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New and Old Covenant Contrasted (Jeremiah 31)

Cyberseeker said:
Hi Mondar, You make some interesting points. By way of response perhaps I should first of all say that I am of the 'New Covenant Theology' school - neither dispensational nor old covt. theology......................... So I am inclined to agree with some of your points.
Cyber

Thanks for responding. I was interested in your opinion. As for my position, I dont have the foggiest idea what tag to use. I am aware that about 80% of what I said is a strange mixture of borrowed from opposite points of view. This means I could be quite inconsistent, especially since I am not a professional scholar. The 80% borrowed come from people like Ladd (historic premill), Saucy (progressive dispy), MacArther (he calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist"). I have read less of Hoekema (Amil), Ryrie and Chafer (dispy). The 20% not borrowed is the part that is probably inconsistent and wrong. :amen

I have heard of "New Covenant Theology," but never read it. Who writes from that perspective?
 
The passage in Jeremiah that God would write His law in the hearts and minds of both houses of Israel is a New Testament declaration in the Book of Hebrews also. The foundation of Christian Doctrine does not throw God's laws away.

There's a whole lot of direct proof for that, even today, for God's laws directly from The Bible is what the law systems of the western Christian nations were established under. Not the Old Covenant, which deceivers try to bag all of God's law under.

Laws against incest still exists in most western Christian nations today. That wasn't established by scientists and biologists. It was established by the early western nation founders who knew what God's laws are actually about, and got them from His Word. The old U.S. "Blue laws" were even offshoots from holding Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. One would be amazed at the laws that used to be on the books in most states in the U.S. involving no work on Sundays. If you wonder why Wal-Mart is only open a shorter portion of the day on Sundays, that's a remnant of that old tradition in the United States. (No, I'm not Jewish either).
 
mondar, about your ideas on the Jeremiah 31 Scripture...

If you mean there's more to the original prophecy than just what is quoted as fulfilled in Hebrews, you're right. Compare that method of prophecy with this one...

Isa 40:2-5
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD's hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
(KJV)

Note all the events to occur in the original above, and then note how only SOME of that was quoted about John the Baptist in the New Testament version...

Matt 3:2-3
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight.
(KJV)

There's a difference with the idea of preparing the way of The Lord and making His paths straight. Other Scripture like in Ezekiel, Zechariah, etc., reveal when Christ's Kingdom does literally come on earth with His return, there will be literal earth changes to go with it. The end of Isaiah 19 speaks of a highway linking the areas of saved Egypt, Israel, and Assyria. Literal 'paths' are meant too, not just moral paths.

Likewise with the Jer.31 example, that involves the future when both the house of Judah and the house of Israel are put back together as 'one stick' before The LORD, with David as their prince, and Christ as their KING (Ezek.37). That part has yet to be fulfilled today. This is showing the Jer.31 prophecy, and the Isaiah 40 prophecy are to be fulfilled in stages. The New Testament examples only quoted a portion that was fufilled.

In Luke 4 with our Lord Jesus reading from Isaiah 61 we find the same idea. Our Lord closed the Book without reading all of Isaiah 61:2, showing only that portion He read was then fulfilled.

THIS is why it is so important to go back to the Old Testament and actually study the original Scripture with a New Testament quote. There is MUCH written in the Old Testament Books of the prophets that has never been fulfilled to this day.
 
veteran said:
The passage in Jeremiah that God would write His law in the hearts and minds of both houses of Israel is a New Testament declaration in the Book of Hebrews also. The foundation of Christian Doctrine does not throw God's laws away.

There's a whole lot of direct proof for that, even today, for God's laws directly from The Bible is what the law systems of the western Christian nations were established under. Not the Old Covenant, which deceivers try to bag all of God's law under.

Laws against incest still exists in most western Christian nations today. That wasn't established by scientists and biologists. It was established by the early western nation founders who knew what God's laws are actually about, and got them from His Word. The old U.S. "Blue laws" were even offshoots from holding Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. One would be amazed at the laws that used to be on the books in most states in the U.S. involving no work on Sundays. If you wonder why Wal-Mart is only open a shorter portion of the day on Sundays, that's a remnant of that old tradition in the United States. (No, I'm not Jewish either).

That is because within and contained in the law of faith/the great two, love is included. Love does no harm to his/her neighbor. They really are the only two we need, as written in the new covenant. When you try to put the whole law into them, you are adding back in what Jesus fulfilled through a new covenant. Circumcision, for example..it was a shadow of the true spiritual type. That of the heart. Many of the old covenant laws were not based on a moral issue, but on a shadow and a reality fulfillment. The sabbath is another example of shadow/reality. The day only pointed to HIM. Heb. 4 The stone law, is called the 'letter', and it can only condemn, because that was it's purpose..it was not written for those whom are in Christ, as it states in the timothy, it was written to condemn us so that we would come to Christ. A schoolmaster to lead us somewhere. When you have arrived at the destination, you no longer need the schoolmaster and you no longer are under that which only had a purpose of condemnation. It is established, even now though, for those whom are not in Christ. God is still using it to bring about a knowledge of sin to a non believer. Sin for a christian, however is shown on a larger scale...we need the spirit to know not to hate. The world needs a rule of do not kill...because they are spiritually discerned.

Live and walk by the law of faith...it is the way of the Lord...bringing back in a law of wrath/condemnation is not what we should be upholding as to what christians are under.
 
veteran said:
The passage in Jeremiah that God would write His law in the hearts and minds of both houses of Israel is a New Testament declaration in the Book of Hebrews also. The foundation of Christian Doctrine does not throw God's laws away.
Well, this requires some nuancing. The New Testament is clear - the Law of Moses, as a prescriptive code for morality, ceremony, etc has been retired. Paul says this so clearly, and at so many places, that one simply cannot avoid it. Jesus, also, clearly overturns the Law of Moses when He effectively declares that all foods are clean in Mark 7 - in direct contradiction to the Law of Moses.

But, of course, and as Jesus tells us in Matthew 24, the "spirit" of the Law lives on - love God and love neighbour. And Paul tells us that the retirement of the Law is accompanied by the gift of the Spirit. So, it is in this sense - the underlying "spirit" sense - that the Law of Moses lives on.

But it certainly does not live on in the sense of being the informing source for how we are to live. The Spirit has that role now. In other words, we should be looking to the Spirit, not to the "rules" of the Law of Moses for guidance as to how to act in the world.
 
Drew said:
veteran said:
The passage in Jeremiah that God would write His law in the hearts and minds of both houses of Israel is a New Testament declaration in the Book of Hebrews also. The foundation of Christian Doctrine does not throw God's laws away.
Well, this requires some nuancing. The New Testament is clear - the Law of Moses, as a prescriptive code for morality, ceremony, etc has been retired. Paul says this so clearly, and at so many places, that one simply cannot avoid it. Jesus, also, clearly overturns the Law of Moses when He effectively declares that all foods are clean in Mark 7 - in direct contradiction to the Law of Moses.

But, of course, and as Jesus tells us in Matthew 24, the "spirit" of the Law lives on - love God and love neighbour. And Paul tells us that the retirement of the Law is accompanied by the gift of the Spirit. So, it is in this sense - the underlying "spirit" sense - that the Law of Moses lives on.

But it certainly does not live on in the sense of being the informing source for how we are to live. The Spirit has that role now. In other words, we should be looking to the Spirit, not to the "rules" of the Law of Moses for guidance as to how to act in the world.

Yes, especially since the old 'form' only had one purpose, which was to condemn and work it's wrath, through condemning every man a sinner.

The letter kills:

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

The old covenant was a covenant unto death. That is why it did not save anyone. That is why even from the beginning, God made a promise to Abraham to fulfill a NEW one, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

The old covenant is called 'bondage', and is by allegory, the covenant that all the unsaved are considered to be 'in', until they come to Christ, by a new and living and BETTER way...and all enter into it, by faith.

We are commanded to toss out that old that can only work, to embrace the free woman, whom is the mother of us all.

Two sons...two ways..one unto death, one unto life.

Gal 4:1 Now I say, [That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;


Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.


Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:


Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,


Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


Gal 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


Gal 4:8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


Gal 4:12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I [am]; for I [am] as ye [are]: ye have not injured me at all.


Gal 4:13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.


Gal 4:14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, [even] as Christ Jesus.


Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if [it had been] possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.


Gal 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


Gal 4:17 They zealously affect you, [but] not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.


Gal 4:18 But [it is] good to be zealously affected always in [a] good [thing], and not only when I am present with you.


Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


Gal 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.


Gal 4:21 ¶ Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.


Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

THE STONE LAW!

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.


Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.


Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.


Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



You cannot live by the stone law and be of the FREE woman!
 
mondar said:
... 80% of what I said is a strange mixture of ... people like Ladd (historic premill), Saucy (progressive dispy), MacArther (he calls himself a "leaky dispensationalist").
You cant go far wrong reading those fellas. :yes George Ladd was a great favorite of mine.

mondar said:
I have heard of "New Covenant Theology," but never read it. Who writes from that perspective?
Usually Baptist Calvinists but we wont hold that against them. lol :halo There is a lot of 'cross-pollination' going on in eschatology today and that's not a bad thing IMHO.

Cyber
 
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