New possible enlightenment on the "eternality" of the soul

[cyberjosh]

I was having a conversation with someone at my school the other day about the soul and spirit and what makes a man different from an animal (he used a monkey as an example), and I mentioned that according to the Old Testament both men and animals have souls, but that the distinction of man from animal lies in the spirit (the spiritual component) of man. Now first of all he accused me of being inconsistant with my definition of soul when I said that an animal's soul when it dies is freed of the body and goes down into the earth (where, I have no idea - most likely annihilated, based on Ecclesiastes 3:21) but a man's soul (depending on his deeds) goes either to heaven or hell, but he said that if both have a soul then both the soul of man and soul of animals should be subject to the same effects/consequences after dying. Now in Ecclesiastes 3:21 it actually uses the word 'spirit' for both man and animal, which I do find confusing a bit and we see the interchangablility of soul and spirit sometimes. Nonetheless I still believe that the spirit is the eternal component, and the soul is perhaps the "temporal" component, of which man's soul - like the animal's soul - can be annihiliated. Now when pressed about why a man's soul and an animal's soul should do different things upon death I conceded the point that if God wanted to he could (for example) bring an animals soul to heaven, since God can do anything, although I said that can and will are two very different things.

But now comes in my musing, which I since have not thorougly tested by rereading the many passages that mention soul & spirit, so perhaps it is not perfect, but it struck me as interesting. While having this conversation it struck me that perhaps on reason why there may be such a difference in the effects/consequences between the common substance of man & animal (which I call a soul, in some cases called a spirit, I think context dictates the meaning in many circumstances however) is in the fact that it is assumed that man will be ressurected in the end time, whether evil or good, we will get back not only our body but our soul will be preserved as well. The same cannot be said for animals, however the commonality between the two is that were it not for ressurection we truly would expire just like animals and our souls would perish. So although, according to my understanding the soul, that the soul inherently is temporal nonetheless man's soul in the Bible is sometimes spoken of as eternal in light of the fact of future ressurection and preservation of our soul, thus made to live forever without dying. For some reason this had never occured to me before.

However I do admit my continued confusion over the interchangable use of soul and spirit in places like Ecclesiastes where they seem (at least from a New Testament perspective) to be quite distinct. This is why I tend to take the reference to 'spirit' in Ecclesiastes 3:21 as refering to what is in essense my understanding of the soul. But however this might be special pleading. I don't know, what are your thoughts on these issues? Both on the eternality of the soul based on ressurection, and the possible similarities/distinctions between soul and spirit.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

Josh – briefly my position.

The ‘eternality’ distinction between man and animal is that only man may be born of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives life (eternal). This why I believe that any man not born of the Spirit will perish - as scripture says.

To me, since it is the Spirit that gives birth to our spirit, then we are dead without it. The soul counts for nothing since it is of the flesh (body).

 

[Paidion]

Here is some old enlightenment on the mortality of the soul (or "self" as it is used in the New Testament".)

1 Timothy 6:16 [God] alone has immortality...

 

[Bick]

Wow! You've done some thinking and have a lot of questions.

To fully understand "soul" and "spirit" takes a lot of study, looking up all the passages where they are used, and studying the contexts as well.

Commentaries might be of some help, but, personally, I have found them to be biased by their own interpretation.

Let's start with "soul." SOUL is "nephesh" in Hebrew; and "psuche" in Greek.

It is true that "soul" is not exclusive to mankind. There are many passages that refer to creatures of the sea, to land animals, and to flying creatures as living souls, and having a soul.
Ref: Gen.1:20, 21, 24; 2:19, 9:3, 4, 8-10, 12; Lev.11:10, 46; 24:17; Job 12:10; Prov. 12:10; Ezek. 47:9; Rev. 8:9; 16:3.

SOUL AS RELATED TO HUMAN BEINGS:

Gen.2:7 "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." AV.
NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul (being--NIV, RSV) when the breath of the spirit of life was breathed into his nostrils.

There are many passages that speak of the soul being satisfied after eating or drinking, and many other feelings or memories related to the senses.

SOUL could be said to be the consciousness, the feelings, the desires, produced by the breath of life vitalizing the body. It will be seen that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.`

Thus, both man and beast are termed living souls because they are living creatures which, through sentient faculties, are capable of experience.

In the Bible, just as today, many times man is called a "soul."

Gen. 12:5 "Abram took his wife....and the souls they had gotten in Haran."
46:26 "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt."
Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there added...
about three thousand souls."
2:43 "And fear came upon every soul..."
See also Acts 7:14, 27:37; Rom. 2:9, 13:1; 1 Cor. 15:45; James 5:20; 1 Pet. 3:20; 2 Pet. 2:14 etc.

Many times the soul is said to die or be dead:

Lev. 24:17 "And he that killeth any man (soul) shall surely be put to death."

Num. 23:10 "Let me (my soul) die the death of the righteous."

While there are many others, a familiar one is Ezek. 18:4, "The soul that sinneth it shal die."

A man living is a 'living soul'; a man dead is a 'dead soul.' This is, of course, against traditional theology, but what do the Scriptures say?

Gen. 3:19 "In the sweat of thy face shall thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground: for out of it was thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." AV.
NOTICE: It says "..unto dust shalt THOU return."
It is true that we thnk of man being where his body is. Certainly the body returns to dust. As for his soul (his senses, memory, personality etc), they simply disappear when he dies. Scriptures would say, his soul goes to the unseen (sheol-Hebrew; Hades-Greek). Most often, these two words are translated "grave" or "the grave" depending on the context.

Look at this scripture in particular, how the KJV translation has confused so many with the compilers interpretation:

Peter on the day of Pentecost quotes from Psalms 16:10 in Acts 2:27: "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hades-Gk), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." KJV.

I heard a TV Evangelist build a whole sermon on how Jesus went to "hell" and contended with the Devil over the souls of men. How wrong could anything be!

I believe the NIV has it more correctly: "...because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay."

Admittedly, there are some confusing scriptures in the NT. I will discuss them later.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks for the thoughtful response Bick. Yes I agree and am aware of the passages that speak of the soul dying, thus why I said that the soul is inherently temporal - it "perishes" with the body. And it actually is this traditional idea of perishing that brings to light my theory the clearest I think, since perishing is generally considered something that happens to the wicked only while the righteous will be preserved (take John 3:16 for such terminology), and we also see OT terminology off the wicked being "cut off" from his people & "from among the living", yet the fact is by natural process all men whether righteous or wicked will perish (as the soul would upon death) and all who die are automatically cut off from among the living (from a physical standpoint) - thus the punishment for the wicked would appear to apply to all men regardless, in such a context.

Therefore since it is true in the latter sense that all men do indeed perish, then the sense of perishing that is applied exclusively for the wicked (and there is indeed such a sense - John 3:16) must refer to something slightly different. But it suddenly starts to make more sense if God had been speaking all along of the "preservation" and of "those among the living" from a resurrection stand-point, because then a distinction can be drawn between those who "live" and those who "perish" (whether or not the soul will ultimately be preserved and given everlasting life). Now according to Daniel both the wicked and righteous will actually be resurrected, but some then only to immediately (after the judgment) experience the "second death" and others to inherit eternal life. Thus the distinction (and promise to believers) of still being "among the living" even once one has died makes sense if it is viewed as being stated in anticipation of resurrection.

For secular scholars & skeptics of the Bible, inevitably rejecting the idea of the afterlife, they must view all the Scriptures pertaining to "being cut off from one's people" as only a physical event and thus reducing all scriptures that deal with life and death to only a desperate plea to God to never physically die. But this view has no theological depth and cannot explain the variety of contexts in which the life/death metaphor is used, or such passages like "you will not leave my soul in Sheol". How can the soul survive unless God preserves it? And why would God preserve it unless he was going to resurrect it?! God after all does not preserve the soul of animals. And to that end it is possible that the occasional references to those wicked in hell (sheol/gehenna) also being alive, is that they too are - temporarily - being preserved until the judgment, at which time God will determine the eternal state of men's souls.

So how does that strike you, in so far as I have described it?

P.S. I would still like to see you give a future post on the distinctions between soul & spirit sometime if you are up to it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[mutzrein]

I'm wondering of you guys give any credence, in all of this, to the reason that Jesus came. He came that man might have eternal life. So what do you think was the difference in the eternality of man before and after Christ. Relevant? And what of the dividing asunder of soul and spirit by the word of God. Any thoughts?

 

[cyberjosh]

I'm wondering of you guys give any credence, in all of this, to the reason that Jesus came. He came that man might have eternal life. So what do you think was the difference in the eternality of man before and after Christ. Relevant? And what of the dividing asunder of soul and spirit by the word of God. Any thoughts?

I certainly have tried to keep in mind Jesus' purpose for coming, and it is what I refer to when I said in my last post that a soul may be given eternal/everlasting life (only through Christ - and it is a gift, not an inherent attribute or right - that is my theory anyway; I reserve inherent eternalness to the spirit - for God himself is a Spirit). And Jesus was especially interested in saving, not just men's body or spirit, but their soul as well. This concern can be seen in Jesus' warning, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). Also I think from a theological stand point "before Christ" is not as relevant as considering a hypothetical "without Christ", since Christ's sacrifice was reckoned as completed since the foundation of the world already (thus "before" might not be relevant), therefore even Old Testament promises of death or life were already predicated on God's ultimate plan of salvation through Christ, thus the ultimate sense should not change between the Old and New testaments but rather be consistent.

However without Christ certainly no soul could be preserved or have hope of eternal life for, "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together" (Colossians 1:16-17). Outside of Christ, the Vine, no person can live. That is why I am saying that I think that naturally apart from Christ and God that the soul would inevitably perish but that in the cases that we actually do see the eternality of man's soul assumed, that it is done only within the framework of the assumption of eternal life through resurrection graciously afforded men's souls through the salvation that is through Jesus Christ, for "if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him" (Romans 6:8). That was the nature of my musing.

As for the division of soul and spirit (as well as joint & marrow, etc. - Hebrews 4:12) by the word of God, it is indeed that verse that reinforces my believe that soul & spirit are different/distinct, and that man is a tri-part being. I operated under that assumption since my very first post, although while I firmly asserted their differences I also admitted by confusion over the occasional interchangablility of the two words in the Old Testament while is seems so much more clearly delineated in the New Testament. That was the original issue I had brought up about and had posed a question for anyone to suggest an answer for. Feel free to offer your own suggestions on that, because I'm still unsure as to the resolution of that question.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bick]

by mutzrein on Tue May 19, 2009 12:35 am

I'm wondering of you guys give any credence, in all of this, to the reason that Jesus came. He came that man might have eternal life. So what do you think was the difference in the eternality of man before and after Christ. Relevant? And what of the dividing asunder of soul and spirit by the word of God. Any thoughts?

MY COMMENTS TO MUTZEREIN:

Good question; why did Jesus come? Actually there are a number of reasons given in the Scriptures, some of which are given below:

FIRST: to save his people and the world from their sins.
Matthew 1:21 tells us "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name of Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins;" The angel speaking to Joseph about Mary. NIV, typ.
Jesus declares in Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Also Jesus says in John 12:47 "...I did not come to judge the world, but to save it."
We read in 1 Tim.1:15 "..Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

SECOND: He came (was manifested) "that he might destroy the works of the devil", 1 John 3:8

THIRD: As the Good Shepherd, He came to bring full, abundant life:
John 10:10 "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

FOURTH: He came to testify to the truth
John 18:37 "...You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth."

NEW QUESTION: What is the difference in the eternality of man before and after Christ?

My answer: there is no "eternality of man" before or after the cross. Mankind is mortal.

All mankind up to now have died: Their body returned to dust, their soul (their senses, memory, experience, personality etc, disappeared---went to the unseen: sheol-Heb, hades-Gk.), their spirit (life force connected with "breath", returned to God who gave it.

The cure for death is resurrection.

You quoted from Hebrews 4:12. It is difficult to exactly understand. I understand the soul has to do with the physical senses. It is usually confused with the spirit. The Living Word is to be man's judge.
I go along with the Companion Bible with says, "In the last day" man will be criticized (judged) by the Living Word. "Dividing assunder of soul and spirit" means not only differentiating between that which is begotten of the flesh and that which is begotten of the Spirit (John 3:6) in the individual; but also between the natural (Gk. psuchikos..soulish) man and the spiritual (Gk. pneumatikos) man.
1 Cor. 2:13-15.

All for now. God bless, Bick

 

[Joe67]

Here is a testimony of the Spirit of Jesus whereby He has spoken to my heart and mind in this question.

2 Cor 4:16-17
16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; ASV

Think upon the promises in the "wherefore" before digesting the following testimony.

Joe

 

[cyberjosh]

NEW QUESTION: What is the difference in the eternality of man before and after Christ?

My answer: there is no "eternality of man" before or after the cross. Mankind is mortal.

All mankind up to now have died: Their body returned to dust, their soul (their senses, memory, experience, personality etc, disappeared---went to the unseen: sheol-Heb, hades-Gk.), their spirit (life force connected with "breath", returned to God who gave it.

The cure for death is resurrection.

I concur. I think you have put it more succinctly than I. I tried addresing this already assuming that ressurection was in God's ultimate plan, but I probably should have begun at this basic starting block.

~Josh

 

[Bick]

Here is a testimony of the Spirit of Jesus whereby He has spoken to my heart and mind in this question.

2 Cor 4:16-17
16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying, yet our inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is for the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory; ASV

Think upon the promises in the "wherefore" before digesting the following testimony.

Joe

MY COMMENTS: Yes, Joe, I too am encouraged from Paul's words, that even with all the persecutions he and his fellow apostles have been through, they faint not and though their outward man is perishing, their inward man is being renewed day by day.
And so all in the church/body may have light affliction (whether physical, emotional, or spiritual), yet, in our lifetime it seems but a moment; yet we know the weight of glory which we will receive will far exceed any suffering for Christ in this life.

I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence.

God bless.

 

[Bick]

Hi cybershark. You know, I think a major cause of the confusion concerning this subject, is the idea, the preaching-teaching of "the saving of the soul", as if it were a separate entity that exists in man,
an entitiy that has a body and all its senses, just like the whole man: for in messages and sermons we here that "the souls of the departed faithful are in the presence of God and Christ, praising and worshipping them. Too, don't we often hear that "the souls of our departed loved ones can look down and see us"?

It is the whole man who is a sinner and needs saved. Man is not just a body; he is a body with all its physical senses. "Soul" could be said to be the seat of man's emotions and feelings.

Let's look at some controversial scriptures:

Matt. 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (geenna-Greek)." NIV, parentheses mine.

Jesus' ministry was to his own people, Israel, preaching, "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Israel's hope for centuries has been the promised Messianic Kingdom.
He spoke often of faith and good works to be worthy of the kingdom.

Geenna, was a site below the south wall of Jerusalem, a valley where the city offal and trash was dumped and kept burning to help purify the air and burn up the garbage and bodies thrown there.
To a Jew, the 'fires of geenna' was figurative of the judgment of God.
There are eleven accounts in the Gospels where Jesus warned his disciples and the multitudes of the "Judgment of geenna." This was a judgment handed down by the Sanhedren, the governing body of Israel, to the worst kind of law-breaker. It was considered the worst kind of sentence, for after being stoned to death, the criminal's body would be thrown into geenna, not having a descent burial, so important to a Jew. In geenna, the body would be burned and what wasn't burned was eaten up by maggots (worms).
Geenna was outside of Jerusalem, and will be again outside of the restored Jerusalem in the Millennial Kingdom on earth.

Now, back to Matt. 10:28. It is my opinion that Jesus was instructing the 12 being sent out to proclaim the 'kingdom is near', to many of the towns and cities in Israel.
If they would be killed in that time, they would be resurrected to be in the Kingdom after Messiah Jesus would return to the earth. Technically, if they were killed, their soul is killed too, but Jesus view is the kingdom to come.
Thus, upon resurrection they would have body and soul, the ability to enjoy the Kingdom with all their senses.
During the Messianic Kingdom, it will be a time of living strictly by the law as set forth in the "Sermon on the Mount." If someone was a grevious sinner during the Kingdom, Christ as the ultimate judge, could destroy both his body and soul in geenna, no longer living in the glorious Kingdom.
He would be destroyed until resurrected to be judged for all his works at the Great White Throne.

All for now.

 

[Veritas]

It may not be one of those things we can completely wrap our minds around (I know, I'm no fun)

But scripture does seem to refer to us as a unitary being, a dichotomist being (body, soul/spirit), and a trichotomist being (body, soul, spirit). Perhaps attempting to condense the scriptural evidence into any one of these views oversimplifies things.

 

[Bick]

It may not be one of those things we can completely wrap our minds around (I know, I'm no fun)

But scripture does seem to refer to us as a unitary being, a dichotomist being (body, soul/spirit), and a trichotomist being (body, soul, spirit). Perhaps attempting to condense the scriptural evidence into any one of these views oversimplifies things.

MY COMMENTS:
I know what you mean, Veritas. And I hope I haven't given the impression that understanding the makeup of man (body, soul and spirit) is a simple thing.

Man being made in the image of God, after his likness, is mind boggling.

But, do we just go along with the popular orthodoxy teaching without investigating the Scriptures?

Indeed, man is a unitary being which we learn of way back in Genesis 2:7.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (being--RSV and others), AV.

Those theologians who are of the dichotomy school, to me, haven't studied all that the Scriptures set forth on this subject, particularly in the Hebrew Scriptures.

 

[Veritas]

Oh no, Bick, I don't think you've given the impression that the make up of a man is simple at all.

I've been enjoying reading the ideas presented here. I'm still thinking about how to formulate my thoughts about this a little more fully

 

[Bick]

Hi cybershark. Let us examine some of the differences between "spirit" and "soul."

Starting with "spirit": the Hebrew word is "ruach", and the Greek word is "pneuma." The words can also mean "wind" depending on the context. As I have shown earlier, the words for "soul" are different, being "nephesh"--Heb, and "psuche"--Greek.

Obviously, it is not a simple study: The compilers of the KJV Old Testament translated the word for spirit 16 different ways.

In the New Testament of the KJV the word for spirit is translated 8 different ways.

MY opinion is, while different words may be needed according to the context, the "translators" may have caused more confusion then necessary on this subject.

The meaning of the word is deduced from its usage. The seemingly one root idea running through all the passages is INVISIBLE FORCE, ENERGY, POWER, INFLUENCE.

Man's spirit may be defined as his life force, and is related to breath. This is true of all living creatures that have the breath of life.

Gen. 6:17 "I am going to bring flood waters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that have the breath of life in it." NIV, etc
7:22 "All in whose nostrils was the breath (neshamah-Heb.) of the spirit (ruach) of life, of all that was on the dry land died."

Job 12:10 "In his hand is the life of every creature and the breath of all mankind."

Job 27:3 "All the while my breath (neshamah) is in me, and the spirit (ruach) of God is in my nostrils;.." KJV. NOTICE: breath of God and spirit of God are practically interchangable. We breathe air, the life giving spirt of God who forms our spirit within us (see Zech. 12:1).

When man dies, his breath, his life force (spirit) returns to God who gave it. (Eccl 12:7)

Job 34:14,15 "If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit and breath, all mankind would perish together and man would return to dust."

Psa. 146:3, 4 "Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men who cannot save. When their spirit (breath-KJV) departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."
Parentheses mine.

Please check this out. Here are some other passages: Job 9:18; Psa. 135:17; Eccl 3:19; Jer.10:14; Jer. 51:17

 

[Bick]

Some scriptural differences between SOUL and SPIRIT:

The spirit is related to the breath.

"..The breath of the spirit of life.." (Gen.7:22, ASV and HNV; Job 27:3, 33:4, KJV etc;).

The soul is related to the blood.

"For the soul ["life" in AV] of the flesh is in the blood." "As to the soul of all flesh, the blood thereof is all one with the soul thereof....for the soul of all flesh is in the blood thereof." (Lev. 17:11-=14; Deut. 12:20-24; Eze. 22:27).

At death the spirit returns to God.

To me, this doesn't mean that our "spirit" as a separate entity goes to God in heaven. It means that, as we expire, so our life force, our spirit, returns to God who gave it when we first breathed, for all life is a gift. (Eccl. 12:7; Job 34:10-15; Psa. 104:24-30).

At death the soul goes to sheol or hades (the unseen, grave). ("Sheol" and "Hades" translated "hell" in the AV and some other versions.)

"You will not leave My soul to Sheol, neither will you suffer thy Holy One to see corruption.." Psa.16:10,RSV
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul unto Hades." Acts 2:27, RSV.

In the NIV: "..because you will not abandon me to the grave,..." Acts 2:27.

In the Scriptures the spirit is never said to go to Sheol or Hades.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Bick. I'll read those more when I can. Just giving an update.