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No God, No morals

Oats

Member
I am sick of us referring to God as a possibility and not an absolute truth

any how

In another thread Jason Cran said it is possible to have a moral basis without a standard such a our Lord God


sheesh, do we have to assume the athiest doesnt have a sense of right or wrong?

while i do believe that the the lord defines what is right or wrong.

but to assume that the athiest/agnostic doesnt care about fellow men is wrong and(i used to make this mistake)

yes there are greedy ,cold hearted athiests and so called christians do the same.


I challenge anyone to provide a reason to be moralistic without using morals as a basis

It is impossible
 
i take that challenge

the jews if they follow the law do this

can they make it to heaven by it no?

but neithe will we but that doesnt mean that some cant try and be a very moral person(i speak from expercience)

when i was a jw and a die hard one

i didnt lie
i didnt steal
i didnt have sex outside of marriage
i didnt adulerate

sure i was inperfect and that was the whole i idea of the law

and i honored my parents
i love the lord as i thought i know him(key words)



i wasnt on my way to heaven, nope but if you know me as a teen i wasnt so murderer etc.

just a jw and so on.

i didnt cuss then either

that all changed when i joined the army.

oats surely you agree that the law following jew has the same standard of living we do.save the diet parts

the ten commandments are the same.
 
i take that challenge

the jews if they follow the law do this

can they make it to heaven by it no?

but neithe will we but that doesnt mean that some cant try and be a very moral person(i speak from expercience)

when i was a jw and a die hard one

i didnt lie
i didnt steal
i didnt have sex outside of marriage
i didnt adulerate

sure i was inperfect and that was the whole i idea of the law

and i honored my parents
i love the lord as i thought i know him(key words)



i wasnt on my way to heaven, nope but if you know me as a teen i wasnt so murderer etc.

just a jw and so on.

i didnt cuss then either

that all changed when i joined the army.

oats surely you agree that the law following jew has the same standard of living we do.save the diet parts

the ten commandments are the same.

honest to goodness, i don't understand this post.


God is the one who sets the standard for right and wrong

without God you can't tell someone to care about someone else
 
honest to goodness, i don't understand this post.


God is the one who sets the standard for right and wrong

without God you can't tell someone to care about someone else

really?

what part of the ten commandment dont the jews/jws dont have?

they are the same btw.

shall i pull them up for you.

i was told by the kingdom hall that you must follow these as they would please God!
 
really?

what part of the ten commandment dont the jews/jws dont have?

they are the same btw.

shall i pull them up for you.

i was told by the kingdom hall that you must follow these as they would please God!

people can attempt and will fail at following the moral law

Christians and Non Christians will both fail


Only Jesus followed the moral law perfectly

read the post or don't respond

-----

yes there is a moral law and atheist can believe in it

my point is that they can't hold anyone else to it without using the moral law itself as a basis


there is no reason to call something right or wrong outside of the moral law

So therefore the moral law needs a basis or a standard which can only be God
 
people can attempt and will fail at following the moral law

Christians and Non Christians will both fail


Only Jesus followed the moral law perfectly

read the post or don't respond

-----

yes there is a moral law and atheist can believe in it

my point is that they can't hold anyone else to it without using the moral law itself as a basis


there is no reason to call something right or wrong outside of the moral law

So therefore the moral law needs a basis or a standard which can only be God

or some universal standard.

yes i agree with that standard.they have a standard that they follow or make one up

humanism is the best example of that

you seem to come across here that all athiests are so wicked that they cant do any good

that is why i wanted to clarify.
 
or some universal standard.

yes i agree with that standard.they have a standard that they follow or make one up

humanism is the best example of that

you seem to come across here that all athiests are so wicked that they cant do any good

that is why i wanted to clarify.

yeah but i never in one of my post said atheist were wicked ,did I?

I am not aware of any Universal standard....
 
yeah but i never in one of my post said atheist were wicked ,did I?

I am not aware of any Universal standard....

No God, no morals

hard not to take that any other way.meaning that they dont have any?

yes universal standard

google the humanist manifesto?

and also the secular humanist

its what a lot of athiest go by here.
 
No God, no morals

hard not to take that any other way.meaning that they dont have any?

yes universal standard

google the humanist manifesto?

and also the secular humanist

its what a lot of athiest go by here.

they cannot justify the moral law without using morality as a basis

it is circular logic


men ought to be good
 
they cannot justify the moral law without using morality as a basis

it is circular logic


men ought to be good

you mean as we(christians) and or God defines good.

that would be alot more defensible if you stated that.

if you said this

athiests are incapable of meeting the standard of Good set forth by the bible as they dont believe the commands given by the bible fully.
 
It is really very simple. What we call "morality" is basically an emergent property of any species that is social. We have a defined set of living standards, later put into laws, that govern how social species must act for the good of the whole. Some are antisocial and they are put away from the rest in order to maintain that special society.

What Hammarabi, and eventually some of the Old Testament laws, did was codify them. But "morality" is a process that we created.

The same can be seen in many animal species [of the social type]. Cooperation must be maintained or the whole thing breaks down and starvation/extinction is the result.
 
you mean as we(christians) and or God defines good.

that would be alot more defensible if you stated that.

if you said this

athiests are incapable of meeting the standard of Good set forth by the bible as they dont believe the commands given by the bible fully.

what?

no one upholds the moral law


dude close this thread because i don't think you understand what i am saying


do some reading of apologetics

C.S. Lewis namely


you approach me often, as if you know i am wrong and you're right

because i am a little black boy from the hood

you better had come correct
 
race again, that has nothing to do with this at all.

seldom have i hated persons cause of race.

you claimed by title no God, no morals

then went on to say that athiests arent wicked.

by definition they must be as God is the standard.

that is the logical conclusion.

all that dont know him are wicked but that doesnt mean wicked as in all evil there are shades of evil persons and wickedness.

some are so close to heaven that they wont even bother to come to the lord as they dont break the laws or sin but are self-righteous and live pretty clean.

i met those..
 
race again, that has nothing to do with this at all.

seldom have i hated persons cause of race.

you claimed by title no God, no morals

then went on to say that athiests arent wicked.

by definition they must be as God is the standard.

that is the logical conclusion.

all that dont know him are wicked but that doesnt mean wicked as in all evil there are shades of evil persons and wickedness.

some are so close to heaven that they wont even bother to come to the lord as they dont break the laws or sin but are self-righteous and live pretty clean.

i met those..

everyone sins

hey i have to end this i got into a bad argument with my mom

i'm too upset to talk this through
 
everyone sins

hey i have to end this i got into a bad argument with my mom

i'm too upset to talk this through

well i am at fault here as well.

i had a general idea of what your posting and wasnt the clearest in my responses.
why i do that at times i havent a clue.
 
It is really very simple. What we call "morality" is basically an emergent property of any species that is social. We have a defined set of living standards, later put into laws, that govern how social species must act for the good of the whole. Some are antisocial and they are put away from the rest in order to maintain that special society.

What Hammarabi, and eventually some of the Old Testament laws, did was codify them. But "morality" is a process that we created.

The same can be seen in many animal species [of the social type]. Cooperation must be maintained or the whole thing breaks down and starvation/extinction is the result.

C.S. Lewis

This law was called the Law of Nature because people thought that every
one knew it by nature and did not need to be taught it. They did not mean,
of course, that you might not find an odd individual here and there who did
not know it, just as you find a few people who are colour-blind or have no
ear for a tune. But taking the race as a whole, they thought that the human
idea of decent behaviour was obvious to every one. And I believe they were
right. If they were not, then all the things we said about the war were
nonsense. What was the sense in saying the enemy were in the wrong unless
Right is a real thing which the Nazis at bottom knew as well as we did and
ought to have practised? If they had had no notion of what we mean by right,
then, though we might still have had to fight them, we could no more have
blamed them for that than for the colour of their hair.
I know that some people say the idea of a Law of Nature or decent
behaviour known to all men is unsound, because different civilisations and
different ages have had quite different moralities.
But this is not true. There have been differences between their
moralities, but these have never amounted to anything like a total
difference. If anyone will take the trouble to compare the moral teaching
of, say, the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians, Hindus, Chinese, Greeks and
Romans, what will really strike him will be how very like they are to each
other and to our own. Some of the evidence for this I have put together in
the appendix of another book called The Abolition of Man; but for our
present purpose I need only ask the reader to think what a totally different
morality would mean. Think of a country where people were admired for
running away in battle, or where a man felt proud of double-crossing all the
people who had been kindest to him. You might just as well try to imagine a
country where two and two made five. Men have differed as regards what
people you ought to be unselfish to-whether it was only your own family, or
your fellow countrymen, or everyone. But they have always agreed that you
ought not to put yourself first. Selfishness has never been admired. Men
have differed as to whether you should have one wife or four. But they have
always agreed that you must not simply have any woman you liked.
But the most remarkable thing is this. Whenever you find a man who says
he does not believe in a real Right and Wrong, you will find the same man
going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if
you try breaking one to him he will be complaining "It's not fair" before
you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter, but
then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying that the particular
treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter,
and if there is no such thing as Right and Wrong- in other words, if there
is no Law of Nature-what is the difference between a fair treaty and an
unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that,
whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?
It seems, then, we are forced to believe in a real Right and Wrong.
People may be sometimes mistaken about them, just as people sometimes get
their sums wrong; but they are not a matter of mere taste and opinion any
more than the multiplication table. Now if we are agreed about that, I go on
to my next point, which is this. None of us are really keeping the Law of
Nature. If there are any exceptions among you, I apologise to them. They had
much better read some other work, for nothing I am going to say concerns
them. And now, turning to the ordinary human beings who are left:
I hope you will not misunderstand what I am going to say. I am not
preaching, and Heaven knows I do not pretend to be better than anyone else.
I am only trying to call attention to a fact; the fact that this year, or
this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise
ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people. There may be
all sorts of excuses for us. That time you were so unfair to the children
was when you were very tired. That slightly shady business about the
money-the one you have almost forgotten-came when you were very hard up. And
what you promised to do for old So-and-so and have never done-well, you
never would have promised if you had known how frightfully busy you were
going to be. And as for your behaviour to your wife (or husband) or sister
(or brother) if I knew how irritating they could be, I would not wonder at
it-and who the dickens am I, anyway? I am just the same. That is to say, I
do not succeed in keeping the Law of Nature very well, and the moment anyone
tells me I am not keeping it, there starts up in my mind a string of excuses
as long as your arm. The question at the moment is not whether they are good
excuses. The point is that they are one more proof of how deeply, whether we
like it or not, we believe in the Law of Nature. If we do not believe in
decent behaviour, why should we be so anxious to make excuses for not having
behaved decently? The truth is, we believe in decency so much-we feel the
Rule or Law pressing on us so- that we cannot bear to face the fact that we
are breaking it, and consequently we try to shift the responsibility. For
you notice that it is only for our bad behaviour that we find all these
explanations. It is only our bad temper that we put down to being tired or
worried or hungry; we put our good temper down to ourselves.
These, then, are the two points I wanted to make. First, that human
beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave
in a certain way, and cannot really get rid of it. Secondly, that they do
not in fact behave in that way. They know the Law of Nature; they break it.
These two facts are the foundation of all clear thinking about ourselves and
the universe we live in.

.....
 
if someone gave a better explanation than me you wont listen

when i give you my explanation you are bone headed

so you can either read it or clam up

You seem to be very angry Oats. What's up? I siimply asked you to give me your take on what C.S. Lewis was saying and you attack?

Regardless, C.S. Lewis is an author, not a sociologist or anthropologist.
 
You seem to be very angry Oats. What's up? I siimply asked you to give me your take on what C.S. Lewis was saying and you attack?

Regardless, C.S. Lewis is an author, not a sociologist or anthropologist.

because one time not to long ago you said you couldn't find answers in a book


C.S. Lewis , give him more credit

He knows more than you
 
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