Nude Art and Jesus

[Guest]

It's sinful to pose nude for someone to make a drawing, icon, painting, sculpture, etc. of you.

Why is it sinful to pose nude? This is key. You guys need to explain why posing nude is sinful. The best two arguments presented so far are (a) it can cause a brother to stumble and (b) God made clothes for Adam and Eve. Neither of which I consider to be good arguments.

If you need money, the LORD JESUS will provide an honorable way for you to earn money.

Not everyone poses nude for money.

 

[Guest]

To make it more interesting, is it sinful for a wife to pose for her husband nude while he draws, paints or photographs her? Or vice versa?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Yes, God created the human body and there is an inherent beauty in it. However, that in no way means that God intended for the human body to be reproduced in sculpture, paintings, etc., or that we can justify doing so by merely saying it is God's creation. In an unfallen world, maybe; in a fallen world, almost certainly not.

Why not? I can go into an art museum and peruse nude depictions all day and not be aroused in the slightest. Have I now sinned as a result by being in a place that prominently displays these works of "art"? I think now. Artistic expression is a gift that we as humans possess and use to understand our world and to tell stories. Nude art is no different and in and of itself is not sinful. Someone's reaction to it could be and those folks will have to come to terms with that not the piece of art of the artist.

There is no NEED for nude art. There is a need for many things, but not nude art. I can't think of ONE good thing nude art has done for Christianity. Can you?
Some of the most popular artists who sculpted nude statues, were homosexuals. The statues were of nude men.
What good thing has nude art done for the cause of Jesus Christ?

There is no need for video games, or fictional books, or music, or ice cream but that doesn't mean that they are all sinful. Come on folks. We can come up with something better than that. There is nothing wrong with the human form and nudity in and of itself. If whatever God made is good than the naked human form is good.

 

[Free]

Are you suggesting that passage is declaring nudity to be sinful?

Not necessarily but one really ought to take a hard look at 1) why God clothed Adam and Eve, and 2) why one wants to see or paint naked people. There is always an inherent sexuality in nudity. Why not paint the body with clothes? Why not paint trees, mountains, oceans, etc? Why nudity?

It's sinful to pose nude for someone to make a drawing, icon, painting, sculpture, etc. of you.

Why is it sinful to pose nude? This is key. You guys need to explain why posing nude is sinful. The best two arguments presented so far are (a) it can cause a brother to stumble and (b) God made clothes for Adam and Eve. Neither of which I consider to be good arguments.

You obviously missed the point I was making.

 

[Guest]

There is always an inherent sexuality in nudity.

And this is where we disagree. This builds the foundation for all the other reasoning. Can you make an argue to support this?

I would argue sexuality is not inherent to nudity. Rather, the degree to which nudity is perceived as sexual is culturally shaped -- both in a broad (e.g., American culture) and narrow sense (e.g., the family or local church).

 

[Guest]

It's sinful to pose nude for someone to make a drawing, icon, painting, sculpture, etc. of you.

Why is it sinful to pose nude? This is key. You guys need to explain why posing nude is sinful. The best two arguments presented so far are (a) it can cause a brother to stumble and (b) God made clothes for Adam and Eve. Neither of which I consider to be good arguments.

You obviously missed the point I was making.

Or you missed mine.

 

[jsnbrown]

But like Biblereader mentioned, God clothed Adam and Eve!

Until marriage, we are to remain clothed! (sorry for the over usage of "!")

No matter how beautiful the human body is, it is to remain clothed except for their mate. That is how it is.

I didn't see one thing wrong with BR's post. We will be tempted to sin. And those addicted to porn will definitely look at this as the same.

You say the difference lies between what they are posing for?

What about lying? If it is a good lie is it still wrong? yes!

Here is a even crazier statement, what about eating pork around a Jew? Or a Messianic Jew? It is still wrong for them in their belief and they might stumble because of it. It is the same with nude art.

No matter what it is wrong.

Now, with your married partner, it is good! Promoted actually! As long as it stays between you and your partner (Once again emphasizing the fact that the partner is married to you.)

 

[Timothy]

there are many of you here that dish out judgment and condemation like it was candy. You look down on your brothers and sisters. Wither they are the weaker faith, or you, you condemn them (and truly it is you); your responsibility is to teach them from a teachable attitude in love, suffering with them to help them change. Yet over a difference of opinion, even a debate you throw phrases like turn or burn at them.

Not one person here Has said they were a nudist or an artist who practices it, or even a model. Yet you denounce them as addicted to lust and sin rather then having a conversation regarding biblical verses. And you condemn them without referencing scripture other then in vague statements such as the bible says. I've seen this many times over in this forum in many threads. I will only say take care in the manor you judge God's servants, God's kids, because that judgment will be returned to you. If with mercy then you shall receive it. If without mercy then you shall receive none.

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

James 2:8-13 KJV

For the record telling someone "turn or burn" has saved no one. That is a tool of the world, a tool of hate and judgment. Only God's love saves through His Son, Jesus Christ. Only through the leading of the Holy Spirit. You can even relay to someone they are in sin in a manor befiting a God who declares that He is Love

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:7-8

19 We love him, because he first loved us. 20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
1 John 4:17-21

I'm done with this forum. I've no need to spend time with people who have their feet in the world and do not know the love of God, they walk only in judgment. For if you knew the Love of God, you would act in it toward your brothers and sisters. instead you declare them sinners and show them hate. Out of an over flow of the heart, the mouth speaks (Mat 15:18). And no I'm not talking about everyone but those who act this way will know I speak to them.

 

[Innkeeper-Ministry]

My response is to Timothy. I was with you from the beginning of your response until you made this remark:

I'm done with this forum. I've no need to spend time with people who have their feet in the world and do not know the love of God, they walk only in judgment. For if you knew the Love of God, you would act in it toward your brothers and sisters. instead you declare them sinners and show them hate. Out of an over flow of the heart, the mouth speaks (Mat 15:18). And no I'm not talking about everyone but those who act this way will know I speak to them.

What is sad about this is you are doing the very thing you were rebuking the others about sir. As soon as you said your peace and proper rebuke you fell from truth by saying "I am done with this forum and that you will not spend your time with people like these

Do you not see the contradiction here brother? Rebuke yes - even step back from the discussion for a time YES - but to say you wont spend your time with people like these is where your heart became blackened. You said TEACH - well sir - where is your lesson? If we run every time we see carnality in a group like this we will never be productive in Christian forums. I mean do you really think you leaving this forum will help them mature? Well if your not seeing the contradiction I guess it might be a good thing ------RIGHT?

 

[Timothy]

While normally would agree. I fall back for a reason. I have poor health. A degenerative disease that continues to eat at my body. I'm currently home locked even. I can't get out for even doctor visits without great deal of trouble. I can't get to church if I could I wouldn't be able to sit through it and it would cause me a great deal of problems if I tried. Stress of even a phone call will set me over the edge of this. Stress quickens the diseases pace dramatically. Being only 34 I have no real desire to drive my health down further and be more a burden from my family.

I joined these forums to be able to reach out of myself, maybe help someone while I can still maintain a train of thought, something that gets harder to do as time goes on. While normally I would stay and try, it just pains me to much to see people stuck in that trap. I do spend a lot of time praying and thinking for these people. To a great degree your right I should. But truthfully I feel such a burden on my wife who is the only one there to help me day to day, I don't want to make it worse for her.

I will think and pray on what you stated. Well spoken I'll have to think about it. And I would agree that to some degree that last paragraph was over the line, in at least part of it. For that I apologize.

 

[Guest]

Until marriage, we are to remain clothed!

What about the shower? What about the doctor?

I didn't see one thing wrong with BR's post. We will be tempted to sin.

We will be tempted or we can possibly be tempted? There is quite a difference between the two.

You say the difference lies between what they are posing for?

Well, yes. Intention is an essential part of ethics and morality. Jesus clearly taught this. Consider the story about those giving to the temple -- the rich person versus the poor person. The amount was not what mattered but the intention behind the act. Consider the passages about lust. Lusting after someone's wife was considered the equivalent of adultery. Again, the intention matters. So, absolutely, the intention of the individuals posing and creating the art is an essential element of this discussion.

What about lying? If it is a good lie is it still wrong? yes!

I do not believe lying is always wrong. However, this is a subject for another time.

Here is a even crazier statement, what about eating pork around a Jew? Or a Messianic Jew? It is still wrong for them in their belief and they might stumble because of it. It is the same with nude art.

What about meat sacrificed to idols? I can eat it with a clear conscious.

 

[Guest]

I'm done with this forum. I've no need to spend time with people who have their feet in the world and do not know the love of God, they walk only in judgment. For if you knew the Love of God, you would act in it toward your brothers and sisters. instead you declare them sinners and show them hate. Out of an over flow of the heart, the mouth speaks (Mat 15:18). And no I'm not talking about everyone but those who act this way will know I speak to them.

I am not sure what in this thread sparked this response. I certainly don't see anything that anyone has done which has been too harsh. I would grant there are strong opinions on both sides, but it has been fairly civil disagreements.

 

[jsnbrown]

It might be my lack of scripture.. Which I do apologize. I feel strongly in disagreement in this post and I guess I felt to much so that I went with my feelings and not with scripture.

SO.. here we go:

First I will answer your quotations and then I will dive into the great Library called the Bible.

What about the shower? What about the doctor?

When stated, I'm sure you understand I meant in front of people. If not understood, I, at the time, meant in front of people. And yes, doctors would be a worthy question. I actually felt quite uncomfortable looking at health care textbooks (I was training to be a MOA) during College.. I can stare all I want to at a body ripped to shreds by a car wreck but I would feel completely crazy examining a female and I feel the same when I heard my girlfriend was going to the doctor for female issues. I praised God when I heard it was a female doctor and in fact her parents insisted on a female doctor.

I would feel extremely uncomfortable with a female doctor examining me. So, that is up in the air I guess.. Maybe it has to do with the person's background..

Anywho.. Moving onward..

We will be tempted or we can possibly be tempted? There is quite a difference between the two.

This depends on the person. Once again background. I know some who have the strangest urge to look at any girl and whistle. Well.. Almost any girl.. For these people, the image would be a sure temptation.

I do not believe lying is always wrong. However, this is a subject for another time.

You and I definitely disagree on this. But yes.. Another time.

What about meat sacrificed to idols? I can eat it with a clear conscious.

As long as I am alone and I cause no one to stumble I am of clear conscious as well.. But if I am causing someone to question my reasons by eating this meat.. Then I will not eat it.

Now for Scripture.
I will start with what we already have:

In Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 2:25, we can both agree that God saw the nude versions of both genders and said, "It is Good"

Then I will point you to here: Genesis 3:7-11 Here is the familiar scripture about Adam and Eve's eyes being opened. What did they notice first? "Oh whoa.. We are nude!!! Run for cover!" (Not an exact quotation of course.. :P )

Then we finish with what God could have easily solved with a, "Being unclothed is ok, it is still pure, you don't have to hide." but instead: Genesis 3:21, He gave them better clothes! He actually made the first death to make the clothing at that point.

Why would God sacrifice an animal to clothe a human if it wasn't important to stay clothed? (In front of anyone besides your mate and.. possibly your doctor.. lol.. )

Farther on:
Exodus 28:42 God commands that Priests need to cover themselves with undergarments (Probably how we today now wear undergarments).

In Exodus 32:24-26m it is mentioned yet again about people running about nude and it being shameful..

In Isaiah 47:2-4, it seems God is commanding the "virgin daughter of Babylon" to be nude and be ashamed.

Back to Leviticus, here is you a whole list of thou shalt nots.. Leviticus 18:6-18

Also an interesting point I read. Most often during Biblical times, when someone is spoken of as naked, they are with unconventional clothing. http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/v ... mber=T6257

It is interesting to see that Peter didn't even want Jesus to see him in his undergarments if this is the case: John 21:7



Sadly society for the most part does not have the innocence that Adam and Eve first did in the Garden of Eden. Because of this, nudity is a bad thing. It leads to sin for some. And to cause others to sin (Or to stumble ( Romans 14:13-23 ) is a sin in itself..

But this is my viewpoint.

This time with verses.

 

[GojuBrian]

First of all, nude art? Not for me,lol.

Timothy wrote

I'm done with this forum. I've no need to spend time with people who have their feet in the world and do not know the love of God, they walk only in judgment. For if you knew the Love of God, you would act in it toward your brothers and sisters. instead you declare them sinners and show them hate. Out of an over flow of the heart, the mouth speaks (Mat 15:18). And no I'm not talking about everyone but those who act this way will know I speak to them.

Don't let a few disagreements make you quit! We can not control who is on these boards or what they say, don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch.

Can I make a suggestion? Take a little break and try to focus more on the positive topics!

God Bless, we would miss you if you just left.

Brian

 

[JoJo]

First, I would like to say to Timothy, please don't go! I've enjoyed your posts and can sympathize with your wanting to reach out beyond your four walls. No place is perfect, but it's people like you (and many others) that give this forum its substance. I can understand if the stress is hard on you, though. Perhaps pray about it and ask the Lord to reveal His will in this for you.

minnesota wrote: To make it more interesting, is it sinful for a wife to pose for her husband nude while he draws, paints or photographs her? Or vice versa?

In my personal opinion, I would say it is okay. Obviously, God created a husband and wife to be attracted to each other sexually. As long as the photos or drawings or paintings stay within the safe reach of only the couple, I don't think there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Guest]

What about meat sacrificed to idols? I can eat it with a clear conscious.

As long as I am alone and I cause no one to stumble I am of clear conscious as well.. But if I am causing someone to question my reasons by eating this meat.. Then I will not eat it.

Therefore, we agree it is acceptable to eat meat sacrificed to idols, so long as we do not knowing cause our neighbor to stumble, correct?

Then I will point you to here: Genesis 3:7-11 Here is the familiar scripture about Adam and Eve's eyes being opened. What did they notice first? "Oh whoa.. We are nude!!! Run for cover!" (Not an exact quotation of course.. :P )

Then we finish with what God could have easily solved with a, "Being unclothed is ok, it is still pure, you don't have to hide." but instead: Genesis 3:21, He gave them better clothes! He actually made the first death to make the clothing at that point.

Why would God sacrifice an animal to clothe a human if it wasn't important to stay clothed?

There is a non-sequitur here. God providing clothing to Adam and Eve does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that nudity is sinful or somehow inherently shameful.

Exodus 28:42 God commands that Priests need to cover themselves with undergarments

The attempt to connect this passage to our discussion is a serious stretch, almost to the point of being dishonest. Without evidence showing how nudity was part of the issue here, then this is inadmissible as evidence, and nothing the context of the passage (i.e., priestly garments) it is highly unlikely any arguments would be successful in swaying me into accepting it.

In Exodus 32:24-26m it is mentioned yet again about people running about nude and it being shameful..

This passage is talking about the Hebrews going nuts, not being naked. Yes, I am aware the King James uses the term naked. However, in this case, naked is referring to vulnerability and not nudity. This can be cleared up by reviewing other translations. Thus, this passage is not relevant.

In Isaiah 47:2-4, it seems God is commanding the "virgin daughter of Babylon" to be nude and be ashamed.

The connection between nudity and shame is not really clear. If we begin with the assumption nudity and shame are connected in the Bible, then I can see how one might read this passage as making that connection. However, without the assumption, the connection is still hazy. That said, I will grant the connection for the sake of argument.

The problem with using this passage is that it is not referring to a real person. Rather, it is referring to the "shame" (or humiliation) which will be brought upon the city of Babylon. To express such, the author has chosen to apply an existing cultural connection between nudity and shame to make his point. Thus, again, this would be a weak connection to our topic. And it would be no more helpful than arguing nudity is necessarily sinful or shameful because [insert any group] says so.

Back to Leviticus, here is you a whole list of thou shalt nots.. Leviticus 18:6-18

To uncover the nakedness of someone is a biblical euphemism for sex, and we agree sex is not the issue here.

Also an interesting point I read. Most often during Biblical times, when someone is spoken of as naked, they are with unconventional clothing. http://www.searchgodsword.org/enc/isb/v ... mber=T6257

This is interesting, but not directly relevant. And if one carefully reviews the encyclopedic entry, they will discover it actually supports the points made above.

It is interesting to see that Peter didn't even want Jesus to see him in his undergarments if this is the case: John 21:7

As with the Isaiah passage, the existence of such a perspective does not mean there is necessarily a connection between nudity and sin/shame.

Sadly society for the most part does not have the innocence that Adam and Eve first did in the Garden of Eden. Because of this, nudity is a bad thing. It leads to sin for some. And to cause others to sin (Or to stumble ( Romans 14:13-23 ) is a sin in itself..

We agree nudity can cause one to stumble and sin. However, it still has not been established that nudity is bad. As has been shown above, careful thinking about the evidence presented reveals nothing more than the existence of a culturally shaped perception that nudity is bad and/or shameful across some cultures. And, I believe we agree, culture alone is an insufficient source for decidedly Christian morality.

 

[JoJo]

Is nudity bad? No, otherwise God would have created us with coveralls.

Is nudity personal and private? Yes.

We can take a lesson from children:

If you ever noticed, babies and toddlers have no problem being naked in front of others. They really don't care. But when most children reach a certain age (usually around 4 or 5), they begin to become aware of their nudity and will retreat to their bedroom or bathroom to undress. Why? I believe it is because we inheritantly experience modesty and an awareness that our private areas are just that -- private.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Even God clothed Adam and Eve after they sinned:

He did that because he was casting them out of a perfect environment into a harsh, cruel world that He had just cursed. There would be thorns and other hazards to the body, and they would need protection from those, but I don't believe that the human bodies God had created and called "very good" suddenly became offensive to Him. Their sin was disobedience; THAT was what offended Him.

Yes, they "knew that they were naked", but that was just a realization of what nakedness was. They were like innocent children that hadn't been taught body shame yet since they didn't have parents to teach it to them, or a society or government telling them that nudity was offensive--as we're taught today.

They covered themselves with leaves in a feeble effort to hide from God to blend in with the foliage like a soldier who does the same thing, Why would they be embarrassed by their nakedness? They were husband and wife.

How about God commanding Isaiah to walk naked for 3 years while preaching to the people? Many men, women and children would see his nudity. Yes, it was "for a sign and wonder upon Egypt", but if being nude in front of anyone other than your spouse or the doctor is sinful, then God commanded Isaiah to sin. Would God command anyone to sin? I seriously doubt it since we're told in James 1:13, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted with evil; neither tempteth he any man."

Since God would not tempt anyone to do evil, neither would He command anyone to do evil. Yet, he commanded Isaiah to walk barefoot and naked.

The verses in Leviticus are not about nudity being sinful, but they are about INCEST. Every verse refers to a man undressing a female RELATIVE for the purpose of sex. That is the sin talked about there and NOT nudity.

 

[Innkeeper-Ministry]

GOOD MAN! That is a sure sign of maturity my brother. You may be home bound bro but you are free in Christ and it shows. Never forget my friend - you can teach an old dog new trick LOL

 

[Carol Lowery]

Our Lord hung on the cross in HIS nakeness...though I believe HIS Word does state that we're not to look upon each others nakeness...so why would art be the exception?