No confusion about Mary

[MrVersatile48]

Saying that a relationship with Mary brings one closer to Christ is like saying that a relationship with my husband's mother can bring me closer to my husband! Particulary when his mother can't talk to me!

Sorry, but only a closer relationship with my husband can being me closer to my husand. That's called a personal relationship with my husband, not going through a mediator to talk to my husband. But some people simply don't understand that. :roll:

Well said, Heidi!

The only time I accidentally tuned to EWTN, a 'priest' was giving the exact same talk as stopped me going to a charismatic RC-led after-church meeting that several from other churches had happily attended for @ 2 years - during which time there were NO hymns/prayers to Mary

The talk was @ 'Our proper relationship to Mary'

Only from respect to my friends (& soup kitchen colleagues) there, I didn't correct that blasphemer publicly

But I told my friends after that no pope had done more to spread Mary-olatry than JP2, & Papa Ratzi is in the same mouldy old mould

The proper relationship of any born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christian to Mary is brother & sister in Christ

She is NOT my mother, nor is she yours

She was NOT an eternal virgin: Jesus' younger brothers wrote James & Jude

Back with table of contents to the most masterly & thorough expose of RC lies, deceit & false teachings...

The masterly thorough scholarship of Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons is here:-

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15

Its table of contents & links to online book:-

The Two Babylons: Table of Contents
by Alexander Hislop. Philologos Religious Online Books. http://www.Philologos.org. The Two Babylons. or The Papal Worship. Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife. By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop http://www.philologos.org/__eb-ttb - 10k - Cached - More from this site - Save
Index - The Two Babylons

The Two Babylons gives proof of the Babylonian character of the Papal church. ... The Two Babylons. (or The Papal Worship Proved to be the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife). An extremely well-researched study by the Rev. Alexander Hislop ... http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/2babindx.htm - 8k - Cached - More from this site - Save

The Two Babylons--Alexander Hislop

The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop. The classic 323-page book detailing the pagan origins of various Roman Catholic traditions. Now see this online book in an easy to browse format. ... The Two Babylons. or The Papal Worship Proved to be. the Worship of Nimrod and His Wife. By the Late Rev. Alexander Hislop ... to order this book and others on ... http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon - 7k - Cached - More from this site - Save

The Two Babylons: The Invisible Head of the Papacy
by Alexander Hislop. Philologos Religious Online Books. http://www.Philologos.org.

The Two Babylons. Alexander Hislop. Chapter VII. Section V. The Name of the Beast, the Number of His Name-- The Invisible Head of the Papacy ... The name of the system is "Mystery" (Rev 17:5). Here ... Satur," the martyr. ( CHAMBER'S Book of Days ... http://www.philologos.org/__eb-ttb/sect75.htm - 53k - Cached - More from this site - Save


Contents
Introduction

Chapter I
Distinctive Character of the Two Systems (35k)

Chapter II
Objects of Worship
Section I. Trinity in Unity (22k)
Section II. The Mother and Child, and the Original of the Child (14k)

Sub-Section I. The Child in Assyria (57k)
Sub-Section II. The Child in Egypt (22k)
Sub-Section III. The Child in Greece (28k)
Sub-Section IV. The Death of the Child (10k)
Sub-Section V. The Deification of the Child (61k)

Section III. The Mother of the Child (73k)

Chapter III
Festivals
Section I. Christmas and Lady-day (35k)
Section II. Easter (41k)
Section III. The Nativity of St. John (42k)
Section IV. The Feast of the Assumption (11k)
See Chapter V, Section IV regarding Cupid (St. Valentine's Day)

Chapter IV
Doctrine and Discipline
Section I. Baptismal Regeneration (47k)
Section II. Justification by Works (39k)
Section III. The Sacrifice of the Mass (25k)
Section IV. Extreme Unction (6k)
Section V. Purgatory and Prayers for the Dead (10k)

Chapter V
Rites and Ceremonies
Section I. Idol Procession (15k)
Section II. Relic Worship (16k)
Section III. The Clothing and Crowning of Images (17k)
Section IV. The Rosary and the Worship of the Sacred Heart (10k)
Section V. Lamps and Wax-Candles (18k)
Section VI. The Sign of the Cross (21k)

Chapter VI
Religious Orders
Section I. The Sovereign Pontiff (36k)
Section II. Priests, Monks, and Nuns (19k)

Chapter VII
The Two Developments Historically and Prophetically Considered
Section I. The Great Red Dragon (79k)
Section II. The Beast from the Sea (44k)
Section III. The Beast from the Earth (22k)
Section IV. The Image of the Beast (26k)
Section V. The Name of the Beast, the Number of His Name Invisible Head of the Papacy (47k)

Conclusion (28k)

Thess falsely accuses me of being off-topic & not answering questions

UNBIASED READERS CAN SEE HIS CONSISTENT SMOKESCREEN DIVERSIONARY TACTICS & LACK OF ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF, LET ALONE REPENTANCE FOR, THE MANY, MANY ERRORS OF THE RC SYSTEM

Not least of which is setting up the ecumenical Mystery Babylon Great Whore of Revelation 17, which will persecute the true Bride of Christ even more than in its murky history so far..


Revelation 17
The Woman and the Beast

1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."
3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.
4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries.

5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

Must go - kinda like Revelation 18 commands God's true followers deceived into that false system..

Revelation 18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



Revelation 18
1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries."

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
for mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

9"When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!'

11"The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more 12cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls; fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth; every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory, costly wood, bronze, iron and marble; 13cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense, of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat; cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and bodies and souls of men.

14"They will say, 'The fruit you longed for is gone from you. All your riches and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.' 15The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn 16and cry out:
" 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
17In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!'



Ian

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

dear Ian. You should read the thread on Hislop. Phatcatholic ripped that guy apart and managed to completely discredit him. Take that filth elsewhere.

 

[thessalonian]

Saying that a relationship with Mary brings one closer to Christ is like saying that a relationship with my husband's mother can bring me closer to my husband!

:roll: If your husband deeply loves his mother and you treat her kindly and communicate well with her, that won't bring you and your husband closer together? Common Heidi. Your smarter than this. Do you suppose my relationship with a friend would continue if he badmouted my mother? Your arguement just doesn't work.

:roll:

 

[thessalonian]

[quote="Klee shay
Are you saying that we do not all exist in the SAME body of Christ who have asked Jesus to enter our lives? Is there only one Holy Spirit?[/quote]

Not sure I follow the first question. There is only one body of Christ and only one Holy Spirit.

There will certainly be those in the Kingdom of God greater than John the Baptist as Jesus foretold...but what do you make of the parable which Jesus also foretold that the first will be last and the last will be first?

If the greater is last and the last is greater, doesn't that balance out to equality in the Kingdom of God to you?

Nope. The last is FIRST. The passage you refer to is about humility and how God judges as opposed to how man judges. We place people of importance on a pedastal. It is the humble who shall be exalted. They will in fact be raised up in God's kingdom. He truly means they will be first and the first shall be last. That's not equal.

You would be right that there are different levels of GROWTH in the Spirit, but it's still only one Spirit. One sacrifice for all, one Spirit for all. The growth of any person's Spirit is according to God's Will, would you agree?

Yep.

Hence if a person is unequal in growth to what is devinely righteous, it is to serve the Lord's Will. Paul was Saul first, so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to forgive. The seeing man was blind first, so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to heal. Living Lazarus was killed first so that mankind may know the power of the Lord to raise the dead.

Amen.

I put it to you that the righteous man is on a journey of growth. He does not lose his righteousness because he fails to see what the Lord has yet to reveal.

Sanctification is not a one or a zero. Growth is related to sanctification but not equal to it. A man can grow in knowledge and understanding but be less sanctified than a man who is ignorant of some of the mysteries of God. In fact higher knowledge can be a stumbling block.

Sooner than what? If God's will is unchangeable and everything in mankind happens according to His devine Will only, then how can anyone make it come sooner than that? Your prayers to Mary on your behalf and my one's for Heidi on her behalf (according to our previous example) can only have the same effect if we are appealing to the same Holy Spirit that brings about God's Will.

Your arguements can be used against all prayer and intercessory prayer. If God's will is going to happen then why pray at all? Why ask anyone for prayer. Prayer does change the course of events but things also happen that are not God's will but the will of man. Prayer brings about the grace of God such that those whom we pray for may not have to go through some of those events, which may cause them to fall and loose faith.

But the Last Day of Judgement has not happened yet. No-one has been given their prize; no rewards have been measured. This can only come with the Kingdom of God. Heaven is where the dead wait for the Son's return. Earth is where the living wait for the Son's return. No-one has any power than the Lord. We are all servants - no-one is Master save the Lord.

Bodily resurrection has not taken place but the gift of eternal life has been realized for those in heaven. They are in Christ's prescence and see him in his glory.

And yet there are different levels of growth in the Holy Spirit where people may find reason to divide over?

Some of the division within Christianity is as you say, dividing when one is at a lower level of understanding than another. However some of it is quite clearly when one has a wrong understanding. These must be corrected and as I said the truth is knowable.



I

can say that it matters and is only up to the Lord because I follow His Will. Many different people find many different truths out of one bible,but there is only one truth and only one Spirit which can reveal it.

The truth has been revealed once for all.

I say 'reveal' because no-one just stumbles upon the knowledge of truth and stops growing. The truth is revealed and that is why many different men following the same Holy Spirit have built upon the foundation for centuries. The Kingdom is not complete and nothing is absolute until the Last day of Judgement.

There is no new revelation. We can grow in understanding of it but there is no new revelation.

The truth you follow is an interpretation just as the truth I follow is an interpretation of the one bible. The truth will be revealed by the Lord through His Holy Spirit alone.

Some of what you and I believe is compatable and truth. Some of what you and I believe contradicts and therefore one or the other or both of us cannot be said to hold the truth. The truth has been given, once for all to the saints by God. It has been carried on in oral and written teaching for 2000 years. (2 Thes 2:15).

It is no distraction at all. My relationship with Mary brings me closer to Christ.

Closer than being with Christ in the Holy Spirit?

We grow in our relationship with Christ as we come to know him better by gaining knowledge of who he is and what he had done for us. We do in fact get closer to Christ. Those who are Christians around us help us to grow closer to Christ. I grow closer to my wife by knowing her better. This is a lifelong process. Knowing God better will happen throughout eternity.

Yes we were told to pray for each other but we were also told not to idolise anything greater than God. If Heidi asked me to pray on her behalf, idolising my greater power than hers to reach God - that is unbelief in the Holy Spirit by which our salvation was secured.

Idolize? Paul tells us to consider those who have gone before us in faith and imitate what we see in them. If we are to imitate what we see in them
He says we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ. Now this implies by your definition an idolization I would say. If we are to imitate others who are further along the path of growth in the Lord the purpose can only be to correct deficiencies in our own walk. I don't call this idolization of course. I don't see it as idolization to recognize that someone is further along the path of understanding and closer in his walk to the Lord. I give glory to God for it. That is not setting them up as an idol at all.

I can understand someone going to Mary to ask her to pray to Jesus, just as I would go to someone else and ask them to pray for me - but what I am discussing is where the power lies - in the Holy Spirit. We cannot deal in the Holy Spirit while also idolising someone else's power to effect our lives. Do you agree?

Of course we agree. I've said quite clearly that Mary has no power except that she can request the grace of Christ be applied to our lives. Most certainly all power is in grace.

So you agree that they do have the same power as everyone else through the Holy Spirit?

Where we differ is that the prayers of all are not equal in fact. Some are closer to God than others. Some are at a different level in their walk with Christ. They have greater faith than others. Surely you would agree that the faith of all Christians is not equal. Faith is what matters with regard to the results of prayer. Some have faith the size of a mustard seed and can move mountains. Others have weaker faith. Those in heaven have perfected faith. This is not idolizing them but merely recognizing that the grace of God has done great work in their lives.

Blessings

 

[MrVersatile48]

dear Ian. You should read the thread on Hislop.

I did: that's why I made several posts there, 1 of which is below

Phatcatholic ripped that guy apart and managed to completely discredit him.

No: he used only smokescreen diversions to avoid the clear command of Revelation 18 to come oouta the Mystery Babylon Great Whore of Revelation 17

Take that filth elsewhere.

God's Word is pure, holy, righteous, just & true

Take your filthy false teachings elsewhere

CHRIST is the Rock on which "I will build My church"

He pointed to HIMSELF when He said that bit!!

PetrOS - (Peter's name) - means a pebble, a mere PIECE of rock

How do I know Jesus pointed to Himself next?

Because Jesus then said, 'upon this petRA - the very substance rock - I will build.."

The Bible says, 'GOD is our Rock" - as in the 1st verse of Word for Today from http://www.arcamax.com:-

I will proclaim the name of the LORD.

Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.

A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he.

Deuteronomy 32:3,4 NIV

Psalms says also that, God is my Rock..my Fortress..my Strong Tower..my Mighty Deliverer - google it @ http://www.BibleGateway.org OK?

Jesus is God in human form - John 1, Colossians 1 & Hebrews 1

Must go

God bless all who take Him at His Word!

Ian

 

[Hyfrydol]

DrVersatile...

The thread is about Mary! If you want to debate whether or not Peter is the rock, start a new thread and I'm sure myself and a few others would be glad to discuss it with you there. But it's not a fair tactic to start talking about something unrelated in the middle of another discussion. Thank you.

 

[Klee shay]

Are you saying that we do not all exist in the SAME body of Christ who have asked Jesus to enter our lives? Is there only one Holy Spirit?

Not sure I follow the first question. There is only one body of Christ and only one Holy Spirit.

To clarify my question I must go back to what it was in response to. You said:

We are not all the same.

If we are not all the same then how does that reconcile with the adoption of one Spirit - the Holy Spirit. We may all have different levels of growth in that Spirit but we are still the same. JOHN 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Nope. The last is FIRST. The passage you refer to is about humility and how God judges as opposed to how man judges. We place people of importance on a pedastal. It is the humble who shall be exalted. They will in fact be raised up in God's kingdom. He truly means they will be first and the first shall be last. That's not equal.

Can I ask why you believe it's about humility alone. If you have scriptual quotes it would help me to align with your understanding faster. Thanks. :D

Sanctification is not a one or a zero. Growth is related to sanctification but not equal to it. A man can grow in knowledge and understanding but be less sanctified than a man who is ignorant of some of the mysteries of God. In fact higher knowledge can be a stumbling block.

I agree. Should santification only come via God then? I think you would probably agree with me unanimously there so I must ask...if God did not sanctify Mary in the same way he sanctified His Son, will pursuing Mary bring us closer to the realisation God wanted us to have for His Son.

Your arguements can be used against all prayer and intercessory prayer. If God's will is going to happen then why pray at all?

I didn't suggest prayer was nullified because everything comes according to God's Will and timing. I was actually linging up the power of the Holy Spirit to do exactly what Jesus asked it to do and that was to draw us nearer to Him. Not through your prayers to Mary or me closer through a friend's prayers. If I credit something good happening in my life to a friend who prayed for me - where's God's glory? Just because my friend was a Christian and had the ability and desire to pray for me, why should their faith be creditted to the swift reply?

Shouldn't it be God's love and mercy upon his children that holds the glory? That love and mercy being shed abroad by the power of the Holy Spirit to draw us nearer.

Why ask anyone for prayer. Prayer does change the course of events but things also happen that are not God's will but the will of man. Prayer brings about the grace of God such that those whom we pray for may not have to go through some of those events, which may cause them to fall and loose faith.

Sometimes we have to fall on the cornerstone to be broken, in preference to the cornerstone falling upon us and destroying us completely. Prayer is very important so long as we pray to God in Jesus' name. I know that makes me sound like a finger pointer; I'm not trying to be...but this is what the bible teaches so this is what I must share.

Bodily resurrection has not taken place but the gift of eternal life has been realized for those in heaven. They are in Christ's prescence and see him in his glory.

I must confess to having little to no knowledge on what happens to those who are in heaven. For this reason I cannot agree nor disagree with you. I believe Christ's glory is everywhere people choose to find it. :D

However some of it is quite clearly when one has a wrong understanding. These must be corrected and as I said the truth is knowable.

Jesus was forever correcting His disciples. For this reason He will always correct us through the gift of the Holy Spirit. The truth is only as knowable as it applies to our life as we live it. Seeing what the Apostles went through should be testimony to the fact that while the truth of Jesus being the son of God is knowable - there is still so much to learn. :wink:

I can say that it matters and is only up to the Lord because I follow His Will. Many different people find many different truths out of one bible,but there is only one truth and only one Spirit which can reveal it.

The truth has been revealed once for all.

Are you agreeing with me? Sorry I wasn't quite sure of the context you were using. :

There is no new revelation. We can grow in understanding of it but there is no new revelation.

What do you mean by revelation? I thought people had revelations all the time - but for them its a new revelation because its something they haven't experienced.

Some of what you and I believe is compatable and truth. Some of what you and I believe contradicts and therefore one or the other or both of us cannot be said to hold the truth. The truth has been given, once for all to the saints by God. It has been carried on in oral and written teaching for 2000 years. (2 Thes 2:15).

Yes but its how we interpret the truth and how that truth is revealed in our lives. If everything is theory and no practice then how are we to discern the truth in application?

It is no distraction at all. My relationship with Mary brings me closer to Christ.

Closer than being with Christ in the Holy Spirit?

We grow in our relationship with Christ as we come to know him better by gaining knowledge of who he is and what he had done for us. We do in fact get closer to Christ. Those who are Christians around us help us to grow closer to Christ. I grow closer to my wife by knowing her better. This is a lifelong process. Knowing God better will happen throughout eternity.

I 100% agree with your sentiments here and I'm glad to see such wonderful revalations being shared between brethren. These were truly enlightened words, praise God.

I must question its relevance to getting closer to Christ through the association of Mary however. You were so inspired above; it was a joy to read, but it has nothing to do with Mary bringing you closer to Christ.

If she comforts you in the way Jesus asked us to comfort one another, I think that's beautiful. If she becomes the means to associate with Christ however, that's misguided. Just if I was to see Pauls' Gospel of Christ as my means to associate with Jesus; that would be misguided too. Jesus is the means of my association with Jesus. Paul, Mary, my friends and other Christians are a great way to find fellowship and comfort but there is only one thing I can seek to deepen my relationship with God; and that is through the Holy Spirit which came after Jesus returned to the Father.

Idolize? Paul tells us to consider those who have gone before us in faith and imitate what we see in them. If we are to imitate what we see in them
He says we are to imitate him as he imitates Christ. Now this implies by your definition an idolization I would say. If we are to imitate others who are further along the path of growth in the Lord the purpose can only be to correct deficiencies in our own walk.

Imitation can lead to idolisation though. The Jews fell into this trap. By imitating the will of God through the commands given to Moses, they lost the ability to see God in His Son. Some would say that imitating some religious leaders (like those of a cultish nature) can be detrimental as well.

Imitation is only as good as the intensions of using it for. If imitation is meant to gain power and control, then it become idolisation. Peter fell into this trap no less. He idolised being a faithful servant but even he denied the Lord when the time came. This in itself was not an unforgiveable sin. Jesus gave Peter the chance to repent and he did. If he hadn't of repented however, the story would've had a totally different ending wouldn't you think?

Idolising imitation as being a means to holiness denies the relationship believers can have with Christ directly. I know everyone has to start somewhere but it shouldn't be where it ends.

I don't see it as idolization to recognize that someone is further along the path of understanding and closer in his walk to the Lord. I give glory to God for it. That is not setting them up as an idol at all.

I can see you giving glory to God in many ways. Please do not think I am finger pointing. It's difficult to debate issues without tying someone's else's beliefs into the discussion.

Of course we agree. I've said quite clearly that Mary has no power except that she can request the grace of Christ be applied to our lives. Most certainly all power is in grace.

We seem to always get stuck on this point. You pray to Mary to obtain the Lord's grace and I pray to God in the name of Jesus to obtain the Lord's grace. Which is the means Jesus asked his disciples to pray?

Where we differ is that the prayers of all are not equal in fact.

I believe they are equal but how they are answered depends on what the Lord wants for us.

Surely you would agree that the faith of all Christians is not equal. Faith is what matters with regard to the results of prayer.

If I may use your example...faith is what matters with regard to the results of prayer...and yet whom do you pray to? Does your faith in the Lord's grace reap the results of prayer or does Mary's faith? If Mary's prayers for you are indeed stronger than yours' then where does that leave your faith?

Some have faith the size of a mustard seed and can move mountains. Others have weaker faith. Those in heaven have perfected faith. This is not idolizing them but merely recognizing that the grace of God has done great work in their lives.

Friend if it wasn't for the examples before us where would we be? Yes, God has done many great works in different people's lives. Mary being a very exceptional and magnificent case. I like how God didn't use her as a simple birthing machine and then dispence of her. He genuinely shows His tenderness as a loving God in how he dealt with Mary, and she genuinely showed her loving nature in giving a perfect son to the world and ultimately obeying God's will for Him.

Thess, I'm a woman and I think Mary is just the bees knees who has earned the right to be called blessed of all women. I don't know if any ordinary woman could have done what she did. Praise God for his work in Mary. So in this I think we certainly agree.

I hope you understand that my words are not against Mary and the love she has for God and Her Son. I only wish to point to Jesus through the Spirit and say if you can see great works in Mary then believe Jesus will do great works through you because HE loves you and HE desires to be with you. Not through his mother but through the sacrifice God deemed worthy for you.

I'm not going to use my words as a weapon to bludgeon your faith with though, so make your choice according to God's good will and not mine.

Blessings to you too friend. :D

 

[Jenesis]

Heidi,

Don't worry, I agree with you about the whole Mary issue.

Catholics find it necessary to give credit to Mary being the mother of God, just because God used her to give birth to the human form of Jesus. And because Jesus is God, well then, Mary is the mother of the Trinity! Right... :roll:

It is blasphemous to say that God the Father is married or has a mother. God is God...he is the first, the last, alpha and omega. Mary was born just like I was born. Sure, she was "favored" in God's eyes, but so are you! If Jesus was to have been born in this century, you could've been his mother as well! There's no difference between Mary and you. Sure, she was a nice gal and obedient enough to let the Holy Spirit impregnate her and all, but that's about all she really did. As far as having stronger prayers than we do...eh?? If Mary was so great, why did Jesus refer to her as "woman" when he was dying on the cross?? Would you call your mother "woman"?? Kinda disrespectful, isn't it?

Catholics are apparently afraid to go straight to God the Father. Or Jesus for that matter. How dare I say that, you ask? Well look at what they do...the Pope is "Jesus on earth", catholics confess to a priest, they pray to Mary, they pray to the "saints", and most of the time the priest tells them what the bible says and half of the Catholics I've spoken to don't even know half of what the bible even says. It's all ceremonial, works, and then confessing if you've done something "wrong". Their motto should be "Be a Catholic! You'll get a license to sin! woohoo!"

And how do they believe they get to heaven you might ask? Well, according to those who I've spoken with, as long as you were baptized as a baby, confirmed, you confess, you pray your hail Mary's and live as a "good person," you'll go to heaven.

How then are Catholics Scripturally in line? I wouldn't say so!

Have you ever heard a Catholic use the word grace before? I sure haven't.

We are saved by grace, and that's it. I don't care what you've done, what you've said, God loves you, Jesus died for you, and no one or nothing can change that. Mary has nothing to do with Christ's sacrifice whatsoever. God doesn't need her help in answering his children's prayers, He's God! If you're a Christian, then Christ lives in you. Why then would you need to pray to a saint or Mary for that matter? HE'S LIVING IN YOU! That's as close as it gets! If he can't hear your prayers then, we've got a serious problem!


Alright, I'm done with my Catholic rant.

No need to lynch me, it's only my second post lol.

Jen

 

[CatholicXian]

Jenesis...

Perhaps you should've read the whole thread. Especially since your post is littered with many misunderstandings that have already been addressed.

Mary is NOT the Mother of the Trinity. She is the Mother of Jesus Christ (and not merely His human form-- you cannot separate His humanity and divinity, except in theory. Christ is ONE). Jesus is God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Son.

I don't know where you got the nonesense about marriage... Mary was married to Joseph. That's pretty clear.

So, if it is your contention that Jesus was being disrespectful in calling Mary "woman"... are you claiming He who is without sin broke a Commendment? (i.e., "honor your father and mother") "Woman" was not disrespectful in any sense coming from the mouth of Christ.

Have I ever heard a Catholic say "grace"... if you're claiming we pray "Hail, Mary"s all the time they Catholics are probably saying "grace" more than most people... "Hail Mary, full of GRACE..." ... the Sacraments (like Baptism, etc.) are effacious only because they bestow GRACE on the person... we confess our sins because we have fallen from GRACE, and are in need of God's saving and forgiving GRACE. Oh, and saying "GRACE" before meals? "Bless us O Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to receive from Thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen." is the basic Catholic prayer for saying "GRACE" before meals.

...that's all I'll point out for now.

 

[thessalonian]

Jenesis,

Catholics find it necessary to give credit to Mary being the mother of God, just because God used her to give birth to the human form of Jesus. And because Jesus is God, well then, Mary is the mother of the Trinity! Right... :roll:

Nope, she is not mother of the trinity. If you want to add to Catholic doctrine that is not going to convince any Catholic here of anything except that you don't know what Catholicism teaches and need to be corrected. hope you don't mind me doing so, since I am Catholic and have studied Catholicism far more than you, not to brage. Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is God and she did not just bring his humanity in to the world but also his divinity. Are you denying that God passed through Mary's birth canal if I can put it discretely. Was he God in the womb? I would hope you would agree he was. There is nothing more to the Catholic doctrine than that.

It is blasphemous to say that God the Father is married or has a mother. God is God...

Find a Catholic who says God has a mother. It is said from time to time that Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit caused her to concieve, but once again don't go beyond he Catholic doctrine. It's purpose is not that there was some sort of wedding cerimony in heaven and Mary pre-existed. It is in a figurative sense.

he is the first, the last, alpha and omega. Mary was born just like I was born. Sure, she was "favored" in God's eyes, but so are you!

You would dare say that you are as favored as the woman who gave birth to the Son of God and watched him grow and learn and play. Saw how he treated others. Children are a blessing correct? Could any child be a blessing equal to the child that was/is the God of the universe. This talk is not good. I hope you will show some humility here and retract your statement. God, through the angel told her "blessed are you AMONG WOMEN". Do the scriptures call you "highly favored" or a better translation "full of grace"?

If Jesus was to have been born in this century, you could've been his mother as well! There's no difference between Mary and you. Sure, she was a nice gal and obedient enough to let the Holy Spirit impregnate her and all, but that's about all she really did. As far as having stronger prayers than we do...eh??

Mary was chosen by God, you were not. Have you ever read her canticle. It doesn't sound like it. What does "blessed among woman" mean if it does not mean she is more blessed than others.

If Mary was so great, why did Jesus refer to her as "woman" when he was dying on the cross?? Would you call your mother "woman"?? Kinda disrespectful, isn't it?

You honestly think Jesus was disrespecting his mother. That he violated his own command "honor your father and mother". It truly saddens me when people do things like this. The fact of the matter is that Jewish culture and idoms are different than ours. This was not a slight on Mary. Is it a slight when Isaiha says "a woman shall concieve and bear a son"? No I don't think so and I think it more likely that in the 3-4 cases that Mary was called "woman" by Jesus it was in that light rather than our negative english idiom. Also reflecting back on Genesis 3:15 and the woman giving birth to the savior.

Catholics are apparently afraid to go straight to God the Father.

We are? Ever heard of the prayer "The Our Father". I say it all the time. The Catechism completely expounds upon it and it is highly encouraged. Not to mention the whole Mass is considered a prayer, the greatest prayer of the Church, to the Father.

Or Jesus for that matter. How dare I say that, you ask?

Every heard of the chaplet of divine mercy? Another prayer "o my jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of the mercy.". Many other Catholic prayers to Jesus and every night I pray directly to Jesus with my children.

Well look at what they do...the Pope is "Jesus on earth",
catholics confess to a priest, they pray to Mary, they pray to the "saints", and most of the time the priest tells them what the bible says and half of the Catholics I've spoken to don't even know half of what the bible even says. It's all ceremonial, works, and then confessing if you've done something "wrong". Their motto should be "Be a Catholic! You'll get a license to sin! woohoo!"

This paragraph is pure nonsense. Prejudice. I hate to go further. It is very sad that people form ideas such as this in their mind. Ever heard the scripture "he who hears you hears me". It is in the context in which we veiw the pope. I hate to tell you but half or more of the protestants I know don't know the Bible very well either. License to sin? This is funny? You have no clue what Catholicism is about. I could say that of those who believe OSAS. Some I know are that way but I won't broad brush in the manner that you do.

And how do they believe they get to heaven you might ask? Well, according to those who I've spoken with, as long as you were baptized as a baby, confirmed, you confess, you pray your hail Mary's and live as a "good person," you'll go to heaven.

sad. very sad. Stick around and I will tell you how the Catholic Church teaches that we are saved.

How then are Catholics Scripturally in line? I wouldn't say so!

100% The problem is they are not in line with your personal interpretation. But that's a personal problem. :roll:

Have you ever heard a Catholic use the word grace before? I sure haven't.

Do me a favor. There is a search function at the top of the board. Click on it and put in thessalonian for the member name and grace. Tell me if I ever talk about grace. You can go to a thread by AV and one by ChristineES also from today and see a writeup where I talk about grace. I also challenge you to go to any catholic website and search for the word grace. Or pull up a searchable catechism and search for grace. I can send you a link to any of these. It is sad what you are posting. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

We are saved by grace, and that's it. I don't care what you've done, what you've said, God loves you, Jesus died for you, and no one or nothing can change that.

Amen.

Mary has nothing to do with Christ's sacrifice whatsoever. God doesn't need her help in answering his children's prayers, He's God! If you're a Christian, then Christ lives in you. Why then would you need to pray to a saint or Mary for that matter? HE'S LIVING IN YOU! That's as close as it gets! If he can't hear your prayers then, we've got a serious problem!

Do you ask others for prayer? Why if you can go straight to him.

Alright, I'm done with my Catholic rant.
No need to lynch me, it's only my second post lol.

I'll cut you some slack since you have a demonstrated ignorance of Catholicism. Hopefully you will be humble enough to accept some correction along the way by those of us who actually know what the Catholic Church teaches. I look forward to future conversations.

Blessings

 

[Jenesis]

I was going to be all methodical by replying to every comment you had, but I won't bother...I'll just say what I gotta say in one swoop.

I apologize that I came across not understanding Catholicism.

I just have one question for you:

Why do you think I think like this? Why do other people think like this? What is it the Catholic church has done to give us these ideas? We obviously didn't pull them out of thin air...so how did I come up with my "accusations?"

By the way, when I spoke of Grace, I wasn't talking about saying grace before you eat your Big Mac. Nor was I talking about how the Bible said that Mary was "full of grace". I was talking about grace as the free gift of God to those who accept his Son as a sacrifice for their sins, in turn, becoming Christians and going to heaven when they die.

I sure am happy for you that you've studied Catholicism more than I have, I'm sure you're very proud.

I agree that Jesus was still God in Mary's womb, but that didn't make her holy or divine. She was a sinner just like the next person. The only perfect person who ever lived was Jesus, if you say anyone else was, then that is blasphemy.

When I was talking to Heidi and said that she was as favored as Mary was, I didn't mean that God could've chosen her over Mary. What I'm saying is that God loves all his children equally, Mary being one of them. Yes, he used her in a mighty way, but anything bigger than that isn't true.

I wasn't talking about me being chosen at all. Heck, I'm glad I wasn't chosen! I would've botched it all up. Besides, it wasn't just Mary that made God choose to send Christ down at the time, there were other things to take into account. The time of history, the race of people, what was going on at that time, etc. etc. etc.

So if you always say the Our Father prayer, why is it you say that a couple times then 50 hail mary's? Doesn't that sound like, to an outsider, that you're favoring Mary over God?

About your divine mercy thing...why is it you say "our sins" and "us from the fires of hell" and "all souls to heaven"....why aren't you speaking on your own behalf? Is it impossible for a child to speak one on one with his or her Father?

I'll comment more later.

J

 

[thessalonian]

I was going to be all methodical by replying to every comment you had, but I won't bother...I'll just say what I gotta say in one swoop.

I apologize that I came across not understanding Catholicism.

Your forgiven for not understanding Catholicism.

[quote:d4381]
I just have one question for you:

Why do you think I think like this? Why do other people think like this? What is it the Catholic church has done to give us these ideas? We obviously didn't pull them out of thin air...so how did I come up with my "accusations?"

Because Protestants amongst themselves pass around the same books with the same accusations and speak to themselves about the same things regarding Catholicism and preach them from the pulpit (I've heard it myself) and pass them around from one to another like that same old Christmass fruitcake. Lorainne Boetner's book has been around for years and you can find the same mistakes that he made all over the internet. This all is a sort of "tradition" that protestants have regarding Catholicism. I heard it all from my wife and mother-in-law and many protestant friends. The same stuff over and over. But it was not what I was taught and I read the documents of the Church and it's simply not in them.

[quote:d4381]By the way, when I spoke of Grace, I wasn't talking about saying grace before you eat your Big Mac. Nor was I talking about how the Bible said that Mary was "full of grace". I was talking about grace as the free gift of God to those who accept his Son as a sacrifice for their sins, in turn, becoming Christians and going to heaven when they die.

Quite apparently you did not do the searches that I asked you to do and so continue to speak without knowing. Catholicism says we are saved by grace alone and no it is not talking about a bedtime prayer.

I sure am happy for you that you've studied Catholicism more than I have, I'm sure you're very proud.

It's not a matter of pride at all. It is simply a matter of fact. I've been a Catholic for 46 years. You should not be offended or defensive that I know a thing or two more about it. Evidently I offended you with my post. I do not mean to be condescending at all. It is just quite apparent that you have learned your Catholicism from the school of anti-catholicism. You have not read Church teaching but have taken your teaching from people who hate the Catholic Church. It's like getting your info on George Bush from a democrat.

I agree that Jesus was still God in Mary's womb, but that didn't make her holy or divine. She was a sinner just like the next person. The only perfect person who ever lived was Jesus, if you say anyone else was, then that is blasphemy.

We don't believe that Mary was divine. With regard to her being a sinner or not there are threads on that you can read. But, while God is sinless, for a created being to be sinless does not make them divine. Are the angels divine? You do believe in them don't you? Were Adam and Eve divine before the fall? A sinless human being would not make the human being divine. Angels are perfect. It is not blasphemy at all to say something or someone besides Christ could be perfect. Do you believe God cannot create a perfect thing or human? Adam and Eve WERE in fact perfect in the garden. Do you think it blasphemy to say that? The Ark of the Covenant was said to be exceedingly pure. (interestingly enough Luke 1 parrellels Mary with the Ark of the Covenant in 2 Sam 6. I'll have to show you some time.).

When I was talking to Heidi and said that she was as favored as Mary was, I didn't mean that God could've chosen her over Mary. What I'm saying is that God loves all his children equally, Mary being one of them. Yes, he used her in a mighty way, but anything bigger than that isn't true.

What do you mean by bigger?

I wasn't talking about me being chosen at all. Heck, I'm glad I wasn't chosen! I would've botched it all up. Besides, it wasn't just Mary that made God choose to send Christ down at the time, there were other things to take into account. The time of history, the race of people, what was going on at that time, etc. etc. etc.

We are in agreement. The time was right and Mary was the chosen vessal. God had done great things for her!

So if you always say the Our Father prayer, why is it you say that a couple times then 50 hail mary's? Doesn't that sound like, to an outsider, that you're favoring Mary over God?

From an outsiders view I can see why you would say that. But what you do not realize that the rosary, of which you speak is actually about the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. As we say the Hail Mary's we reflect on Christ's birth, his life, his passion, and his resurrection. We meditate on the scriptures. The rosary is simply a form of meditative prayer.

About your divine mercy thing...why is it you say "our sins" and "us from the fires of hell" and "all souls to heaven"....why aren't you speaking on your own behalf? Is it impossible for a child to speak one on one with his or her Father?

You do pray for yourself and others? Why the problem with us doing that. There is no prohibition in Catholicism in any way of speaking one on one with the father. Nor is there any prohibition against asking anyone in the body of Christ (including those in heaven, for nothing can separate anyone from the love of God), to pray for us.

I'll comment more later.

[/quote:d4381][/quote:d4381]

I look forward to more discussion though I may not be able to respond till sometime later tommorrow or Saturday.

Blessings

 

[Jenesis]

Hi there,

I got your message Thess. Life has been ... well ... weird lately. I currently post on another forum that isn't as involved as this one, so I've kinda been neglecting this one a little. Maybe when I have more time and patience I can read everything and post a little more than I have.

I do look forward to future discussions.

Cheers!

Jen