Obedience to The Faith

[RichardBurger]

The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)

Matthew 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.

Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.

Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Rom 11:30-32 (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.

One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.

Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.

In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.

John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.

Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.

I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.

Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV

Their faith, not their works (verse 8)

Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith â€â€
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

 

[francisdesales]

Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Clearly, that is not the sum total of what Christ said about the "works of God"...

The previous two chapters (and the chapter that follows), Christ talks about the "works of God", beginning with the Beatitudes and ending with OUR righteousness that must EXCEED the Pharisees!!! We believe that Christ was sent by God - but it doesn't end there. We believe the Messenger AND the message, which Jesus continues for 3 chapters, which you seem to ignore to provide your proof text. Re-read ALL of Matthew 5 to the end of Matthew 7. There is no sign of "JUST believe I was sent by God" as the TOTAL definition of faith...

Faith includes almsgiving, fasting, prayer, and being righteous, all acts of obedience in love, obedience to what our Savior has commanded us to do. Not to merely follow the written letter of the Law (such as not ONLY literally committing adultery, but not even having the thoughts in our hearts). Christ's commands fulfill the Law. They do not abrogate them, out of some shrunken definition of faith as "believe I am the Christ" but "don't bother listening to my commandments"...

Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Obedient to the faith means we OBEY what we are commanded to do, love our enemies, doing good deeds out of the sake of love, not out of some mistaken idea that God owes us for that obedience.

Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.

Go and read Romans 2... The "Gospel" is about the spiritually circumcised, those that obey the Law written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.

It is true, obedience is not about obeying the Decalogue. However, faith in Christ is MORE than about His work on the Cross, which the Scriptures tells us is for the sake of ALL men. EVERYONE. In Romans 5, as one man condemns all by his sin, so one man provides salvation to ALL men. But one must also have faith in obedience, an obedience to follow the teachings of Christ, which are much more detailed than merely "I am the Christ". Christ came to fulfill the law, not put it aside. He came to teach the fullest meaning of the Decalogue. Merely not killing someone but hating them in your heart is NOT following God's commands, according to Christ. Thus, you are sinning when you hate someone in your heart, despite "believing that Jesus is the Christ"...

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

I see you appear to be poisoning the well. Anyone who believes they must follow the commands of Christ is now a "legalist", lumped in with the Scribes and Pharisees...

If your claim to have read the Scriptures for 60 years is true, surely, you can see the difference between a person who follows the commands out of obedience to Christ in love and one who follows the letter of the Law but hates his neighbor, or follows the law out of some idea that God owes them.

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.

Read verse 12 again... LIVE BY THEM. Christianity is about loving. We love by outward expressions, not by merely saying "I believe in the Christ".

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.... And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. Matthew 7:21, 26

Note, Jesus speaks for 3 chapters on doing works of love. Prayer, fasting, turning the other cheek, loving our enemies, etc.... Clearly, this is what Jesus is speaking of when He says "every one that hears THESE sayings of mine and does them..."

For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.

This is utter nonsense. Because of Christ's work on the cross, we no longer have to worry about the Law??? Christ did not come to abrogate the Law. The New Testament over and over exhorts Christians to remain true to the Law - the Law of Love, which goes BEYOND the Decalogue. Christians are bound to an even MORE strict set of "Laws" - to the outsider. But to us, they are not a burden, as the OT Laws were to the Jews. We now have the Holy Spirit to aid us, to guide us, to vivify us.

You think we no longer have to love because of Christ's work on the cross????

John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Read the rest of John 3. You again conveniently proof text without taking the entire section into context, thus, you deviate from the intent of Sacred Scripture's teachings...

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:20-21

Belief and action are tied together... A person who truly believes will act upon that belief. A person who does not act does not really believe, but is merely saying "Lord, Lord..."

John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
"And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

Again, you cut out of context, cutting out part of the Gospel and the majority of Christ's teachings...

John has Jesus prepare the Apostles for what is to come. Not only with His Own Person, but with the Apostles...

These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. John 16:1-3

Jesus is about to be crucified, and He knows this. He is preparing the Apostles for the inevitable - and the inevitable persecutions that THEY will face. But what "things have I spoken unto you" is Jesus talking about? Is He talking about "merely believing I am the Christ"???

No...

As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and [that] your joy might be full. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:9-14

Jesus gives a COMMAND. To love. Not to only have faith in His future work on the Cross...

So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.

That is an inaccurate reading of Sacred Scriptures, as the Bible itself says that people were righteous even before they knew about the works of Christ on the cross... This righteousness is not "merely" obedience to the Jewish Law. It is a righteousness that is from within. A person who loves and fulfills God's Law out of faith, not out of some motive of making God owe them, or to just go through the motions of fulfilling ritual purity. Over and over, the prophets of the OT call the people to return to the meaning of the "Gospel". To not rend one's garments, but to rend one's hearts. To repent and return to God. Their faith should be working in love...

Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.
"rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.

This does not mean that the GOSPEL is ONLY about belief in the risen Lord's work on the cross. The Gospel is about love of others, a new life available to us now that the Spirit has been poured upon us. We have been given a free gift, and now, we are to share it. 2 Thess does not necessitate your description of the Gospel, nor does the Bible define the Gospel as ONLY belief in the Risen Lord - while ignoring the Commandments of God... (since only Christ is perfect...)

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19-20

OUR righteousness - powered by the Spirit, of course. NOWHERE does Jesus say that HIS righteousness, perfect as it is, will "cover" us, making our obedience to His commands unnecessary... That notion is entirely alien to ancient Christianity.

I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.

Rom 16:26-27 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith  to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever.

Obedience to the faith is understood as OBEYING THE TEACHINGS GIVEN. ALL of them. This INCLUDES what Christ taught over and over, as at the Sermon on the Mount. Paul teaches ALL of the Gospel, to include our faith working in love...

Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all [men], especially unto them who are of the household of faith. Gal 6:6-10

Indeed, God is not mocked by those who insist that we no longer have to obey God!!! That is the OPPOSITE reason why the Christ came and died...


Regards

 

[Adullam]

One is not a legalist if one believes in the power of grace to make one obedient to God's laws. One is a legalist if one believes that the law itself justifies. We do the will God through His working through us.

One who believes that belief alone saves one is ...well...still lost.

 

[RichardBurger]

It seems to me that most do not see Christ's work on the cross as being a completed work, a work to provide salvation to sinners who cannot, and will not, stop sinning as long as they live in a flesh body that sins. Some of these replies are nothing less than works that mankind does for the god of their imagination. Far to long the works crowd has used a book that was, clearly, wiritten to the Jews who were under the law, to burden the children of faith. Faith in Christ's shed blood on the cross. To me it is stupid to think that God does not know if we have placed our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Nowhere have I implied that a child of God will not love others as much as possible while still living in sinful flesh. But everyone ought to know that they do not and cannot love others ALL THE TIME.

I have learned that salvation is totally the work of God on the cross. It is ALL about what Jesus did on the cross. It is all about glorifying Jesus, not man. When men/women in Christianity glorfy their own works they take away from the work of God. True Christianity glorifies God's Son, not mankind. Religions are all about what man does for God and glorifies man's work in religion.

Religious men/women just simply can't accept that it is all about what God has done for mankind. It seems they must add their works to insure their salvation. In other words their salvation is based on Jesus' work on the cross, AND, their works. To me that is spiritual adulty.

 

[Adullam]

It seems to me that most do not see Christ's work on the cross as being a completed work, a work to provide salvation to sinners who cannot, and will not, stop sinning as long as they live in a flesh body that sins. Some of these replies are nothing less than works that mankind does for the god of their imagination. Far to long the works crowd has used a book that was, clearly, wiritten to the Jews who were under the law, to burden the children of faith. Faith in Christ's shed blood on the cross. To me it is stupid to think that God does not know if we have placed our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Nowhere have I implied that a child of God will not love others as much as possible while still living in sinful flesh. But everyone ought to know that they do not and cannot love others ALL THE TIME.

I have learned that salvation is totally the work of God on the cross. It is ALL about what Jesus did on the cross. It is all about glorifying Jesus, not man. When men/women in Christianity glorfy their own works they take away from the work of God. True Christianity glorifies God's Son, not mankind. Religions are all about what man does for God and glorifies man's work in religion.

Religious men/women just simply can't accept that it is all about what God has done for mankind. It seems they must add their works to insure their salvation. In other words their salvation is based on Jesus' work on the cross, AND, their works. To me that is spiritual adulty.

Did Jesus die for all sins? What about unbelief? Are there certain sins that Jesus didn't die for? Did not Jesus die for unbelief as well? So then does your position include only those who believe as you do...making you the judge?....or do you believe in universalism as your posts suggest?

If you look at your position logically, you believe in unconditional salvation.


How and where does one come up with that in the bible?

 

[Adullam]

If a player is kicked off the team for beating on the smaller players...and then asks for forgiveness and is given it....does this mean the coach agrees with the continuing beating of smaller players? The bully player has a conditional lease on continued membership with the team. He has to get his act together....no matter how merciful the coach is...or else the whole team will be rotten.

Grace is the means to overcome sin...not a general amnesty against all sin. We are responsible to walk in the Spirit....not in the flesh. The carnal mind cannot grasp this....it sounds impossible since the reasoning is according to human effort. Jesus did not die to cement in our carnal reasonings.

No, Jesus died and was resurrected so that we could walk as He did....in newness of life.


So many can only read the bible through their own carnal reasoning. The bible does not support carnal reasoning or human interpretation.

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Those who have not the power to overcome sin are not presently in the faith.

 

[francisdesales]

One is not a legalist if one believes in the power of grace to make one obedient to God's laws. One is a legalist if one believes that the law itself justifies. We do the will God through His working through us.

One who believes that belief alone saves one is ...well...still lost.

oh no, be careful, someone might turn around and call you a "catholic", too...

;)

 

[RichardBurger]

It seems to me that most do not see Christ's work on the cross as being a completed work, a work to provide salvation to sinners who cannot, and will not, stop sinning as long as they live in a flesh body that sins. Some of these replies are nothing less than works that mankind does for the god of their imagination. Far to long the works crowd has used a book that was, clearly, wiritten to the Jews who were under the law, to burden the children of faith. Faith in Christ's shed blood on the cross. To me it is stupid to think that God does not know if we have placed our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Nowhere have I implied that a child of God will not love others as much as possible while still living in sinful flesh. But everyone ought to know that they do not and cannot love others ALL THE TIME.

I have learned that salvation is totally the work of God on the cross. It is ALL about what Jesus did on the cross. It is all about glorifying Jesus, not man. When men/women in Christianity glorfy their own works they take away from the work of God. True Christianity glorifies God's Son, not mankind. Religions are all about what man does for God and glorifies man's work in religion.

Religious men/women just simply can't accept that it is all about what God has done for mankind. It seems they must add their works to insure their salvation. In other words their salvation is based on Jesus' work on the cross, AND, their works. To me that is spiritual adulty.

Did Jesus die for all sins? What about unbelief? Are there certain sins that Jesus didn't die for? Did not Jesus die for unbelief as well? So then does your position include only those who believe as you do...making you the judge?....or do you believe in universalism as your posts suggest?

If you look at your position logically, you believe in unconditional salvation.


How and where does one come up with that in the bible?

*****************

Preposterous! No where have I indicated that salvation is universal.

Jesus died for the sins of all the world but only a few believe it. Those that do not believe in His work on the cross are condemned and will not be saved. The Scriptures do not teach that a person can have salvation without believing in what Jesus did on the cross. Therefore, unbelief in the work of God on the cross is not forgivable. (see John 3:16-18)

I say what I believe. If it offends you then you ought to consider that making false accusations about what I write offends me as well. Your accusing me of judging others offends me since am judging no one. I am stating what I believe. Your attempt to tell others what I believe, when you don’t seem to have a clue as to what I am saying is offensive to me. If my writing what I believe is offensive to you then don’t read it. But you will not silence me.

 

[RichardBurger]

If a player is kicked off the team for beating on the smaller players...and then asks for forgiveness and is given it....does this mean the coach agrees with the continuing beating of smaller players? The bully player has a conditional lease on continued membership with the team. He has to get his act together....no matter how merciful the coach is...or else the whole team will be rotten.

Grace is the means to overcome sin...not a general amnesty against all sin. We are responsible to walk in the Spirit....not in the flesh. The carnal mind cannot grasp this....it sounds impossible since the reasoning is according to human effort. Jesus did not die to cement in our carnal reasonings.

No, Jesus died and was resurrected so that we could walk as He did....in newness of life.


So many can only read the bible through their own carnal reasoning. The bible does not support carnal reasoning or human interpretation.

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Those who have not the power to overcome sin are not presently in the faith.

So I take it that you think you are doing all the things you say others must do. Let me know when you have become perfect in the flesh. If you can't say that you are perfect in the flesh then why do you go around preaching to others that they have to become that way.

 

[francisdesales]

It seems to me that most do not see Christ's work on the cross as being a completed work, a work to provide salvation to sinners who cannot, and will not, stop sinning as long as they live in a flesh body that sins.

The problem with your point of view is that it goes too far, far beyond what the Scriptures say...

As Adullam states, it is the position of "unconditional salvation". Taken to its logical conclusion, no one will be in hell, since Christ's work MORE than makes up for Adam's universal sin. Are we in agreement on that point? That Christ's work was enough to make up for Adam's sin???

Thus, each is universal, both the sin of Adam and the salvation of Christ

However, Christ tells us that there are and will be inhabitants in hell - some who even CLAIMED to "know" the Lord (Mat 7:21). Thus, salvation cannot be unconditional. The position falls upon itself under a bit of scrutiny and knowledge of the Scriptures.

Salvation is conditional - upon what? Upon the response of man who has heard the voice of God. Does the "seed" fall upon the "soil" and is taken away? Or does the "seed" take root, only to dry up and die when subjected to the "ways of the world" or "persecution"? According to your methods, isn't the Spirit "powerful enough" to MAKE everyone accept the Word and automatically accept the salvation offered???

The answer is obvious. God OFFERS FREELY salvation. He has done this throughout the Scriptures. He doesn't force it upon anyone. He desires a relationship of reciprocal love, and this doesn't happen unless man CHOOSES, by the grace of God, to enter into a covental relationship with Him. Those who reject God are condemned. To reject God means one has the free ABILITY to do so in the first place.

To me it is stupid to think that God does not know if we have placed our faith in Jesus' work on the cross.

Yea, I wonder what God was thinking with Abraham and Isaac...

Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham": and he said, "Here [am] I". And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me". Gen 22:10-12

Apparently, God desired Abraham to perform the act, just the same - and he was righteous as a result of this act...

Nowhere have I implied that a child of God will not love others as much as possible while still living in sinful flesh. But everyone ought to know that they do not and cannot love others ALL THE TIME.

You imply that we don't HAVE to love, that Christ did all the loving necessary, so all we have to do is have faith that Christ loved enough, and go on our merry lives, murdering, raping, and stealing from other people, all the while claiming we are "saved from sin by the work of Christ".

I have learned that salvation is totally the work of God on the cross.

Christ died for ALL men. Are all men saved?

Religious men/women just simply can't accept that it is all about what God has done for mankind. It seems they must add their works to insure their salvation.

What is apparent is that you misunderstand the other point of view on the subject. Never once has anyone even remotely implied here that "their work...insure their salvation"

Our work does not insure anything. As my signature states, yet again I urge you to read it, we think nothing of the sort - and yet, we know we have been commanded by Christ to love as He did...

Regards

 

[Heidi]

The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)

Matthew 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.

Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.

Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Rom 11:30-32 (KJV)
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.

One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.

Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.

In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.

John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.

Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.

I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.

Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV

Their faith, not their works (verse 8)

Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith â€â€
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.

Which would you prefer? A wife you serves you because she loves you or a wife who serves you because she's required to? :gah

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus died for the sins of all the world but only a few believe it. Those that do not believe in His work on the cross are condemned and will not be saved. The Scriptures do not teach that a person can have salvation without believing in what Jesus did on the cross. Therefore, unbelief in the work of God on the cross is not forgivable. (see John 3:16-18)

You are confusing "disbelief" with "unbelief". Those who reject Christ are condemned, not those who never knew Christ. Scriptures do not clearly tell us that one must "believe in what Jesus did on the cross" to be saved - otherwise, you have just consigned billions of Jews of the OT to hell. Are you really ready to condemn billions to hell who never even HEARD of Christ - and yet, tell us that God is a just and loving God??? A person is born and condemned to die because they were born in 100 BC - and God is loving and just???

You are clearly missing out on the Gospel.

I say what I believe. If it offends you then you ought to consider that making false accusations about what I write offends me as well. Your accusing me of judging others offends me since am judging no one. I am stating what I believe. Your attempt to tell others what I believe, when you don’t seem to have a clue as to what I am saying is offensive to me. If my writing what I believe is offensive to you then don’t read it. But you will not silence me.

Nor will your false gospel silence us. The entire Scriptures do not support your interpretations...

Regards

 

[Heidi]

Scriptures do not clearly tell us that one must "believe in what Jesus did on the cross" to be saved - otherwise, you have just consigned billions of Jews of the OT to hell. Are you really ready to condemn billions to hell who never even HEARD of Christ - and yet, tell us that God is a just and loving God??? A person is born and condemned to die because they were born in 100 BC - and God is loving and just???

Wrong..very wrong. John 3;16-18, John 3:5-8, for starters. Belief in what Jesus did on the cross is the core of how people are saved. Jesus also tells us that few will find the narrow path. Mt. 22;14, "For many are invited but few are chosen."

And we don't condemn people, God does as he tells us all over both the old and NT testaments. So read Luke 12:47-49 to see that those who do not know their master's will will be beaten with few blows. So people who have never heard the gospel are absolutely going to hell. But then you also don't know that God chose only Israel to be in his kingdom as Psalm 147:19-20 and only the remnant of the Jews & the gentile elect whom God chose before the creation of the world are the real Israel as Romans 9:6-9 & Galtians 3:29 explain. God also tells us in many verses that there are Jews who are not real Jews. he also tells us in Romans 9:11-25 that HE does the choosing and he does NOT choose everybody which MT. 11:25-27 also confirms as do many other verses.

So it's your teachings that is false because you're not even on milk since you don't understand the basis of salvation, nor do you know the scriptures. You simply make up stories in your imagination that sound good to you. So you need to spend more time in the bible before you claim to tell others that their teaching is false. Until you do, you're not qualified to speak for God.

 

[mondar]

Preposterous! No where have I indicated that salvation is universal.

Jesus died for the sins of all the world but only a few believe it.

RichardBurger.....
Universal atonement, yet limited salvation based upon the synergism of mans faith.

Francis....
I think you correctly raise the issue of original sin? My gut feeling is that Richard will not go the path of Trent with prevenient grace. Westley took that path. I hope you do not let the point slide away. I dont know where RichardBurger will go with this, nor do I know where you will. But it will be amusing to see where two different but similar synergists go with this.

 

[Heidi]

Preposterous! No where have I indicated that salvation is universal.

Jesus died for the sins of all the world but only a few believe it.

RichardBurger.....
Universal atonement, yet limited salvation based upon the synergism of mans faith.

Francis....
I think you correctly raise the issue of original sin? My gut feeling is that Richard will not go the path of Trent with prevenient grace. Westley took that path. I hope you do not let the point slide away. I dont know where RichardBurger will go with this, nor do I know where you will. But it will be amusing to see where two different but similar synergists go with this.

I can guarantee you, if they consider themselves wise and learned, they'll head down the path of destruction as the bible tells us. ;)

 

[RichardBurger]

Jesus died for the sins of all the world but only a few believe it. Those that do not believe in His work on the cross are condemned and will not be saved. The Scriptures do not teach that a person can have salvation without believing in what Jesus did on the cross. Therefore, unbelief in the work of God on the cross is not forgivable. (see John 3:16-18)

You are confusing "disbelief" with "unbelief". Those who reject Christ are condemned, not those who never knew Christ. Scriptures do not clearly tell us that one must "believe in what Jesus did on the cross" to be saved - otherwise, you have just consigned billions of Jews of the OT to hell. Are you really ready to condemn billions to hell who never even HEARD of Christ - and yet, tell us that God is a just and loving God??? A person is born and condemned to die because they were born in 100 BC - and God is loving and just???

You are clearly missing out on the Gospel.

I say what I believe. If it offends you then you ought to consider that making false accusations about what I write offends me as well. Your accusing me of judging others offends me since am judging no one. I am stating what I believe. Your attempt to tell others what I believe, when you don’t seem to have a clue as to what I am saying is offensive to me. If my writing what I believe is offensive to you then don’t read it. But you will not silence me.

Nor will your false gospel silence us. The entire Scriptures do not support your interpretations...

Regards

You used the word "US" Are you ganging up on me?

 

[Adullam]

If a player is kicked off the team for beating on the smaller players...and then asks for forgiveness and is given it....does this mean the coach agrees with the continuing beating of smaller players? The bully player has a conditional lease on continued membership with the team. He has to get his act together....no matter how merciful the coach is...or else the whole team will be rotten.

Grace is the means to overcome sin...not a general amnesty against all sin. We are responsible to walk in the Spirit....not in the flesh. The carnal mind cannot grasp this....it sounds impossible since the reasoning is according to human effort. Jesus did not die to cement in our carnal reasonings.

No, Jesus died and was resurrected so that we could walk as He did....in newness of life.


So many can only read the bible through their own carnal reasoning. The bible does not support carnal reasoning or human interpretation.

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Those who have not the power to overcome sin are not presently in the faith.

So I take it that you think you are doing all the things you say others must do. Let me know when you have become perfect in the flesh. If you can't say that you are perfect in the flesh then why do you go around preaching to others that they have to become that way.

I thought we were trying to ascertain what the bible says. Can we not use the bible in these discussions?

 

[Adullam]

Are we to put our faith in a deed of Christ, or in Christ Himself?

Are we to trust our own faith in Christ or are we to have faith in Christ?

Believing that Jesus died for the sins of the world does not eternally save you unconditionally. Jesus dying for the world is a fact. One is never saved by believing facts. Facts help us along the way...to be sure, but there is a long way ahead before simple hearing of facts becomes true faith.

Are we to be judged by our faith or by our actions? Somebody please show us where we will be judged by our faith.

It isn't hearers of the law that are justified it is the doers of the law that are justified. Our faith makes it possible to ask God for the means of being obedient. The Holy Spirit is given to us for that.

 

[mondar]

Nor will your false gospel silence us. The entire Scriptures do not support your interpretations...

Regards

You used the word "US" Are you ganging up on me?

No worries from me, I can remain silent (and am not offended).

 

[francisdesales]

You used the word "US" Are you ganging up on me?

I don't see anyone else presenting your point of view, and there are two of us active in this thread who oppose your interpretations of Scriptures. Thus, the "us".

Regards