No confusion about Mary

[Heidi]

The reason we Christians talk about the catholic church so much is that it has confused Mary with God. Oh they say they don't but their actions show the opposite. This is a tragedy because it confuses people on who to turn to.

They treat Mary the exact same way they treat God. They hail her, praise her, and pray to her. They say that Mary heals, not Christ. The pope actually gave credit to Mary for healing him from the assassination attempt instead of God! That's why billions of people go to Lourdes' in France because that's where they were told that Mary heals. There is nothing the catholics do for God that they don't also do for Mary. They treat God with no more respect than they treat Mary. I've seen catholics actually ask for forgiveness for their sins from Mary instead of God! I've heard then say "Hail Mary's" when they sinned instead of turned to Christ. This is ludicrous!

But there isn't that confusion in the non-catholic churches. Non- catholics see Mary the way the bible sees Mary. She is talked about as much as the bible is talked about which is hardly at all. God is worshiped and scripture is read. We praise and worship God and read scripture just like the early churches before the catholic church. Therefore our focus is on Christ, not on Mary.

The clergy in non-catholic churches don't walk around in priestly robes for men to see that they're "holy". They dress like everyone else so as not to call attention to their "holiness." There's no mention of Paul and the apostles dressing any differently than anyone else. There's no reason to unless they want to be set apart from the crowd as Jesus tells us in Matthew 23.

The non-catholic churches are not perfect. But we are the first to admit that. So we don't keep practices that are unscriptural for the sake of tradition. Tradition in the catholic church means "perfection" and infallibility" and that's why they don't change anything no matter how unscriptural it is. That's why the bible says not to honor tradiiton above Christ's principles.

But this shouldn't be a war between catholics and protestants. Christianity isn't a competition. It's the capacity to look at the planks in our own eyes, whether catholic or non-catholic. But the catholics are unable to do that as long as they say their doctrine is infallible. Then tradition becomes more important than the principles of Christ. But tradition is simply another word for stubborness and a refusal to admit fallibility which is actually the sin of pride.

The non-catholic churches, however, are more likely to do that than the catholic church because we don't see ourselves as infallible. There are some non-catholic churches that still keep unscriptural practes but they are always discussed and voted upon by the councils. But that can never happen in a church where the leader (who should be Christ) dictates the doctrine and declares it infallible.

And that is what is so scary about the catholic church. It is also why there are many catholics who can never leave the church because they believe the pope is their Holy Father. So no matter how much scripture is contradicted, in their beliefs, they can never follow only Christ. They are encouraged to follow the pope instead. If that weren't true, then they would not always defend the pope's doctrine over the bible, but they do.

So my reason for witnessing to catholics is to lead them to Christ instead of the pope. The pope can't do anything for you and neither can Mary! They didn't save you and they cannot give you the Holy Spirit, only God can.

 

[thessalonian]

Heidi,

Your very post is unscriptural. It creates a false dichotomy between God and those who he WORKED THROUGH.

The reason we Christians talk about the catholic church so much is that it has confused Mary with God.

Nope, God created the sun and the moon and the stars and the earth, i.e. the whole universe both spiritual and corporal and keeps it alive. Mary is simply one of his creatures. She does have power to ask favors of him. So do we, but being his mother (having given birth to the Christ Child, God made man) her prayers are in fact stronger than ours. Yet Mary can do nothing in and of her own power. Mary apart from Christ is nothing.

Oh they say they don't but their actions show the opposite. This is a tragedy because it confuses people on who to turn to.

You make yourself out to be a heart judge Heidi. You aint that powerful.

They treat Mary the exact same way they treat God. They hail her, praise her, and pray to her.

And the angel of the Lord said "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee...". We even have the audacity to say that she is "blessed among women" and "all generations shall call" her blessed. Wicked people we are. We ask her prayers. That is the context of our requests, prayers if you like, are. We do not believe SHE can do anything for us except ask the grace of her son.

They say that Mary heals, not Christ. The pope actually gave credit to Mary for healing him from the assassination attempt instead of God!

False dichotomy number 2. Nothing is apart from Christ in Catholic thought. This is like saying that Paul healed instead of Christ in Acts 19 (or should I say his hanky). In no way would we separate any healing from Christ as you do with this false dichotomy. Once again you don't think like a Catholic so stop claiming what is ins our hearts.

That's why billions of people go to Lourdes' in France because that's where they were told that Mary heals. There is nothing the catholics do for God that they don't also do for Mary. They treat God with no more respect than they treat Mary. I've seen catholics actually ask for forgiveness for their sins from Mary instead of God! I've heard then say "Hail Mary's" when they sinned instead of turned to Christ. This is ludicrous!

Heidi, do you know what the Mass is. It is the highest form of prayer in the Catholic Church. No Mass is said to Mary. It is to God the Father. No prayer to any saint comes close to the praise and adoration given to God in the most holy sacrifice of the Mass. You haven't got a clue.

But there isn't that confusion in the non-catholic churches. Non- catholics see Mary the way the bible sees Mary. She is talked about as much as the bible is talked about which is hardly at all. God is worshiped and scripture is read. We praise and worship God and read scripture just like the early churches before the catholic church. Therefore our focus is on Christ, not on Mary.

Well in many sermons I hear more about Paul then Christ. Gee, you must be worshipping him.

The clergy in non-catholic churches don't walk around in priestly robes for men to see that they're "holy". They dress like everyone else so as not to call attention to their "holiness." There's no mention of Paul and the apostles dressing any differently than anyone else. There's no reason to unless they want to be set apart from the crowd as Jesus tells us in Matthew 23.

More pharasitical judgement of Catholics by a Protestant. Priests are dressed that way so they can easily be identified as priests by those who may need their help. Not to show off their holiness. The clothes don't make the man. Do you really think it is easy for a priest to wear those cassocks in this day and age? I can tell you they get more ridcule than support in the streets by people like you who look down upon them. The priests I know are in fact good and humble men and are not trying to show off their holiness. You speak what you do not know in ignorance and promote prejudice. Also as a matter of fact pastors in many protestant Churches (Lutheran, Episcopalian, Methodist, even baptist) do dress differently. And yes, clergy in the Bible did in fact dress differently many times. It is not unbiblical.

The non-catholic churches are not perfect. But we are the first to admit that. So we don't keep practices that are unscriptural for the sake of tradition. Tradition in the catholic church means "perfection" and infallibility" and that's why they don't change anything no matter how unscriptural it is. That's why the bible says not to honor tradiiton above Christ's principles.

More nonsense. We as Catholics don't claim to be perfect but we claim the fullness of Christ's teaching for that is what keeps us on the rode to perfection. Protestant teaching is all over the map to where it doesn't really matter what is taught or whether one KNOWS what he is following is true or not. We do not honor tradition above Christ's principals. Sorry dear. You only prove with posts like this that you haven't got a clue about Catholicism. Thanks.

But this shouldn't be a war between catholics and protestants. Christianity isn't a competition. It's the capacity to look at the planks in our own eyes, whether catholic or non-catholic. But the catholics are unable to do that as long as they say their doctrine is infallible. Then tradition becomes more important than the principles of Christ. But tradition is simply another word for stubborness and a refusal to admit fallibility which is actually the sin of pride.

You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free the Bible says. But Heidi doesn't believe the truth is knowable. Those who worship shall worship in spirit and in TRUTH. Oh, perhaps you missed that in the Bible. The truth is not knowable for you Heidi. Your very post admits that you do not worship in it. Sorry.

The non-catholic churches, however, are more likely to do that than the catholic church because we don't see ourselves as infallible. There are some non-catholic churches that still keep unscriptural practes but they are always discussed and voted upon by the councils. But that can never happen in a church where the leader (who should be Christ) dictates the doctrine and declares it infallible.

YOu don't even go to Church Heidi and it is clear you don't know what goes on in them. Our leaders do not dictate the doctrine as you claim. They are stewards of the teachings of Christ, not Lords. Their obligation is to uphold what has always been taught and that is what they have done with a non-prejudiced historical analysis of what has gone on in the Church. If you look at decisisions on doctrinal matters by Popes, they are rare and not off the cuff. There are few actual infallible declarations by Popes. Ludwig Ott's Dogma of Catholicism lists 20 over 2000 years. It's hardly the willy nilly thing that Heidi paints it to be. Most dogmatic statements of the Church have in fact been pronounced by Councils after a vote. Over 350 of them.

And that is what is so scary about the catholic church. It is also why there are many catholics who can never leave the church because they believe the pope is their Holy Father. So no matter how much scripture is contradicted, in their beliefs, they can never follow only Christ. They are encouraged to follow the pope instead. If that weren't true, then they would not always defend the pope's doctrine over the bible, but they do.

Pope's doctrine? Heidi you have no clue. All that the Pope has declared can be defended with scriptures. I've done it but you ignore my defenses and claim your right. (Heidi your not infallible).

So my reason for witnessing to catholics is to lead them to Christ instead of the pope. The pope can't do anything for you and neither can Mary! They didn't save you and they cannot give you the Holy Spirit, only God can.

We don't believe that a pope or Mary save us, except in that they may help us attain some grace of Christ like Heidi would ask someone to pray for her. Heidi your post is nonsense and ignorance. Your witness will not convert any Catholics on this board. Sorry dear. But keep trying.

Blessings
_________________

 

[Heidi]

There you go, defending the pope over the bible again. Its there anything that the pope says that you disagree with? :o Or do you truly think everything he says as infallible as God is? Which is it? If you say he's not, then please show us where you think his words and doctrine are fallible. Otherwise, I'll believe your actions because they disagree with your words. Wolves in sheep's clothing say one thing and do another. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

 

[thessalonian]

There you go, defending the pope over the bible again. Its there anything that the pope says that you disagree with? :o Or do you truly think everything he says as infallible as God is? Which is it? If you say he's not, then please show us where you think his words and doctrine are fallible. Otherwise, I'll believe your actions because they disagree with your words. Wolves in sheep's clothing say one thing and do another. "A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Heidi,

Your posts do me a favor. My post was not a defense of Popes. Show me where it was? Catholic doctrine is consistent with the Bible. I don't need statements of Popes to say that. I won't defend any of Catholic doctrine/dogma with statements of Popes. Don't recall that I have on this board. Do I think that every word the Pope says is infallible? No and neither does the Church say that they are. The Catholic Church has stood just fine for 2000 years. You simply don't know what your talking about and continue to prove it. For that I want to say thank you. You help me out in my job on this board.

 

[thessalonian]

wrong thread.
Blessings

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

He has a point. If the pope is in line with Christ, then why should be disagree with him? That would be disagreeing with Christ. However, if what they say isnt in line, they probably didnt write it, or wrote it somewhere it didnt matter... like a letter, or something like that. Not official doctrine. Maybe you should come up with some things. One at a time tho and we will prove you wrong, one by one. Why should we fish around and waste our time trying to find something that some pope says that disagrees with the Bible. We dont follow it if it would disagree, and if it does, it doesnt really matter cause it got mooted even if it ever happened. And you are just one adversary. And i find argueing with you quite circular and not particularly edifying... so why should thess, or me, or any other catholic here waste our time? You got beef? You bring up something specific and we'll deal with it case by case. Generalities are a waste of our time and a demonstration of ignorance. The easy way out, i would say.

 

[Klee shay]

Hi Thess, can I ask you a few questions about what you've written without necessarily questioning your faith in Jesus. A few things struck my Spirit which I needed clarity on.

Mary is simply one of his creatures. She does have power to ask favors of him. So do we, but being his mother (having given birth to the Christ Child, God made man) her prayers are in fact stronger than ours.

If Mary's prayers were stronger than ours; wouldn't that contradict the nature of God where there is no respect amongst persons'? In other words we are all considered the same.

If we are all in Christ (whether living on Earth or living in Heaven) how would He distinguish between those with weak prayers and those with stronger prayers? Are we not all the same if we are subject to the same grace, mercy and forgiveness of Jesus?

Yet Mary can do nothing in and of her own power. Mary apart from Christ is nothing.

Isn't this the same for everyone though? We are all given the power of the Holy Spirit to do the Will of God only. If prayers are not answered when we pray directly to Jesus, perhaps it is not the Will of God to answer the prayers in which we'd hoped?

If Mary cannot do anything of her own power; would she then take pity on others where Jesus would not and get him to change his mind? Please foregive my wording. I'm not trying to poke fun at you but merely to understand the justification you've used above. I cannot think of any other way to put my query without sounding like I'm being sarcastic. Forgive me.

We do not believe SHE can do anything for us except ask the grace of her son.

Anyone who believes in Jesus can ask for the grace of her son though, can't they? I'm only concerned you believe Mary has more influence in her prayers than say asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Protestant teaching is all over the map to where it doesn't really matter what is taught or whether one KNOWS what he is following is true or not.

I would agree that most Protestant teaching is all over the place; but whether content is true or not, or whether it matters, is up to the Lord wouldn't you agree? Anything which is in the bible needs to be tested with the Holy Spirit first, before it becomes truth to an individual.

Just trying to get your thoughts on the letter of the law and the law of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe they are exclusive or inclusive of one another?

We don't believe that a pope or Mary save us, except in that they may help us attain some grace of Christ like Heidi would ask someone to pray for her.

This comparision would be true if Mary and the Pope are considered ordinary people like everyone else. Then it doesn't become a distraction from the Lord.

For example; if Heidi asked me to pray for her only because she believed my prayers were stronger than hers'; wouldn't you agree that my intervention would be a distraction from the Lord?

Do you believe Mary and any Pope (past and present) have the same power and influence of anyone who believes in the Lord?

 

[Heidi]

How can Mary help us attain anything? :o Where is that in the bible? Grace comes from the Holy Spirit and so does salvation! Jesus said; "Eternal life is this; "that they know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Now everyone knows about Christ, even Hitelr and stalin. So that can't be what Jesus means. He means personally knowing Christ as he explains in John chapter 14 and chater 17, throught the personhood of Christ dwelling inside true believers. So how can Mary give us the personhood of Christ? :o Where did the bible say that Mary will send us the Holy Spirit? :o

This proves my OP perfectly that catholics give Mary the credit for what God does in the individual! Thessalonian proves that by saying that Mary can help give us Grace. And this is what happens when Mary is so focused on in the catholic church! She is given credit as "co-redemtrix" "Queen of heaven" she is called a perpetual virgin and sinless! None of this is biblical. No wonder I've heard so many catholics ask Mary for forgiveness! I can see why they would think that because of the ridiculous focus on her in the catholic church!

But again, there isn't that confusion about Mary in the protestant churches. That's not to say that the protestant churches are perfect but it is simply a fact that there is no confusion about who saves us. Mary isn't prayed to, hailed or worshiped. There are no "rosary beads" statues, or protestant churches named after Mary. She is, as I already mentioned, talked about as much as the bible talks about her which is hardly at all. So why do the catholics do it? It confuses people as I've heard from amny catholics. And it can take a lifetime to break the habit of praying to Mary and asking her for forgiveness instead of to God alone.

 

[Heidi]

I also want to add that Peter, Paul, and all of the apostles and people in the NT who came to Christ did so without any help from Mary whatsoever.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi Heidi!

Happy Passover all!

Back to link a thread where the RCs never had courage to link their cataclysmically catastrophic catechism so that all who know their Bible can see that all the distinctive RC dogma & practices are UNbiblical & originate from forbidden Babylon occult mystery, as in the Mystery Babylon Great Whore of Revelation 17..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Do Google Vatican & hit catechism, OK?

God bless all who truly seek to follow Christ!

Ian

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

The RCC cant be the whore of babylon. The Vatican hill, where the Vatican is is seated on the wrong side of the Tiber. Its the other side that contains the six hills of Rome where the whore of babylon is supposed to reside. I think its a perfect juxtaposition for the battle between good and evil in the end of days.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

So how can Mary give us the personhood of Christ? Where did the bible say that Mary will send us the Holy Spirit?
This proves my OP perfectly that catholics give Mary the credit for what God does in the individual!

"The more the Holy Ghost finds Mary, His dear and inseperable spouse, in any soul, the more active and mighty He becomes in producing Jesus Christ in that soul, and that soul in Jesus Christ."

--St Louis DeMontfort

Jesus said; "Eternal life is this; "that they know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." Now everyone knows about Christ, even Hitelr and stalin. So that can't be what Jesus means. He means personally knowing Christ as he explains in John chapter 14 and chater 17, throught the personhood of Christ dwelling inside true believers.

"Jesus Christ gave more glory to God the Father by submission to His Mother during those thirty years than He would have given Him in converting the whole world by the working of the most stupendous miracles. Oh how highly we glorify God when, to please Him, we submit ourselves to Mary, after the example of Jesus Christ, our sole Exemplar!"

--St. Louis DeMontfort

Thessalonian proves that by saying that Mary can help give us Grace. And this is what happens when Mary is so focused on in the catholic church!

"If we examine closely the rest of our Blessed Lord's life, we shall see that it was His will to begin His miracles by Mary. He sanctified St. John in the womb of his mother, St. Elizabeth, but it was by Marys word. No sooner had she spoken than John was sanctified; and this was grace. At the marriage of Cana, He changed water into wine, but it was at Mary's humble prayer; and this was His first miracle of nature. He began and continued his miracles by Mary, and He will continue them to the end of the ages by Mary."

--St. Louis DeMontfort

And it can take a lifetime to break the habit of praying to Mary and asking her for forgiveness instead of to God alone.

"For Mary is infinitely below her Son, who is God, and therefore she does not command Him as a mother here below would command her child who is below her."

--St. Louis DeMontfort

Mary isn't prayed to, hailed or worshiped.

"For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed. "

Gospel of Luke Ch. 1 v. 48

 

[thessalonian]

Hi Heidi!

Happy Passover all!

Back to link a thread where the RCs never had courage to link their cataclysmically catastrophic catechism so that all who know their Bible can see that all the distinctive RC dogma & practices are UNbiblical & originate from forbidden Babylon occult mystery, as in the Mystery Babylon Great Whore of Revelation 17..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Do Google Vatican & hit catechism, OK?

God bless all who truly seek to follow Christ!

Ian

Courage to link to the Catechism? The thread wasn't about the Catechism. It was about the Hislop nonsense that was proven wrong except in the minds of those who won't listen to reason. Your posts have no content, only accusations. Here is a link to the whole catechism. Enjoy.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[MrVersatile48]

The RCC cant be the whore of babylon. The Vatican hill, where the Vatican is is seated on the wrong side of the Tiber. Its the other side that contains the six hills of Rome where the whore of babylon is supposed to reside. I think its a perfect juxtaposition for the battle between good and evil in the end of days.

Readers, see all the details of Revelation 17 to see right thru this pathetic smokescreen

In those days, 'a man of the 7 hills' meant a Roman citizen

& Vat City not built then, obviously!!

But even today's tourist brochures say, 'Vat City, Rome'

EU founded by Treaty of Rome & trumpetted, by 'founding father' Monet as a revived Roman Empire

Per Daniel 7, it is 3 times prophesied to crush, trample & devour victims..

till the Ancient of Days crushes it by the splendour of His coming!

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi Heidi!

Happy Passover all!

Back to link a thread where the RCs never had courage to link their cataclysmically catastrophic catechism so that all who know their Bible can see that all the distinctive RC dogma & practices are UNbiblical & originate from forbidden Babylon occult mystery, as in the Mystery Babylon Great Whore of Revelation 17..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Do Google Vatican & hit catechism, OK?

That link is not to the catechism

Back with google so all who know their |Bible can prove that all distinctive RC dogma & practices are indeed UNbiblical & occult-originated

Forbidden by Deuteronomy 18:9-13 etc

Again, see my thorough post in:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

& more in that 6-page thread, where you'll see nothing but smokescreens from Tess & Phat..

God bless all who truly seek to follow Christ!

Ian

Courage to link to the Catechism? The thread wasn't about the Catechism. It was about the Hislop nonsense that was proven wrong except in the minds of those who won't listen to reason. Your posts have no content, only accusations. Here is a link to the whole catechism. Enjoy.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[thessalonian]

Mr. V,

Are you ever going to answer phat's questions directed at you in that thread or simply ignore the arguments of the opposing side and post non-related clutter as you are doing in this thread?

 

[thessalonian]

If Mary's prayers were stronger than ours; wouldn't that contradict the nature of God where there is no respect amongst persons'? In other words we are all considered the same.

That is your interpretation of what God means by saying he is not a respector of persons. We are not all the same. Jesus tells us there will be those greater than John the Baptist in the Kingdom of God. Now certainly John the Baptist is there so quite clearly everyone is not equal there. We have the parable of the talents. One is given five, another two, and another one. They do not provide equal return and are not given equal reward. Can't find the passage right now but it says "the one who rules well will recieve a greater share of the prize.". I think it is in Titus.

If we are all in Christ (whether living on Earth or living in Heaven) how would He distinguish between those with weak prayers and those with stronger prayers? Are we not all the same if we are subject to the same grace, mercy and forgiveness of Jesus?

We are on different levels in the spirit. Some on milk and some on meat. I don't question how God would distinguish anything. James says "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". This is an indiciation that some people's prayers are more efficacious than others.

Isn't this the same for everyone though? We are all given the power of the Holy Spirit to do the Will of God only. If prayers are not answered when we pray directly to Jesus, perhaps it is not the Will of God to answer the prayers in which we'd hoped?

Well first of all we do not do the will of God only. Those in heaven are in full communion with his will. Sometimes the answer is no as you pointed out. Sometimes the answer is not yet. He wants us to persevere in prayer like the blind beggar who kept asking "Jesus Son of David have mercy on me" over and over.

If Mary cannot do anything of her own power; would she then take pity on others where Jesus would not and get him to change his mind? Please foregive my wording. I'm not trying to poke fun at you but merely to understand the justification you've used above. I cannot think of any other way to put my query without sounding like I'm being sarcastic. Forgive me.

I don't think it's about changing God's mind. He is going to give us what we need. Her prayers are aligned with his will. I think of it more as bringing about his will for our lives sooner.

Anyone who believes in Jesus can ask for the grace of her son though, can't they? I'm only concerned you believe Mary has more influence in her prayers than say asking a brother or sister in Christ to pray for you.

Those in heaven are aligned with the will of God. They are one with him and so they do in fact have more power in their prayers. That only makes sense to me. They are in full communion with Christ. We are still following our corrupted natures.

I would agree that most Protestant teaching is all over the place; but whether content is true or not, or whether it matters, is up to the Lord wouldn't you agree? Anything which is in the bible needs to be tested with the Holy Spirit first, before it becomes truth to an individual.

All that is well and good but the scriptures tell us the truth is knowable. Yet I don't see Churches lining up with eachother. I only see more division.. Division is not of the Holy Spirit. You can't just say "whether it matters is up to the Lord". The scriptures are clear that he wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". The truth is knowable. tens of thousands of denominations is not truth. And error cannot be without consequence. I don't believe that God wants it all settled when we face the judge.

Just trying to get your thoughts on the letter of the law and the law of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe they are exclusive or inclusive of one another?

Not quite sure what you mean.

This comparision would be true if Mary and the Pope are considered ordinary people like everyone else. Then it doesn't become a distraction from the Lord.

It is no distraction at all. My relationship with Mary brings me closer to Christ.

For example; if Heidi asked me to pray for her only because she believed my prayers were stronger than hers'; wouldn't you agree that my intervention would be a distraction from the Lord?

??? No I don't. We are told in scripture to pray for eachother.

Do you believe Mary and any Pope (past and present) have the same power and influence of anyone who believes in the Lord?

Only by there intercession for others calling for the grace of Christ. Once again they have no power of their own.

 

[Heidi]

:o

 

[Klee shay]

We are not all the same.

Are you saying that we do not all exist in the SAME body of Christ who have asked Jesus to enter our lives? Is there only one Holy Spirit?

Jesus tells us there will be those greater than John the Baptist in the Kingdom of God. Now certainly John the Baptist is there so quite clearly everyone is not equal there.

There will certainly be those in the Kingdom of God greater than John the Baptist as Jesus foretold...but what do you make of the parable which Jesus also foretold that the first will be last and the last will be first?

If the greater is last and the last is greater, doesn't that balance out to equality in the Kingdom of God to you?

We are on different levels in the spirit. Some on milk and some on meat. I don't question how God would distinguish anything. James says "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". This is an indiciation that some people's prayers are more efficacious than others.

You would be right that there are different levels of GROWTH in the Spirit, but it's still only one Spirit. One sacrifice for all, one Spirit for all. The growth of any person's Spirit is according to God's Will, would you agree? Hence if a person is unequal in growth to what is devinely righteous, it is to serve the Lord's Will. Paul was Saul first, so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to forgive. The seeing man was blind first, so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to heal. Living Lazarus was killed first so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to raise the dead.

I put it to you that the righteous man is on a journey of growth. He does not lose his righteousness because he fails to see what the Lord has yet to reveal.

Well first of all we do not do the will of God only.

So we have another we call Master, Teacher and Lord?

I don't think it's about changing God's mind. He is going to give us what we need. Her prayers are aligned with his will. I think of it more as bringing about his will for our lives sooner.

Sooner than what? If God's will is unchangeable and everything in mankind happens according to His devine Will only, then how can anyone make it come sooner than that? Your prayers to Mary on your behalf and my one's for Heidi on her behalf (according to our previous example) can only have the same effect if we are appealing to the same Holy Spirit that brings about God's Will.

Those in heaven are aligned with the will of God. They are one with him and so they do in fact have more power in their prayers. That only makes sense to me. They are in full communion with Christ. We are still following our corrupted natures.

But the Last Day of Judgement has not happened yet. No-one has been given their prize; no rewards have been measured. This can only come with the Kingdom of God. Heaven is where the dead wait for the Son's return. Earth is where the living wait for the Son's return. No-one has any power than the Lord. We are all servants - no-one is Master save the Lord.

All that is well and good but the scriptures tell us the truth is knowable. Yet I don't see Churches lining up with eachother. I only see more division.. Division is not of the Holy Spirit.

And yet there are different levels of growth in the Holy Spirit where people may find reason to divide over?

You can't just say "whether it matters is up to the Lord". The scriptures are clear that he wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". The truth is knowable. tens of thousands of denominations is not truth. And error cannot be without consequence. I don't believe that God wants it all settled when we face the judge.

I can say that it matters and is only up to the Lord because I follow His Will. Many different people find many different truths out of one bible, but there is only one truth and only one Spirit which can reveal it. I say 'reveal' because no-one just stumbles upon the knowledge of truth and stops growing. The truth is revealed and that is why many different men following the same Holy Spirit have built upon the foundation for centuries. The Kingdom is not complete and nothing is absolute until the Last day of Judgement.

The truth you follow is an interpretation just as the truth I follow is an interpretation of the one bible. The truth will be revealed by the Lord through His Holy Spirit alone.

Just trying to get your thoughts on the letter of the law and the law of the Holy Spirit. Do you believe they are exclusive or inclusive of one another?

Not quite sure what you mean.

Forgive me, I will have to come back to answer this one. I have an Easter occassion to attend soon, so I'm on limited time.

It is no distraction at all. My relationship with Mary brings me closer to Christ.

Closer than being with Christ in the Holy Spirit?

??? No I don't. We are told in scripture to pray for eachother.

Yes we were told to pray for each other but we were also told not to idolise anything greater than God. If Heidi asked me to pray on her behalf, idolising my greater power than hers to reach God - that is unbelief in the Holy Spirit by which our salvation was secured.

I can understand someone going to Mary to ask her to pray to Jesus, just as I would go to someone else and ask them to pray for me - but what I am discussing is where the power lies - in the Holy Spirit. We cannot deal in the Holy Spirit while also idolising someone else's power to effect our lives. Do you agree?

Only by there intercession for others calling for the grace of Christ. Once again they have no power of their own.

So you agree that they do have the same power as everyone else through the Holy Spirit?

 

[Heidi]

Saying that a relationship with Mary brings one closer to Christ is like saying that a relationship with my husband's mother can bring me closer to my husband! Particulary when his mother can't talk to me!

Sorry, but only a closer relationship with my husband can being me closer to my husand. That's called a personal relationship with my husband, not going through a mediator to talk to my husband. But some people simply don't understand that. :roll: