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[OzSpen]

I am not one doesnt believe in eternal damnation....

What do you mean by that statement? Do you or don't you believe in eternal damnation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course I know that. I'm a NT Greek teacher.

That's not the issue. Because Gehenna was a burning rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem, it was used as a picture of the final destiny of the damned, death and Hades. It is not a place of non-existence. It's a place of conscious torment according to the biblical revelation.

When the Lord affirmed that God will “destroy” both body and soul in Gehenna (Mt. 10:28), he employed the word apollumi (used about 92 times in the New Testament). It is translated by such terms as “destroy,” “perish,” “loss,” and “lost.” The term does not suggest the sense of annihilation.​

​

When the prodigal son was in the far country, he was “lost” (apololos), i.e., estranged from the blessings of his home, but he was not annihilated. Jesus affirmed that he came to save that which stands lost (apololos). The perfect tense describes a present condition which has resulted from previous activity. The Lord did not come to save folks who were in a state of non-existence!​

​

“In every instance where the word apollumi is found in the New Testament, something other than annihilation is being described” (Morey, 90).​

See also William V Crockett’s article, ‘Wrath that endures forever’ (1991).

Oz

This is very important. I know a priest that believes in annhialation. (I can't even spell the word and too lazy to look it up right now...6:55 am!).

He uses Mathew 10:28.

So, Appolumi is the verb of apololos?

 

[OzSpen]

This is very important. I know a priest that believes in annhialation. (I can't even spell the word and too lazy to look it up right now...6:55 am!).

He uses Mathew 10:28.

So, Appolumi is the verb of apololos?

wondering,

He's a priest who is dishonest with the Greek text. Here's why:

• Matt 10:28 (ESV) states: 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]'. 'Destroy' is the Greek, apollumi, meaning to be delivered up (to eternal misery) for both soul and body.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon gives the meaning of 'apollumi' as metaphoricallly 'to devote or give over to eternal misery' (Thayer 1885/1962:64).

Since Thayer was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition of the Greek should be a result of his knowledge of this Greek word. Even Thayer acknowledges the lexicographical evidence does not support annihilation or 'to pass into non-existence'. Thus, 'destroy' means God's inflicting everlasting punishment (see also Matt 25:46; Mk 9:47 & 2 Thess 1:9).

These Scriptures provide supporting evidence for Gehenna not meaning non-existence.

• Matt 9:17 (ESV), 'Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed [apollumi]. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved'. Here apollumi means 'ruined' and not annihilated.
• Luke 15:4 (ESV), 'What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost [apollumi] one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost [apollumi], until he finds it?' So, we here have apollumi meaning to lose one and not one who was annihilated. See also Lk 15:6, 8, 9.
• John 6:12 (ESV), 'And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, “Gather up the leftover fragments, that nothing may be lost [apollumi]"'. 'May be lost' should not be translated as 'annihilated' because that is not what it means in this context. See also Jn 6:27; 2 Cor 4:9, etc.

Are people annihilated or pass into non-existence when killed by the sword (see Matt 26:52) or destroyed by serpents (1 Cor 10:9). What about Luke 15:17? Do people skip away into non-existence when they are hungry? See Luke 15:17. Is food annihilated when it spoils (John 6:27)?

I think the priest with which you interacted needs to be exposed to a comprehensive range of the biblical use of apollumi to see that it does not mean annihilation as he explained to you. As I stated in my article, I've not found one example of the use of apollumi in the NT where it means to pass out of existence.

I'm open to be proven wrong.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

He's a priest who is dishonest with the Greek text. Here's why:

• Matt 10:28 (ESV) states: 'And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]'. 'Destroy' is the Greek, apollumi, meaning to be delivered up (to eternal misery) for both soul and body.

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon gives the meaning of 'apollumi' as metaphoricallly 'to devote or give over to eternal misery' (Thayer 1885/1962:64).

Since Thayer was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition of the Greek should be a result of his knowledge of this Greek word. Even Thayer acknowledges the lexicographical evidence does not support annihilation or 'to pass into non-existence'. Thus, 'destroy' means God's inflicting everlasting punishment (see also Matt 25:46; Mk 9:47 & 2 Thess 1:9).

These Scriptures provide supporting evidence for Gehenna not meaning non-existence.

• Matt 9:17 (ESV), 'Neither is new wine put into old wineskins. If it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled and the skins are destroyed [apollumi]. But new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved'. Here apollumi means 'ruined' and not annihilated.
• Luke 15:4 (ESV), 'What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost [apollumi] one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost [apollumi], until he finds it?' So, we here have apollumi meaning to lose one and not one who was annihilated. See also Lk 15:6, 8, 9.
• John 6:12 (ESV), 'And when they had eaten their fill, he told his disciples, “Gather up the leftover fragments, that nothing may be lost [apollumi]"'. 'May be lost' should not be translated as 'annihilated' because that is not what it means in this context. See also Jn 6:27; 2 Cor 4:9, etc.

Are people annihilated or pass into non-existence when killed by the sword (see Matt 26:52) or destroyed by serpents (1 Cor 10:9). What about Luke 15:17? Do people skip away into non-existence when they are hungry? See Luke 15:17. Is food annihilated when it spoils (John 6:27)?

I think the priest with which you interacted needs to be exposed to a comprehensive range of the biblical use of apollumi to see that it does not mean annihilation as he explained to you. As I stated in my article, I've not found one example of the use of apollumi in the NT where it means to pass out of existence.

I'm open to be proven wrong.

Oz

Oh my Oz,
He didn't explain to to me personally or he would have heard it !!
What about when Jesus says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Some priests (he's not the only one) believe God cannot be so mean as to send someone to an eternal tormented destiny. Another priest I know believes hell lasts for just a short time and that's it. Which is about the same as annhialism, if you ask me.

I don't know the first priest well and will not be talking to him.
He announced at a CATHOLIC MASS about two years ago that there's no such place as hell, and APOLOGIZED to the congregation --- he said because the word "hell" was translated incorrectly from the Greek/Latin. Some of my friends and I were appalled --- when I DO go to Mass, it's not at his church.

The second priest I speak of above that believes hell is temporary, is a personal friend so I do speak to him about many different topics. Of course, his mind doesn't get changed and neither does mine...but we have interesting conversations. He knows both Hebrew and Koine Greek and taught the languages and the theology...but still different persons come up with different meanings -- I think, based on what they could accept; which is wrong, of course. The N.T. says what it says and we shouldn't sugarcoat it.

 

[OzSpen]

Oh my Oz,
He didn't explain to to me personally or he would have heard it !!
What about when Jesus says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

wondering,

I don't understand why you ask this as I know there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

Some priests (he's not the only one) believe God cannot be so mean as to send someone to an eternal tormented destiny.

It has nothing to do with God being mean but everything to do with the nature of God and the one against all human beings have sinned.

See Michael Houdmann’s article, “How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?“ See also my articles,

• Is hell fair?
• Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

Another priest I know believes hell lasts for just a short time and that's it. Which is about the same as annhialism, if you ask me.

Where in Scripture is that doctrine found? Could it be an invention by the priest?

I don't know the first priest well and will not be talking to him.
He announced at a CATHOLIC MASS about two years ago that there's no such place as hell, and APOLOGIZED to the congregation --- he said because the word "hell" was translated incorrectly from the Greek/Latin. Some of my friends and I were appalled --- when I DO go to Mass, it's not at his church.

There is an increasing number of Protestants who also take that view. I have a Baptist friend in Indiana who is in his mid-80s. He has been a Baptist pastor for over 40 years and has recently retired. He doesn't believe in hell. Neither does eminent pastor, Rob Bell (Time magazine).

The N.T. says what it says and we shouldn't sugarcoat it.

You are dead right. To sugarcoat Scripture and arrive at a concocted personal theory of the afterlife is to impose on Scripture. Both you and I could be doing it, but we need to be shown from Scripture that this is so.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I don't understand why you ask this as I know there will be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.



It has nothing to do with God being mean but everything to do with the nature of God and the one against all human beings have sinned.

See Michael Houdmann’s article, “How is eternity in hell a fair punishment for sin?“ See also my articles,

• Is hell fair?
• Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

Where in Scripture is that doctrine found? Could it be an invention by the priest?



There is an increasing number of Protestants who also take that view. I have a Baptist friend in Indiana who is in his mid-80s. He has been a Baptist pastor for over 40 years and has recently retired. He doesn't believe in hell. Neither does eminent pastor, Rob Bell (Time magazine).



You are dead right. To sugarcoat Scripture and arrive at a concocted personal theory of the afterlife is to impose on Scripture. Both you and I could be doing it, but we need to be shown from Scripture that this is so.

Oz

Oz, sometimes I'm not asking something....but saying somethingn to add to the conversation.

When I said..."how about when Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" I was SPEAKING TO YOU about that verse and how it shows there IS hell, I was not asking. I understand that this is not really smart to do on a forum,,,

And yes, some ideas ARE inventions of a particular priest. They have their own ideas just like we do. Everyone things priests all agree...well, they don't and I know this for sure.

But they're SUPPOSED to teach what the magesterium of the CC teaches, which is why I was shocked at the priest that apologized personally for the church teaching there's a hell. He should keep his personal ideas to himself, and especially on this subject. I live in a small town...it was all the talk for the next two weeks. Many were happy to hear it...many were very upset that he would do this.

The current Pope has created this atmosphere.
The CC as we knew it has come to an end.
Let me stop here.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, sometimes I'm not asking something....but saying somethingn to add to the conversation.

When I said..."how about when Jesus said there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" I was SPEAKING TO YOU about that verse and how it shows there IS hell, I was not asking. I understand that this is not really smart to do on a forum,,,

And yes, some ideas ARE inventions of a particular priest. They have their own ideas just like we do. Everyone things priests all agree...well, they don't and I know this for sure.

But they're SUPPOSED to teach what the magesterium of the CC teaches, which is why I was shocked at the priest that apologized personally for the church teaching there's a hell. He should keep his personal ideas to himself, and especially on this subject. I live in a small town...it was all the talk for the next two weeks. Many were happy to hear it...many were very upset that he would do this.

The current Pope has created this atmosphere.
The CC as we knew it has come to an end.
Let me stop here.

wondering,

Who could deny that Jesus Christ was not compassionate towards the down and out, prostitutes and sinners, the sick and grieving? This forgiving and empathic Saviour described hell as a place of:

• darkness (Matt. 8:12; 22:13);
• a fiery furnace (Matt. 13:42, 50; cf. Matt. 5:22; 13:30;18:8-9’ 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48);
• the undying worm (Mark 9:48). Since darkness and burning fire are opposites (you cannot have one if you have the other), this suggests that both may be understood figuratively – symbolic description of the hopeless plight of unbelievers.
• “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28). These are not tears of bereavement over temporal loss, but those “of inconsolable, never-ending wretchedness, and utter, everlasting hopelessness” (Hendriksen 1978:707). The grinding or gnashing of teeth indicates “frenzied anger, unmitigated rage” (Hendriksen loc. cit.) This suggests the despair of those who have forever missed life’s purpose by their rejection of Jesus Christ.

My understanding of the ‘weeping’ is because of the complete loss of joy and happiness because they are damned forever. As for the ‘gnashing of teeth’, it could be caused by the fury of helplessness in hell. However, it seems better suited to relate it to the ‘excruciating torment of the outer darkness’ (Lenski). See also Matt 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Lk 13:28. The language of ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ indicates that this is punishment that continues for unbelievers after death. ‘The damned shall not be annihilated’ (Lenski).

• “cutting to pieces” (Matt. 24:51), being a figure for extremely severe punishment.
• eternal punishment (Matt. 25:46) that was as eternal as the eternity of God.

It is not easy for us to imagine the eternity of hell. One reason is that all the things we do and experience come to an end one day. However, the punishment of unbelievers in hell will continue for ever and ever. Just as God and heaven are eternal (everlasting), so the punishment of hell will be eternal.

Oz

P.S. Do you accept the authority of the Pope over the church? I understand you live in a small community with no Protestant churches.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Who could deny that Jesus Christ was not compassionate towards the down and out, prostitutes and sinners, the sick and grieving? This forgiving and empathic Saviour described hell as a place of:

• darkness (Matt. 8:12; 22:13);
• a fiery furnace (Matt. 13:42, 50; cf. Matt. 5:22; 13:30;18:8-9’ 25:41; Mark 9:43, 48);
• the undying worm (Mark 9:48). Since darkness and burning fire are opposites (you cannot have one if you have the other), this suggests that both may be understood figuratively – symbolic description of the hopeless plight of unbelievers.
• “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt. 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Luke 13:28). These are not tears of bereavement over temporal loss, but those “of inconsolable, never-ending wretchedness, and utter, everlasting hopelessness” (Hendriksen 1978:707). The grinding or gnashing of teeth indicates “frenzied anger, unmitigated rage” (Hendriksen loc. cit.) This suggests the despair of those who have forever missed life’s purpose by their rejection of Jesus Christ.

My understanding of the ‘weeping’ is because of the complete loss of joy and happiness because they are damned forever. As for the ‘gnashing of teeth’, it could be caused by the fury of helplessness in hell. However, it seems better suited to relate it to the ‘excruciating torment of the outer darkness’ (Lenski). See also Matt 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30; Lk 13:28. The language of ‘weeping and gnashing of teeth’ indicates that this is punishment that continues for unbelievers after death. ‘The damned shall not be annihilated’ (Lenski).

• “cutting to pieces” (Matt. 24:51), being a figure for extremely severe punishment.
• eternal punishment (Matt. 25:46) that was as eternal as the eternity of God.

It is not easy for us to imagine the eternity of hell. One reason is that all the things we do and experience come to an end one day. However, the punishment of unbelievers in hell will continue for ever and ever. Just as God and heaven are eternal (everlasting), so the punishment of hell will be eternal.

Oz

P.S. Do you accept the authority of the Pope over the church? I understand you live in a small community with no Protestant churches.

No. And especially not THIS pope.
He's a disgrace.

I mean,,, I accept that the Pope has authority over the church,,,or at least they USED to. Many priests are rebelling against this pope.

I personally do NOT accept his authority but that does not mean that there should not be one in authority. Every denominational church has a hierarchy. This is necessary to keep an institution organized. After all, the church (small c) is also an institution.

It's just that I don't care for the rigidness of the CC and its interpretation of some scripture. But maybe every denomination has this too? I don't know.

 

[OzSpen]

It's just that I don't care for the rigidness of the CC and its interpretation of some scripture. But maybe every denomination has this too? I don't know.

wondering,

Doesn't the Pope have more power than the leader of any Protestant denomination, such as the Church of the Nazarene? I have never attended a Protestant church where the denomination's leader spoke ex cathedra.

We are right off topic so had better continue our discussion in another thread. Would you like to start another one with a title such as: 'The Protestant churches have same 'power' as RCC'.

Oz