Bible Study No Law, No Sin, No Salvation !

[Jay T]

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

Why doesn't the modern Christian world, accept this Bible verse ?

Is it because they do not understand how Salvation works ?

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus said He was the fulfillment of the Law.

Mat 5:17 "Do not suppose that I came to tear down [fig., abolish] the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to tear down but to fulfill.

 

[Jay T]

Jesus said He was the fulfillment of the Law.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
15:11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Mat 5:17 "Do not suppose that I came to tear down [fig., abolish] the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to tear down but to fulfill.

Yes, Jesus kept the commandments as an example for us to follow....as it is one of the requirements for getting into heaven......
Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

You do believe that Jesus understands how a person gets into heaven don't you ?

 

[Georges]

Jesus said He was the fulfillment of the Law.

Mat 5:17 "Do not suppose that I came to tear down [fig., abolish] the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to tear down but to fulfill.

Christine...you fell for the lie...fulfill doesn't mean end......and Jesus won't fulfill it completely until the reign of his second coming...the messianic kingdom....


Christine...don't be a dupe....don't fall for the "fulfilled at the cross" deception.

 

[ChristineES]

I never said they were ended, you are the ones who insinuated that one. Jesus said that the not one letter of the law would be abolished. (I read the Bible, too, you know)

Jesus said that all the law could be tied into these two commandments:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, & strenghth and Love your neighbor as yourself.

With regards to the Law; Do you all follow the whole Law? That includes circumcising your baby boys at 8 days old, putting women out of the village when she has her period, having to be cleansed if you touch a dead body, do you eat rabbit, pork, lobster and shrimp, and so on?
I even know plenty of Jews who eat pork chops and love shrimp.
Is it even possible to follow the Law, the Whole Law?

What about Jesus two commandments? It is easy to love God, since he loves us. But what about your neighbors? It is easy to love those who love you, but not all your neighbors love you and that would be more difficult. The thing is that you are commanded to love ALL your neighbors, even the ones who are your enemies! (an enemy is not someone you want to kill, but someone who wants to kill you). Do you think it is even possible to love those who HATE you?

 

[cyberjosh]

"Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. "
(Romans 13:8-10)

 

[Atonement]

Jay T Wrote:

Psalms 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.

Why doesn't the modern Christian world, accept this Bible verse ?

Is it because they do not understand how Salvation works ?

Jay T, Man I'm hungry, don't stop there Jay T untill you tell me how salvation works.. Feed my hunger? Do the commandments of God right? Okay Jay T. What Law is the most important of all the laws? And if I keep that most important law am I saved.. Better yet if I keep all the laws am I saved??

 

[Jay T]

Jay T Wrote:



Jay T, Man I'm hungry, don't stop there Jay T untill you tell me how salvation works.. Feed my hunger?

I have been, ever since I've been here.

Do the commandments of God right?

The Commandments of God IS RIGHTEOUSNESS (Psalms 119:172).

Okay Jay T. What Law is the most important of all the laws?[/quote]Answer: No one law of God's is more important than another one....they are of equal value.

If there is one more important than the others, it would be the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) , as it reveals God as the creator, and ReCreator, in the Born-again experience.
As God set up the 4th commandment as a 'sign' of the relationship between HIMSELF and the Believer (Ezekiel 20:12,20).

Every Bible writer understood that fact, and has kept the 7th day sabbath as a result.

James 2:10-12 tells us that, 'to break just one of the commandments, is to break them all'.

And if I keep that most important law am I saved..

NO ONE can keep the commandments of God, without Jesus Christ working HIS will, in their lives.
The whole purpose of the commandments is to push a person towards Jesus Christ....Because when a person sees that they cannot keep the commandments of God, as they are to be kept, they will go to Jesus asking for HELP....in obeying HIS will, in living a sinless life, which is a requirement, to getting into heaven.......
19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jesus Christ UNDERSTOOD.....hown the commandments of God work in the Plan of Salvation.

Better yet if I keep all the laws am I saved??

Keeping all the commandments of God, is proof....that a person is saved....just as the BIBLE SAYS !

From Genesis to Revelation is revealed God's plan to bring mankind BACK....into harmony with HIS will of keeping the commandments.......
Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.


The commandments of God, is what God is going to use in the Judgment Day of God (Ecclesiates 12:13,14 & James 2:10-12).

 

[Atonement]

I have little to rebuttal.

Keeping all the commandments of God, is proof....that a person is saved....just as the BIBLE SAYS !

I disagree, by good works shows the heart of man. Keeping the law is impossible. Nor shall a Christian be judged under the law, because its been covered by the Blood of Jesus. I agree the law is to show mankind that they are sinners and need Jesus as Lord. Very true statement Jay T. But the Law or keeping the Law will in no how keep me in salvation or even obtain salvation. Its all about having the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

 

[Jay T]

I have little to rebuttal.



I disagree, by good works shows the heart of man. Keeping the law is impossible.

Yes, it is impossible, to the person who rejects Jesus Christ's words !

Jesus Christ has ...repeatedly said: 'Keep the commandments'.

WHY don't you believe Jesus Christ ?

WHY don't you believe that what Christ says to do, that HE is able to accomplish it in your life ?

Nor shall a Christian be judged under the law, because its been covered by the Blood of Jesus.

Christ's death on the cross was solely for the purpose of allowing a person to be forgiven of their 'past' sins (Romans 3:25).
BUT.....it is the life a Christian lives ....AFTER....that forgiveness of past sins, which determines whether a person gets into heaven or not !

OSAS....is not Biblical....as the Bible clearly shows that a person's name....CAN BE TAKEN OUT....of the Book of Life.

I agree the law is to show mankind that they are sinners and need Jesus as Lord. Very true statement Jay T. But the Law or keeping the Law will in no how keep me in salvation or even obtain salvation.

There is no such thing as Salvation while continuing to sin !

When Jesus said: 'go and sin no more' (John 5:14 & 8:11).....Jesus Christ, KNEW what HE was talking about.

Its all about having the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

YES....and those who keep the commandments....have Jesus Christ in their lives......
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[Georges]

I have little to rebuttal.



I disagree, by good works shows the heart of man.

I agree with you statement....good works do show motivation.

Keeping the law is impossible.

Keeping 100% of the Law 100% of the time may be impossible. God knows that and that is why he gave several different modes of atonement in the OT...most of them bloodless. Atonement, consider this....it is the intent of keeping His commandments that God expects. Does man fall short...yes, but it is the intent, repentance and return that makes a man righteous. Eze 18.

Deu 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deu 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it [is] not hidden from thee, neither [is] it far off.

"far off" meaning not difficult to observe....

Deu 30:12 It [is] not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:13 Neither [is] it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deu 30:14 But the word [is] very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.



Nor shall a Christian be judged under the law, because its been covered by the Blood of Jesus.

I hope you're right about that...better be sure about that....

I agree the law is to show mankind that they are sinners and need Jesus as Lord.

Not true....the Law is a guide to teach one how to live righteously (and live), not to show that they are sinners (Eze 18). Mankind needed Jesus to show them how to observe Torah "correctly", without the trappings of man made rabbinical rules surrounding the Torah.

Very true statement Jay T. But the Law or keeping the Law will in no how keep me in salvation or even obtain salvation.


Eze 18 would say that you may be mistaken somewhat....it plainly says, repent, return and obey the Law and you will live....Eze 18 may be the most important chapter in the entire Bible.

Its all about having the Lord Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

and identifying with him by doing what he did.....obeying Torah (or attempting to) as he did.

Just some observations...IMHO.

 

[mutzrein]

So which commandments of God did Abraham keep that made him righteous?

 

[Jay T]

So which commandments of God did Abraham keep that made him righteous?

Remember that RIGHTEOUSNESS, is defined, as God's Commandments (Psalms 119:172).

Abrahm kept all the commandments of God's, listed throughout the Bible.
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Remember....God's laws were handed down thru word of mouth......LONG BEFORE.....they were written down.

 

[RND]

Jesus said that all the law could be tied into these two commandments:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, & strenghth and Love your neighbor as yourself.

Indeed. ALL the law and prohets hang on these two principals.

With regards to the Law; Do you all follow the whole Law? That includes circumcising your baby boys at 8 days old, putting women out of the village when she has her period, having to be cleansed if you touch a dead body, do you eat rabbit, pork, lobster and shrimp, and so on?

These are part of the Mosaic Law, not God's moral law, the ten commandments.

I even know plenty of Jews who eat pork chops and love shrimp.

What a shame.

Is it even possible to follow the Law, the Whole Law?

No.

What about Jesus two commandments? It is easy to love God, since he loves us.

But do you congregate on the day He told you to?

But what about your neighbors? It is easy to love those who love you, but not all your neighbors love you and that would be more difficult. The thing is that you are commanded to love ALL your neighbors, even the ones who are your enemies! (an enemy is not someone you want to kill, but someone who wants to kill you). Do you think it is even possible to love those who HATE you?

Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Yes, I think it is entirely possible, as long as you have God and a perfect understanding of what He wants from you. Without Him, then one is on their own.

 

[RND]

So which commandments of God did Abraham keep that made him righteous?

All of them I'd imagine.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

 

[Jay T]

All of them I'd imagine.

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham even kept the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath....as he was loyal to God you know.......
20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".

 

[Solo]

Abraham even kept the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath....as he was loyal to God you know.......
20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".

And how does one hallow the sabbaths (even though you continually misrepresent the Scripture of Ezekiel 20:20, and completely take it out of context)?

 

[Jay T]

And how does one hallow the sabbaths (even though you continually misrepresent the Scripture of Ezekiel 20:20, and completely take it out of context)?

When Jesus Christ said....

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

.....was He speaking anything about context ?

When Jesus Christ used the words: "IF you love me, keep my commandments", ( John 14:15)
Ddo you know the context wherein He used those words from ?

OBSERVE......
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Tell me, why Jesus did not quote the whole 10 commandments ?

Did Jesus take the one verse, out of context ?

 

[Solo]

And how does one hallow the sabbaths (even though you continually misrepresent the Scripture of Ezekiel 20:20, and completely take it out of context)?

When Jesus Christ said....

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

.....was He speaking anything about context ?

When Jesus Christ used the words: "IF you love me, keep my commandments", ( John 14:15)
Ddo you know the context wherein He used those words from ?

OBSERVE......
Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10 But the seventh day [is] the sabbath of the LORD thy God: [in it] thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that [is] within thy gates:
20:11 For [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Tell me, why Jesus did not quote the whole 10 commandments ?

Did Jesus take the one verse, out of context ?

So in your words, how does one hallow the sabbath? And is it your position that the Law of Moses is the Law of God?

 

[Jay T]

So in your words, how does one hallow the sabbath?

FIRST, a person has to realize that GOD, is the one who made and blessed the 7th day sabbath, not man.
SECONDLY....the Hebrew word for 'hallow' means: prepare, keep, observe, proclaim, purify, sanctify, dedicate.

And is it your position that the Law of Moses is the Law of God?

Moses wrote in a 'book', the law God gave Him.
The 10 commandments were written on Stone tablets, by Christ Himself.

The Ark of the Covenant:

#1.) Law of Moses were placed on the 'outside' of the Ark.

#2.) The 10 Commandments were placed'inside' the Ark of the Covenant.


The Law written in a book shows their perishable nature.

The Law written on stone tablets, shows the permanent nature.