Non-OSAS and sleep

[DRS81]

How do people who believe that OSAS is false...... sleep at night.
I honestly want to know, what are there sleeping patterns like.
How do they sleep knowing they could lose their salvation at any time.
A fun thread.

 

[Gary]

I sleep just fine. Thanks for asking.

I don't subscribe to the OSAS doctrine and I don't believe individuals can lose their salvation at any moment.

.

 

[reba]

DRS81 I dont hold to a side in this battle , I dont find the scriptures clear like this verse..

1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
As far as sleeping I have known people who have all the appearances of being saved...
They dont talk dirty .. they go to church ... quote scripture .. witness .. Then over a period of time there is a change... these "christian" trates start falling away... ya get the ol dont talk to ME about God line. To our eyes we might say they turned their back on God or use the term backslid....

I am not saying these folks are damned. .. that is between them and God ... i am saying they would 'look' like they damned are to a christian..
I have been saved for about all my 67 years... i have sinned but i have never turned my back on God .. To me it is kinda like the ol line in the sand...
A pretty lady caught my uncle's eye and he drifted away from God...over the years Dad tried to pray with him he cussed both dad and God.

I have full faith and trust in HIm i am only human and we humans fail....

 

[reba]

I sleep just fine. Thanks for asking.

I don't subscribe to the OSAS doctrine and I don't believe individuals can lose their salvation at any moment.

.

Kinda like ya have to really put out a big effort to get your hand out of His....

 

[Gary]

Kinda like ya have to really put out a big effort to get your hand out of His....

Something like that.
.

 

[WIP]

How do people who believe that OSAS is false...... sleep at night.
I honestly want to know, what are there sleeping patterns like.
How do they sleep knowing they could lose their salvation at any time.
A fun thread.

I think you are still not quite understanding "non-OSAS" belief. I don't think they believe one can "lose" salvation but rather that one can let it go, leave it, or walk away from it. Non-OSAS believes Romans 8:38 that nothing can snatch us out of His hand but that does not necessarily mean we can't jump out as it were. This is how I am understanding the non-OSAS position anyway.

I don't particularly ascribe to OSAS position either but I know that I am not lost. There's no question about that in my mind at all. There was at one time but not anymore.

 

[reba]

 

[Deborah13]

I think you are still not quite understanding "non-OSAS" belief. I don't think they believe one can "lose" salvation but rather that one can let it go, leave it, or walk away from it. Non-OSAS believes Romans 8:38 that nothing can snatch us out of His hand but that does not necessarily mean we can't jump out as it were. This is how I am understanding the non-OSAS position anyway.

I don't particularly ascribe to OSAS position either but I know that I am not lost. There's no question about that in my mind at all. There was at one time but not anymore.

I agree. And like both Reba and Gary have said, it's not just some easy thing. God hold's on very tight.
He looks at the heart and as long as there is a smoking flax, He will not put it out. To me that means He doesn't removed His Holy Spirit. So conviction continues and love continues as well. He keeps drawing and showing Himself.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I like this thread. My spiritual mentor and friend is old school Pentecostal. Very big into "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." I appreciate that.

And yet...I fear losing my salvation. Or that I was never saved in the first place (thanks, PCUSA). That's I'll backslide and Christ will be but a vague memory.

I don't like TULIP because it freaks me out. "Perseverance of The Saints." How do you prove or disprove that? Where's the room for making mistakes?

I don't like OSAS because, as a Southerner ("Bible Belt: 1,000 miles wide, 1 inch deep") I've seen too many OSAS believers who do whatever they want to and still claim Christ, when its convenient. The Bible is just used to reinforce the social order around here, and that also makes me mad. "Christian" apparently means conventional and respectable. There's no real talk of transformation and no real discussion of what Christ does to truly change people in ways that society may not always approve of.

Ugh. The frustrations of a Christian in The Bible Belt, lol.

 

[reba]

CE you are not alone.. I have told this story before...

Dad a pentecostal pastor... A church member and long time friend became very ill heart attack stuff... Johnny called for dad so off he went. Johnny a good christian man to all appearances was clutching dads hand begging him to keep praying with Johnny for salvation ... So afraid was this godly man...he had been taught in that old pentecostal way as your mentor.... Scriptures like these below did not offer comfort...

Rom_8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Php_1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

2Th_3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.

There are many more of this same 'style' of verses ... Did Johnnys fear keep him for heaven i dont think so... Somewhere along life dad had come out of that 'pentecostal fear' When dad died we could see the the glory of the Lord on/in his face.. Dad based his trust in the Lord on God's Word not his feelings... He and Johnny are in both in heaven...

 

[Christ_empowered]

Thanks, reba.

That's probably the only thing I don't like about Pentecostalism. I think when you try to take the whole Bible as-is w/o a complicated hermeneutic (probably for the best, btw), you wind up with some problems. Not that the Bible is contradictory, just...I dunno...its complicated. Salvation. Our choice or God's? OSAS or something else? Both? A mixture? God's ways are higher than our ways...

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I have trouble sleeping at night worrying about my friends here on the Forum that they might lose their salvation at any minute.

 

[reba]

Good allenwynne then you are keeping them all in prayer

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Good allenwynne then you are keeping them all in prayer

Yeah, all one of them. :shades

 

[evenifigoalone]

I more or less ascribe to OSAS, but do think one could walk away from the faith...possibly.

I will say that because this issue gets really confusing, I did briefly, for about a week or so, wrestle with this issue last year. Almost terrified to go to sleep at night on the off chance I would die in my sleep. At that time, I was experiencing random chest pains and had no idea what was causing them. (I still get them, and I still don't know the cause. I have been to the doctor, and two EKGs and an x-ray showed my heart was healthy.) I was afraid because I began to wonder about OSAS. While I've always believed this doctrine, it's hard to be 100% certain that it's true. But I will hold onto it until thoroughly convinced it's best I amend my position.

In any case, if you're attempting to put down beliefs opposing OSAS, this isn't a valid argument. I'd recommend something that provides a logical counter.

 

[Willie T]

I like this thread. My spiritual mentor and friend is old school Pentecostal. Very big into "work out your salvation with fear and trembling." I appreciate that.

And yet...I fear losing my salvation. Or that I was never saved in the first place (thanks, PCUSA). That's I'll backslide and Christ will be but a vague memory.

I don't like TULIP because it freaks me out. "Perseverance of The Saints." How do you prove or disprove that? Where's the room for making mistakes?

I don't like OSAS because, as a Southerner ("Bible Belt: 1,000 miles wide, 1 inch deep") I've seen too many OSAS believers who do whatever they want to and still claim Christ, when its convenient. The Bible is just used to reinforce the social order around here, and that also makes me mad. "Christian" apparently means conventional and respectable. There's no real talk of transformation and no real discussion of what Christ does to truly change people in ways that society may not always approve of.

Ugh. The frustrations of a Christian in The Bible Belt, lol.

You might enjoy THIS. He was speaking of a lot of this very same mindset.

 

[YosefHayim]

Yeshua said he will never lose those whom he gains. Scripture says apostates were never of us to begin with.

 

[Danus]

How do people who believe that OSAS is false...... sleep at night.
I honestly want to know, what are there sleeping patterns like.
How do they sleep knowing they could lose their salvation at any time.
A fun thread.

The term "OSAS" is short hand use to describe a much more detailed theological understanding of the Gospel than how we tend to use it here, or how it's been kicked around in the church. It's something that came largely from the Southern Baptist as a quick reference to how God completes the good work in us, and how we are not saved by anything we do or have done.

I don't think I've come across too many people on this forum, or in any church I've attended that have a very well rounded knowledge of reformed theology, or the doctrines of understanding taught. I'm not criticizing anyone for that, but using the phase OSAS as a way to simplify a view of salvation really needs to be dependence with because it's often not the full picture, and It's often used as a set up center piece for a straw man argument.

What is missing from it is the idea is what "work" we are to do as saved Christians. Do I believe a person can loose, or walk away from salvation? NO. But a saved person dose not have a license to just do what they want. They may call themselves saved, but if our salvation does not produce any change, any good works, we need to question our salvation. That's what is meant by working it out in fear and trembling.

You can not just say you're saved and continue in your own will. That's not evidence, and that's NOT what the reformed doctrine of salvation says. That's not OSAS from the great reformation, a period of time where the Gospel was put BACK in place where it belongs. IN the hands of Gods people.

In short, God completes the good work in us. Those who will be saved, are saved by God, not by anything (ANYTHING) they have done, are doing, or will do. God is not putting an "offer" out there waiting for someone to take it. No one will, or would. rather, God literally reaches down and saves! He saves people who are dead!, not people who are just dying, but stone cold spiritually DEAD! that is what we mean in the reformed theological understanding of salvation. Salvation is not your choice.

Now the question is, do we need to understand that to be saved? NO, No we do not. Again, we can't do anything to earn salvation, and that includes thinking we know what, why and how God saves anyone.

If we have to have these little short hands like OSAS, lets expand on that a bit. God saves. He saves those who will be saved, not those willing to be saved, just those who will be saved. Some will be saved and some will not be saved, and that's a biblical fact. God tells us that.

No one is worthy, or could possibly make themselves worthy of His salvation. It is by God and God alone. So He saves those who will be saved, and their salvation is because of what GOD DOES, not by what they do. But the evidence of their salvation is manifested in their good works.

The RCC does not teach this. Theirs is a works based doctrine. That's why we have the RCC and all these protestant denominations, some of which also teach a works based doctrine of salvation.

The most offensive question to ask people seems to be; "Are you saved?" if you say yes, then you must also need to know how.

I am saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ. He not only died for my sins He also lived the life I can not live. It's not enough that He simply died. If that where the case He could have just floated down from heaven, died on the cross and that's that, but that's not all of it. He lived the life I can't live. He paid the price I can't pay. He took on my debt and paid it! and....He lives. His kingdom is established and one day it will be consummated, made complete.

The Christian life does not = (equal) salvation. It's not a means to an end. Rather, salvation (equals) the Christian life. Salvation is the means to the end. Salvation is the reason any one here on this forum calls themselves a Christian.

Are you saved? Our Christian Life will tell the story of what has happened to us, not what will happen maybe, but what HAS happened. God does not NEED us to do anything. He does the saving and we NEED Him, but He will use us for His will, and for His Glory. Those are the people who are saved, and brother, I bet you they have more trouble sleeping at night then those who are not saved.

 

[YosefHayim]

Jesus said the work of a Christian was to believe in the one God sent. John 6:29

Fruit is a result (or byproduct if that can be used positively) of salvation.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Essentially what I've always been taught/believed, yes.