new age version of the rapture

[freeway]

Presumably you have heard of the Last Supper?

Yes..:D

 

[Stormcrow]

when did Jesus confirm a covenant with anybody or any group for a period of seven years?

I'll take a shot at this.

{16} "Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever."'" {17} In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David. 2 Samuel 7:16-17 (NASB)
​

God promised David through the prophet Nathan that David's "kingdom and throne" would be "established forever."

That's a promise. That's the covenant you're about to see God keep in ALL of the following verses, arranged in order as they appear in the Old and New Testaments:

{6}For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. {7} There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. Isaiah 9:6-7 (NASB)
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{1} "Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. {2} "He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. {3} "A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. Isaiah 42:1-3 (NASB)
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{6} "I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, {7} To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. {8} "I am the LORD, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images. {9} "Behold, the former things have come to pass, Now I declare new things; Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you." Isaiah 42:6-9 (NASB)
​

{1} The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; Isaiah 61:1 (NASB)
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{26} Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth, {27} to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the descendants of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. Luke 1:26-27 (NASB)
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{31} "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus. {32} "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; {33} and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end." Luke 1:31-33 (NASB)
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{21} Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus was also baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, {22} and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." Luke 3:21-22 (NASB)
​

{16} And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. {17} And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written, {18} "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, {19} TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." {20} And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him. {21} And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." Luke 4:14-21 (NASB)

​

Christ's very coming to earth as the begotten Son of God confirmed God's promise that His "Anointed One" (Christ, Messiah), the Son of David, would rule on David's throne forever.

The Jews were expecting a physical king to sit on a physical throne in Jerusalem from which Messiah would rule: a "deliverer" who would save them from the Romans.

But that was never the plan. God had a much wider view of the goal than they. The kingdom over which Christ would rule would not be of this earth, and He confirmed it here:

{26} While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." {27} And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; {28} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. {29} "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." Matthew 26:26-29 (NASB)
​

The Last Supper came three-and-a-half years after Christ had spoken these words to them:

"Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
​

And what happened shortly after?

{22} Pilate *said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?" They all *said, "Crucify Him!" {23} And he said, "Why, what evil has He done?" But they kept shouting all the more, saying, "Crucify Him!" {24} When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." {25}And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" {26} Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified. Matthew 27:22-26 (NASB)
​

Christ's death and burial happened in the middle of Daniel's 70th week:

{27} Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. Daniel 9:27a (NKJV)

​

The covenant of David - confirmed with Christ's earthly ministry - was fulfilled in the middle of this 70th week with the death of Christ that forever put an end to the need for the atoning sacrifices of the Mosaic Covenant. His sacrificial and substitutionary death forever placed Christ on David's throne, seated at the "right hand of the Father."

It was a covenant "confirmed with many" (Dan. 9:27a) that both established Christ's kingdom forever - a kingdom NOT of this world - and sealed with His own blood our redemption: "poured out for many." (Matt. 26:28)

The covenant itself is an eternal covenant "confirmed with many" for one week but fulfilled in the midst of it! That's how Daniel 9:27 really reads.

For what it's worth.

 

[Stormcrow]

One more thing: the promise to David and it's fulfillment in Christ's atoning work is so fundamental to our faith, that it's proper understanding cannot be overstated.

The interpretation that places Christ in the context of Daniel 9:24-27 is so important, that failing to understand it in these terms and - instead - changes the meaning to reflect some "end-time 'Antichrist'" that threatens the entire world with destruction is absurd. That's NOT the way the early church saw it, nor great minds like Matthew Henry.

For further information on this, I found an excellent PDF file (NOT written by me), here:

http://www.christiangiftandbible.com/files/quizzes/daniel_9_prophecy.pdf

It explains the fulfillment of these prophecies in Christ in far better detail than I can here.

Peace. Out.

 

[Stormcrow]

Stormcrow, Well I did it one more time, I re-read your "theory"

Good. Hope you got something positive out of it.

Your hole theory is a very sad atemp to push a doctrine form Satan himself.. to make people think that there is no tribulation "7" years spoken by Daniel. Further more you quote Daniel 9:27 has your hole base for your theory. The "he" which you try to past off as Jesus, Sorry but it is the Prince of the people who is to come, Antichrist, Satan, dragon, Serpent, Beast.. pick a name...

Guess not. Epic fail on the "something positive" thing. :shocked!

As to the rest, you can read my replies (in this thread) here and here.

(Perhaps you would like to tell Paul and the other apostles they were pushing a "doctrine of Satan." )

I know this whole "Christ as the fulfillment of these prophecies in Daniel 9" thing is somehow not as scary or "ear-tickling" as that whole "SATAN IS COMING PREPARE FOR THE END OF THE WORLD" thing, but trust Him: it's both true and far more important.

 

[Stormcrow]

This statement:

Your hole theory is a very sad atemp to push a doctrine form Satan himself

Belies the sincerity of this statement:

But I'm still puzzled and hoping you can enlighten me

How can I enlighten anyone who's already decided I'm pushing a "doctrine of Satan."

Get back to me when you're interested in a mature discussion and not simply interested in impugning my motives and character.

Thanks.

 

[Stormcrow]

Serious questions for all who defend this idea of a "7 year tribulation" that sees the church taken out of the world beforehand:

What is it about this idea of billions of people dying under God's wrath - believing you will be spared ANY of the catastrophe - makes your faith stronger? Makes you feel better? Lets you know God cares for the lost and sent His Son to save them?

Some of you remind me of this:

{10} When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. Jonah 3:10 (NASB)

{1} But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. Jonah 4:1 (NASB)

Jonah wanted to see God's wrath fall on Nineveh. When it didn't, he became angry and bitter.

I suspect there are some here who will feel bitter at being cheated out of seeing God destroy the wicked if their view of "tribulation" is proven wrong.

That only suggests to me they really don't know or understand God's love.

For what it's worth.

 

[jasoncran]

Serious questions for all who defend this idea of a "7 year tribulation" that sees the church taken out of the world beforehand:

What is it about this idea of billions of people dying under God's wrath - believing you will be spared ANY of the catastrophe - makes your faith stronger? Makes you feel better? Lets you know God cares for the lost and sent His Son to save them?

Some of you remind me of this:

{10} When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. Jonah 3:10 (NASB)

{1} But it greatly displeased Jonah and he became angry. Jonah 4:1 (NASB)

Jonah wanted to see God's wrath fall on Nineveh. When it didn't, he became angry and bitter.

I suspect there are some here who will feel bitter at being cheated out of seeing God destroy the wicked if their view of "tribulation" is proven wrong.

That only suggests to me they really don't know or understand God's love.

For what it's worth.

God forbid,i take no joy in what any sinner must face when the wrath of god comes.

 

[hisbeloved]

Try Comby's Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow.

I have read parts of that

 

[hisbeloved]

Speaking only for myself not in 'this camp' or 'that camp.'

How long was the 'earthly ' ministry of Christ? 3 1/2 years

how long was the siege of Jerusalem? 3 1/2 years

Jesus told the guys THIS generation etc the siege was 70 AD at the conclusion of THAT generation.

in my pea brain Jesus/God let the generation continue as they had ... He also damnned the generation that murdered Him.

The Romans did the killing at the request of the Jewish leaders

At the same time He GAVE His life for our sin...

Thanks for getting back to me Reba, I see what you are saying, but that still does not show that Jesus made a seven year covenant with anybody, it seems if there was a seven year convenant made by Jesus it would be clear and stated in the NT

 

[Stormcrow]

God forbid,i take no joy in what any sinner must face when the wrath of god comes.

Not directed specifically to you, Jason.

 

[Stormcrow]

Also in In Daniel 11:36 (KJV)

You do realize that Daniel 11:36-45 was fulfilled in the person of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, don't you?

Try reading up on him and the events that led to the creation of the Jewish celebration "Hanukkah."

Thanks.
http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Daniel 11.36

 

[warhorse]

Thanks for getting back to me Reba, I see what you are saying, but that still does not show that Jesus many a seven year covenant with many, it seems if there was a seven year convenant made by Jesus it would be clear and stated in the NT

Jesus did not make a 7 year covenant. nor did he need to to complete this scripture, he confimed the covenant that was given by blood. remember when the old covenant was given God made a covenant with man and moses had to provide a blood sacrifice that the peaple all had to pass through to be a part of the covenant. That sacrifice was a symbol of the perfect sacrifice that God would provide to confirm the covenant. Jesus was that perfect sacrifice that all men must pass through to be a part of the new covenant. Thats why the veil was torn and the daily sacrifice was ended.

 

[Stormcrow]

but that still does not show that Jesus many a seven year covenant with many, it seems if there was a seven year convenant made by Jesus it would be clear and stated in the NT

Jesus didn't make the covenant during His earthly ministry: He confirmed the covenant God had made to David about Him.

There is no covenant "made" with anyone in Daniel 9:27: it is an eternal covenant that's confirmed.

Here's how God's Word translation phrases it:

{27} He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods. In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings. This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until {those time periods} come to an end. It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy {the city}.†Daniel 9:27 (GW)

And now, to the other end of the spectrum:

{27} And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.' Daniel 9:27 (YLT)

That's Young's Literal Translation. Some translations put it this way:

{27} And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

See that word "for" in the in the second half of the verse? The word "for" isn't used only to indicate purpose or goal. It also means "because of."

Now, look at this verse again with the word "for" changed to "because of":

{27} And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and because of the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

Christ confirms the covenant God made, is crucified in the middle of the 70th week, and returns in judgement on Jerusalem using the people (Romans) of the prince (Titus) to destroy the city and sanctuary because of its abominations.

That - I believe - is what Daniel 9:24-27 is saying.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Stormcrow]

BTW, while some may say Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant and while I might point out that His first coming fulfilled the Davidic Covenant, the bottom line is Christ fulfills all the promises of God made to us both to save us and to rule on David's throne.

Please don't let the different covenants God made confuse the fact that Christ fulfills them all.

 

[warhorse]

BTW, while some may say Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Covenant and while I might point out that His first coming fulfilled the Davidic Covenant, the bottom line is Christ fulfills all the promises of God made to us both to save us and to rule on David's throne.

Please don't let the different covenants God made confuse the fact that Christ fulfills them all.

Here is were i may part ways with you. Can you show me scripture to support the literal fullfillment of the davidic covenant at that time.

 

[Stormcrow]

Here is were i may part ways with you. Can you show me scripture to support the literal fullfillment of the davidic covenant at that time.

{64} Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

{55} But being full of the Holy Spirit, he [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)

{18} I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, {19} and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might {20} which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, {21} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. {22} And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, {23} which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:18-23 (NASB)

Today Jesus sits on the throne of the Kingdom God gave Him: a kingdom He said, "is not of this world", a kingdom that was taken from Israel (Matthew 21) and given to a people that would produce its fruit (us) so that through us, Israel might be moved to jealousy and return to Him.

(Given the way some people treat others on this board, though, I don't see anything that would make anyone jealous of Christianity. )

Israel can have David's seed back as their king any time. They just need to recognize who that king is.

{39} "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:39 (NASB)

IMHO.

 

[warhorse]

{64} Jesus *said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matthew 26:64 (NASB)

{55} But being full of the Holy Spirit, he [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)

{18} I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, {19} and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might {20} which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, {21} far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. {22} And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, {23} which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. Ephesians 1:18-23 (NASB)

Today Jesus sits on the throne of the Kingdom God gave Him: a kingdom He said, "is not of this world", a kingdom that was taken from Israel (Matthew 21) and given to a people that would produce its fruit (us) so that through us, Israel might be moved to jealousy and return to Him.

(Given the way some people treat others on this board, though, I don't see anything that would make anyone jealous of Christianity. )

Israel can have David's seed back as their king any time. They just need to recognize who that king is.

{39} "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'" Matthew 23:39 (NASB)

IMHO.

Yep thats kinda what i expected. This is were i would have to differ with you. the scripture hear clearly shows Jesus as a risen savour, but he is at the right hand of God, not yet litterally assuming his own throne. From my studies i still expect a literal return in the clouds as described by Danial 7 , math 24, mark 13, and luke 21.

 

[Hitch]

Yep thats kinda what i expected. This is were i would have to differ with you. the scripture hear clearly shows Jesus as a risen savour, but he is at the right hand of God, not yet litterally assuming his own throne. From my studies i still expect a literal return in the clouds as described by Danial 7 , math 24, mark 13, and luke 21.

What place in the universe is more glorious than the Right Hand of God ?

What other throne was typified for the Lord's throne in Israel?

 

[Stormcrow]

far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. {22} And He put all things in subjection under His feet,

but he is at the right hand of God, not yet litterally assuming his own throne.

What would He have to gain by His own throne that He doesn't already have?

All things have already been put in subjection under His feet, meaning there is none more powerful than He.

Anyway, you asked for a verse. I gave you three.

 

[warhorse]

What would He have to gain by His own throne that He doesn't already have?

All things have already been put in subjection under His feet, meaning there is none more powerful than He.

Anyway, you asked for a verse. I gave you three.

Much of what Jesus did, did not gain him anything. Its about fullfilling prophacy. Do you understand the reason for the nails. in that time when a contract or agreement was fullfilled they would take it and nail it to a post. Jesus was the fullfillment of the mosaic covenant so they nailed him to the post as prophacy indicated they would. God has taken great care to fulfill thousands of prophacies to great detail that were not needed for his own purposes. Seems unlikekly to me that he would choose to break that habit after going to such great detail throughout hystory. Thank you for answering my Question.