would be a very different dog if we hadn't trained her.

I'm not saying that all dogs will become wonderful and docile dogs if you train them but I'd say more than half of the dog attacks are the fault of the owner.
Click to expand...

Here, I would say then that either:

A. Only Pitt Bull and Rottweiler owners (or a disproportional amount) have not raised their pets with love and affection and no (of few) other breed owners are negligent.
B. This could be true, and we only read the headlines because of their capability to inflict injury.

Either way, it is what it is. We almost never hear of other breeds killing or maiming a person or another animal, and the statistics are there to back it up. I don't think anyone who owns another breed can use their experience to say it simply takes love.
 
handy said:
That some dogs can be like this is no doubt, but not an entire breed of dog.
Click to expand...

Dora, obviously not all of them resort to this or act on this instinct, but I think there is enough of an incident rate attributed to them for us to take a step back and say there is something not right. Like I said to WIP, they might have been originally bred to be aggressive, so perhaps it is hardwired into them. :shrug
 
Mike said:
Here, I would say then that either:

A. Only Pitt Bull and Rottweiler owners (or a disproportional amount) have not raised their pets with love and affection and no (of few) other breed owners are negligent.
B. This could be true, and we only read the headlines because of their capability to inflict injury.

Either way, it is what it is. We almost never hear of other breeds killing or maiming a person or another animal, and the statistics are there to back it up. I don't think anyone who owns another breed can use their experience to say it simply takes love.
Click to expand...

I do agree that a disproportional amount of Pit Bull and Rottweiler owners have not raised their pets with love and affection...I think the breeds attract those who want dangerous dogs and raise the poor pup to be dangerous.

However, I think you might be misled by the media. Back in the early '70's it was the Doberman Pincher that was supposed to be the killer dog and at that time many of the type that wanted a dangerous dog sought out the Dobie. The media hype back then was this...if bowser bit a kid, it might have reached a local paper, if the cops were called, maybe...

But, if a Dobie bit someone, man, call the 6:00 News and report the police proceedings, the owners in court and the petitions to put the killer dog down.

The same thing is happening today, but it's far more the Pit Bull who gets the bad press with Rotties coming in for a close second.

Back in the mid to late '70's, breeders of Dobermans and animal rights activists started to push back on the media blitz and now Dobies are considered loving and loyal family pets, not vicious killers. I do think that Pit Bulls and Rotties will also slowly gain back the reputation for being loving and loyal pets as well.

Let me tell you a personal story about Dan, my sister's Pit (now gone)...We lived in a small, fairly peaceful town, but one night, when I was housesitting for my sister, there was some kind of ruckus. I didn't know then that there was a drug deal going very, very bad a couple of streets over, I just knew that I heard shouting, gunshots, car tires screeching and sirens...all very uncommon for our neighborhood.

Dan and I were alone in the house, and I took the step of locking the front and back doors, then I went back to watching TV. Dan came over, and sat on the couch right beside me, hindquarters on the couch and front legs on the floor. He was fairly relaxed, but he could have sprung into action at any time. Periodically throughout the couple of hours this lasted, he would turn around and give me a lick or nuzzle. After things quieted down, he climbed all the way up and snuggled beside me.

Now, Dan wasn't my dog...I was just house/doggy sitting. But, he was such an affectionate dog, and he sensed there were bad things happening and he didn't leave my side.

He was with my sister and her family all while the kids were growing up, and as I mentioned before, they did have to get rid of one dog for not being too trustworthy around kids, but Dan was the family pet up until he died.

Do this Mike, Google "pit bulls are wonderful dogs" and read up by many who own them. They truly are great dogs who are getting a bad rap and are targeted for abuse.
 
Dora, I can see your point, but did you look at the link I provided above? Here again,

2008 U.S. Dog Bite Fatalities - DogsBite.org

This isn't "the media". This is data from the Center for Disease Control (CDC). I'm not sure how this agency fits in with dog bites, but they are an official government department that tracks occurrences.

I understand what you're saying about the image a certain dog can have. I remember when I first saw "The Omen" back in the day, and I didn't want to go near a doberman for a long time! But that was a movie. This is data.
 
Well, Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have a very low aggression rate. So low it's practically nonexistent. You'd have to work pretty hard to find a vicious one. And Cavaliers are "girly" dogs so they're generally loved on. I guess that's why they just aren't naturally aggressive.

Whereas, rotties and pitties are naturally a "man's dog" so they will be more likely to be trained to be mean. It all depends on the owner.

Yes there are plenty of dogs who are just born mean but I still say owners are almost always at fault.
 
I do believe that it's nature over nuture when it comes to dog breeds and aggressiveness. Many pit bulls, and pit bull mixes can be perfectly friendly for a long time, and suddenly become aggressive under the right circumstances.

We owned a lab/pit bull mix for ten years. She was very affectionate and non-aggressive with people, but was always - from puppyhood - aggressive with other dogs. As she got older she was much more prone to suddenly aggressiveness, especially when she was startled. Eventually, she was caught by my wife in the kitchen with a freshly roasted turkey on the floor. When the wife started to scold her, the dog quickly swung around and bit the wife twice of the hand, breaking the skin.

We went to our doctor for treatment of the bites, and was informed that in Connecticut it was mandatory to report dog bites that break the skin, and that the dog would have to be put down. In addition, the vet would have to send the dog to a state facility for rabies testing, even though she had been vaccinated.

We had already decided that the dog - who we had grown so much in love with over the years - would have to be put down, because we could not live with ourselves if we ended up being the ones who say "OMG, who would have thought this could happen? She's always been so loving."

It broke my heart to take that dog to the vet for the final visit. The vet nearly cried for what she had to do, and the dog looked so pleadingly with me I couldn't stand it.

We've had now had a pure-bred yellow lab for five years, and what a different animal. Great with people, AND other dogs, and shows not the least bit of aggressiveness.
 
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