Not all born-again Christians make it through the sanctification process!

[By Grace]

So what you are trying to say is that you prefer to remain vague and ambiguous by NOT defining what YOU mean by salvation and works.

This was posted on the first page

Originally Posted by By Grace
John,
You seem to forget that sanctification is both progressive and positional.
The Christian is fully sanctified when he is born again because the righteousness of Christ is imputed (charged to his account) immediately. That is positional sanctification
Progressive sanctification is when we agree with what Paul laments in Romans 7,
"Oh wretched man that I am, who shall rescue me from this body of sin and of death!"

This was posted on the second page:

As long as we believe that perfection is unattainable this side of glory, we are in agreement

This was posted on page three:

There a re ZERO "good works" that are sufficiently meritorious for salvation. For anyone to say that is to deny the extent and the efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To believe that any works are sufficiently meritorious is to open a new category of the benefits of this work or that work, and to make some works more popular than other works. More to the point it makes salvation a "pay check" instead of a gift of unmerited grace from a benevolent and merciful God. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

Here are some other definitions, and they are based on the original Hebrew and Greek:

GRACE (חֶסֶד, chesed; “grace, mercy, steadfast love, compassion”; חֵן, chen; “grace, graciousness, kindness”; χάρις, charis; “grace, favor, graciousness, goodwill”). Gracious or merciful behavior of a more powerful person toward another. Displayed by the Lord toward humankind and by people towards each other in the Old Testament. Used to describe God or Christ in their merciful character or actions toward humankind in the New Testament. Spiritual gifts are described as “graces.” A literary device used at the beginning or end of many New Testament letters.

Grace in the Old Testament

The Lord shows grace towards His people in the Old Testament. A common way of describing human graciousness toward another person is “to find favor in [their] eyes.”
​

Divine Grace. Examples of God’s grace in the Old Testament:
​

• (Gen 6:8) Noah “found favor (חֵן, chen) in the eyes of the Lord” (HCSB).
• (Exod 33, 34) Moses found favor in the eyes of the Lord so that He did not judge the idolatrous children of Israel. As the Lord was preparing to rewrite His commandments on tablets of stone, He passed before Moses and said, “Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth” (Exod 34:6 HCSB).
• (Pss 86:15; 103:8; 111:4; 112:4; 116:5; 145:8) The Psalms are filled with praise of God’s grace and graciousness. Grace was a major theme in Israel’s worship.
• (Jer 31:2) The Lord looked back on His favor toward Israel in the wilderness after coming out of Egypt, implying He would do the same thing in graciously bringing His people out of Babylon.
• (Zech 12:10) Zechariah foretold of a time when the Lord would “pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they have pierced” (HCSB). This passage is cited in Rev 1:7 along with Dan 7:13.

...

The Grace of God and of Christ. God and Christ are described in terms of their graciousness throughout the New Testament:

• (1 Pet 5:10) The Father is called “the God of all grace” (HCSB).
• (Eph 1:7) Speaks of “the riches of His grace,” the recognition of which should be to “the praise of His glorious grace” (HCSB).
• (John 1:14) Describes Jesus as “full of grace and truth” (HCSB).
• The majority of Paul’s letters end with “the grace of our Lord Jesus” (e.g., Rom 16:20; 1 Cor 16:23; Phlm 25).
• (2 Thess 1:12) God and Christ are linked in regard to their χάρις (charis), “the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ” (HCSB).

Salvation as an Act of Grace. For both Jews and Gentiles, salvation was a gracious act: “For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—not from works, so that no one can boast” (Eph 2:8–9 HCSB).

• (Titus 2:11–13) Paul instructs young believers on the island of Crete: “For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (HCSB).
• (2 Cor 12:9) Paul says that the Lord taught him, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness” (HCSB).
• (Acts 20:32) At Miletus, Paul told the Ephesian elders, “I commit you to God and to the message of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all who are sanctified” (HCSB).
• (2 Pet 3:18) Peter concludes his second letter with these words: “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ” (HCSB).
​

Luter, A. B. (2012). Grace. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.).

The question of the meaning of grace is not subjective, meaning what an individuate believes. Rather the question is "What is the Biblical meaning of grace in both the OT and NT?"

IMHO your question is answered in this post.

 

[dadof10]

So what you are trying to say is that you prefer to remain vague and ambiguous by NOT defining what YOU mean by salvation and works.

Good for you...

Nice try on insertion of a strawman.

Scripture is abundantly clear that those who call upon 'our' Lord, Jesus Christ, shall be saved.

It's not a maybe.

There is of course a scripture mine for this position.

and there is an equally amazing scripture mine on how to address the stuff you focus on to make it a maybe that will not result in the conclusion your formula has.

Simple enough?

s

Smaller, I have some time now so if you would like, I could start a thread in the One-on-One Debate forum on OSAS. Over there you would be free to express your feelings about my "sect" all you want. Are you game?

 

[smaller]

Smaller, I have some time now so if you would like, I could start a thread in the One-on-One Debate forum on OSAS. Over there you would be free to express your feelings about my "sect" all you want. Are you game?

Ultimately there are two simple avenues that I observe.

One, that I can read and accept that anyone who calls upon 'our' Lord, Jesus Christ, shall be saved. And even in acknowledgement of Gods granting salvation to works of Love by the workers of same, I can extend that measure by reading and accepting 1 John 4:7 for example. I am admittedly very open on this particular subject, not interested in 'blocking the Gates of Heaven' by my own lips, as that is both inappropriate and not my place. There is no need for my heart to go there.

Why any insist on forcing unknown and unknowable salvation on anyone as a believer is rather a strange voice to me, personally. To me such views are held by those who are not convinced of their own faith.

The other side I am intimately familiar with, as in where you are going to go, and I will tell you that it's not going to be:

a. pleasant for you
b. beneficial dialog for either of us

If you want to insist that other believers are only 'maybe saved' and 'maybe not' that is just going to be a message that you personally are stuck with.

I'm not all that interested quite frankly.

We both know there are rich quote mines on both sides of the ledgers for these matters. I happen to have learned a vastly better way to understand the side you operate from to denigrate the salvation of other believers and to live in perpetual doubts.

And the 'one on one' forums are not interesting to me if they are done in a typical formal debate setting.

Entirely too limited of a format.

s

 

[francisdesales]

So what you are trying to say is that you prefer to remain vague and ambiguous by NOT defining what YOU mean by salvation and works.

Good for you...

Nice try on insertion of a strawman.

Scripture is abundantly clear that those who call upon 'our' Lord, Jesus Christ, shall be saved.

It's not a maybe.

There is of course a scripture mine for this position.

and there is an equally amazing scripture mine on how to address the stuff you focus on to make it a maybe that will not result in the conclusion your formula has.

Simple enough?

s

This is no strawman, it is reality. And your refusal to define "salvation" is typical of our past discussions.

Scripture clearly uses a number of definitions of the term "save".

If you can't see that, there is nothing more to say to you.

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[francisdesales]

This was posted on the first page



This was posted on the second page:


This was posted on page three:

There a re ZERO "good works" that are sufficiently meritorious for salvation. For anyone to say that is to deny the extent and the efficacy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. To believe that any works are sufficiently meritorious is to open a new category of the benefits of this work or that work, and to make some works more popular than other works. More to the point it makes salvation a "pay check" instead of a gift of unmerited grace from a benevolent and merciful God. Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life

Here are some other definitions, and they are based on the original Hebrew and Greek:

GRACE (חֶסֶד, chesed; “grace, mercy, steadfast love, compassion”; חֵן, chen; “grace, graciousness, kindness”; χάρις, charis; “grace, favor, graciousness, goodwill”). Gracious or merciful behavior of a more powerful person toward another. Displayed by the Lord toward humankind and by people towards each other in the Old Testament. Used to describe God or Christ in their merciful character or actions toward humankind in the New Testament. Spiritual gifts are described as “graces.” A literary device used at the beginning or end of many New Testament letters.

Grace in the Old Testament

The Lord shows grace towards His people in the Old Testament. A common way of describing human graciousness toward another person is “to find favor in [their] eyes.”
​

Divine Grace. Examples of God’s grace in the Old Testament:
​

• (Gen 6:8) Noah “found favor (חֵן, chen) in the eyes of the Lord” (HCSB).
• (Exod 33, 34) Moses found favor in the eyes of the Lord so that He did not judge the idolatrous children of Israel. As the Lord was preparing to rewrite His commandments on tablets of stone, He passed before Moses and said, “Yahweh is a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger and rich in faithful love and truth” (Exod 34:6 HCSB).
• (Pss 86:15; 103:8; 111:4; 112:4; 116:5; 145:8) The Psalms are filled with praise of God’s grace and graciousness. Grace was a major theme in Israel’s worship.
• (Jer 31:2) The Lord looked back on His favor toward Israel in the wilderness after coming out of Egypt, implying He would do the same thing in graciously bringing His people out of Babylon.
• (Zech 12:10) Zechariah foretold of a time when the Lord would “pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the house of David and the residents of Jerusalem, and they will look at Me whom they have pierced” (HCSB). This passage is cited in Rev 1:7 along with Dan 7:13.

...

The Grace of God and of Christ. God and Christ are described in terms of their graciousness throughout the New Testament:

• (1 Pet 5:10) The Father is called “the God of all grace” (HCSB).
• (Eph 1:7) Speaks of “the riches of His grace,” the recognition of which should be to “the praise of His glorious grace” (HCSB).
• (John 1:14) Describes Jesus as “full of grace and truth” (HCSB).
• The majority of Paul’s letters end with “the grace of our Lord Jesus” (e.g., Rom 16:20; 1 Cor 16:23; Phlm 25).
• (2 Thess 1:12) God and Christ are linked in regard to their χάρις (charis), “the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ” (HCSB).

Salvation as an Act of Grace. For both Jews and Gentiles, salvation was a gracious act: “For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—not from works, so that no one can boast” (Eph 2:8–9 HCSB).

• (Titus 2:11–13) Paul instructs young believers on the island of Crete: “For the grace of God has appeared with salvation for all people, instructing us to deny godlessness and worldly lusts and to live in a sensible, righteous, and godly way in the present age, while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (HCSB).
• (2 Cor 12:9) Paul says that the Lord taught him, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness” (HCSB).
• (Acts 20:32) At Miletus, Paul told the Ephesian elders, “I commit you to God and to the message of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all who are sanctified” (HCSB).
• (2 Pet 3:18) Peter concludes his second letter with these words: “But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ” (HCSB).
​

Luter, A. B. (2012). Grace. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.).

The question of the meaning of grace is not subjective, meaning what an individuate believes. Rather the question is "What is the Biblical meaning of grace in both the OT and NT?"

IMHO your question is answered in this post.

The term "salvation" is used, but WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

Thanks for the post, but I am really just making a generic comment, not arguing with you on the ubiquitous argument of OSAS/non-OSAS discussions here. If you want to effectively get your point across and not waste your time, I am just making a suggestion that you define what you mean by "salvation". This is not done by a huge exposition on "grace". Nor is pointing to a post that uses the term in a sentence define the term.

Case in point:

There a re ZERO "good works" that are sufficiently meritorious for salvation

Ok, does that term "salvation" mean being freed from sin long ago?
Does it mean BEING saved, right now?
Does it mean receiving the eternal reward of heaven?

As one can readily see, there are different nuances of the term.

Regards

 

[smaller]

So what you are trying to say is that you prefer to remain vague and ambiguous by NOT defining what YOU mean by salvation and works.

Good for you...

Is there some compelling need to hack apart the term 'salvation?' Do we have entire and complete salvation currently? As a solid promise, yes. As an entirely completed reality? No.

We could sub list many factors under the term salvation such as:

[FONT=&quot]What are we 'saved from?:

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-enemies[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Luke 1:71- 74)
-Gentiles (Acts 26:17)
-money (Luke 19:8-10)
-sinking (Mat 8:24-25,Mat 14:30)
-earthly trials (2 Pet 2:9)
-Egyptians (Jude 1:5)
-war (Luke 1:79)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-Death[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mark 15:30-31,Mark 3:4,Luke 6:9,Luke 23:35-39,John 12:27,Acts 27:43; 2 Tim 1:8-10,Heb 5:7; James 5:15,James 5:20). Many of the references to being saved from death seem to refer to a kind of spiritual death
-sickness (Luke 7:50,Luke 13:16,John 3:16)
-loosing one’s life to save it, in effect saved from ourselves (Mark 8:34-38,Luke 9:23-25)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-sins[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mat 1:21,Luke 1:77,John 1:29,John 8:33-36,Acts 5:31,Acts 13:36-39,Acts 26:18; 1 Pet 2:21-25)
-slavery to evil behaviour and passions (Tit 3:3-5)
-slavery to sin (Rom 6:16-23,Rom 7:21-25, 8:1-4, 1 Tim 1:15)
-slavery to futility and bondage to decay (Rom 8:19-21)
-slavery to the mastery of darkness (Col 1:13-14)
-captivity to the present evil age (Gal 1:3-4)
-slavery to the elemental spirits of the universe (Gal 4:3-6,Gal 4:31-5:1)
-impiety and worldly passions (Tit 2:11-14)
-a corrupt generation (Acts 2:40)
-the defilements of this world (2 Pet 2:20)
-a pointless life following the ruling powers of evil (Eph 2:1-5)
-futile ways of living (1 Pet 1:18-19, 1Pet 2:1-2?).
-the devil (my personal favorite of course) (Mat 6:13,Luke 13:16,Acts 26:18; Heb 2:14-15; Rev 12:10; 2 Tim 4:18)
-our fleshly bodies (Phil 3:20-21)
-going astray (1 Pet 2:21-25)
-not being in the Kingdom of God (Mat 19:23-26)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

None of that changes the fact that we are in fact saved by the simple fact of calling upon our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to in fact SAVE us.
[/FONT]
and I think there is general agreement that 'works' are largely 'external actions of love to others.' So I kind of expect that to be a known matter and if some want to hack that term apart from there, again, so what?

This is no strawman, it is reality. And your refusal to define "salvation" is typical of our past discussions.

We all have the text to read. Does that mean I must accept that slicing apart the term 'salvation' is required in order to make it something we do for ourselves?

Uh, no. The Savior Saves, period.

Scripture clearly uses a number of definitions of the term "save".

I also accept the fact that there are various stages of understandings and certainly every situation for all of us is entirely different.

If you can't see that, there is nothing more to say to you.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Oh huff.

I'm no fan of doubt casters that's a certainty.

Believers who think they only might be saved really have no clue if they are or not, only that they might be. They really can't say for sure can they? They logically have as a 'best case scenario' only a reasonable assurance. And that also includes A POSSIBLE NO doesn't it?

So maybe, maybe not.

GREAT declaration!

Do I respect that position? No. I respect only your right to hold it.

s

 

[dadof10]

The other side I am intimately familiar with,

No, you are not. In two other threads, you have made it abundantly clear that you have no clue what my "sect" teaches. You only know what you have been taught to you by obviously ignorant people, even going so far as to quote HALF A DEFINITION from the Catholic Encyclopedia in order to "make your point". When the other half, which further explained the true Catholic position, was posted to you, it was ignored.

I think that a format without much moderation, where my unbridled position would be accurately laid out, and your caricature of my positions would be shown to be laughable, actually scares you. You need to be here, where Catholic doctrine is monitored, where you can throw rocks at your straw-man, and be protected from any correction by someone posting actual COMPLETE Church documents.

as in where you are going to go, and I will tell you that it's not going to be:

a. pleasant for you

How so?

b. beneficial dialog for either of us

It would be beneficial to anyone who might want to read it, though. At least they would get what the Catholic Church actually teaches so they could make up their own minds if we are "the Whore of Babylon".

If you want to insist that other believers are only 'maybe saved' and 'maybe not' that is just going to be a message that you personally are stuck with.

I'm not all that interested quite frankly.

We both know there are rich quote mines on both sides of the ledgers for these matters. I happen to have learned a vastly better way to understand the side you operate from to denigrate the salvation of other believers and to live in perpetual doubts.

And the 'one on one' forums are not interesting to me if they are done in a typical formal debate setting.

It doesn't have to be e "debate setting". There are plenty of debates there that do not follow the typical format. We can do whatever you want.

Entirely too limited of a format.

I think it's the opposite, which is what scares you.

 

[George Muller]

1Co 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I just dont see that all this "sanctification process" has made anything but a bunch of carnal divisions.
True holiness is when the Body of Christ are walking in The Spirit of God.

1Co 3:11 ¶ For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 ¶ Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 ¶ Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

 

[smaller]

No, you are not. In two other threads, you have made it abundantly clear that you have no clue what my "sect" teaches.

I understand it cannot be discussed here.

You only know what you have been taught to you by obviously ignorant people, even going so far as to quote HALF A DEFINITION from the Catholic Encyclopedia in order to "make your point". When the other half, which further explained the true Catholic position, was posted to you, it was ignored.

I can read and comprehend as well as you can dadO.

I think that a format without much moderation, where my unbridled position would be accurately laid out, and your caricature of my positions would be shown to be laughable, actually scares you. You need to be here, where Catholic doctrine is monitored, where you can throw rocks at your straw-man, and be protected from any correction by someone posting actual COMPLETE Church documents.

As stated multiple times, it really doesn't matter. You'll do as you are told, period. Those matters are not subject to "your version." We all can read the details IF anyone is 'really' interested. I'd suggest that some adherents are wildly jaded and slanted to matters they think are true from their sects, but in fact aren't there.

How so?

It would be beneficial to anyone who might want to read it, though. At least they would get what the Catholic Church actually teaches so they could make up their own minds if we are "the Whore of Babylon".

You know me better than that! I've never made such a claim and in fact have stated to you many times as far as I'm concerned you're saved. You're not even allowed to believe that.

I think it's the opposite, which is what scares you.

I enjoy the interaction format with multiple parties. The one on one debates are unsatisfying for me. Been there, done that. And yes, they are limited whereas you and I in this format can pick at each others endlessly...;)

njoy!

s

 

[WIP]

Okay. I will ask gently. Please refrain from interjecting your own opinions about what others believe. Please refrain from the condescending tones. I find this kind of thing anything but edifying. Please remember that we are here to help each other grow in Christ, not beat each other up. Thank you.

 

[Sparkey]

... whereas you and I in this format [this forum?] can pick at each others endlessly ...

Who is this anonymous stranger that speaks to the heart of the matter? I dunno if I wanna bring out the ban-hammer or congratulate for the simple, clear, statement of truth. Maybe just notice it? Okay, I'll notice it.

 

[smaller]

... whereas you and I in this format [this forum?] can pick at each others endlessly ...

Who is this anonymous stranger that speaks to the heart of the matter? I dunno if I wanna bring out the ban-hammer or congratulate for the simple, clear, statement of truth. Maybe just notice it? Okay, I'll notice it.

Glad you noticed it for the lighthearted statement it was....