Ok - So Which Way???

[Fnerb]

I would say that as a result of grace - one is baptized as an expression of faith. I would not say that baptism - in and of itself is a means of grace or salvation.

As God, Jesus would not have any need of being baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Rather, Jesus provided an example for us to be baptized.

So I would surmise from this you would consider infant baptism worthless?

 

[Solo]

Infant baptism is meaningless from a salvation point of view because sprinkling a child with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does absolutely nothing for the infant's salvation.

Now if you want to speak about the parents dedicating the infant before the Lord promising to raise up the child in the admonition of the Lord so that the child may repent and believe as he/she is able to understand the truth of the word of God, then that is different.

Infant baptism has not ever nor will ever bring an infant into the Kingdom of God. No where in Scripture is an infant baptized.

 

[Jeff Mills]

Infant baptism is meaningless from a salvation point of view because sprinkling a child with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does absolutely nothing for the infant's salvation.

Now if you want to speak about the parents dedicating the infant before the Lord promising to raise up the child in the admonition of the Lord so that the child may repent and believe as he/she is able to understand the truth of the word of God, then that is different.

Infant baptism has not ever nor will ever bring an infant into the Kingdom of God. No where in Scripture is an infant baptized.

A great post Michael. Thank you. I think everyone should now have a clear view about infant baptism.

 

[Fnerb]

Infant baptism is meaningless from a salvation point of view because sprinkling a child with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit does absolutely nothing for the infant's salvation.

Now if you want to speak about the parents dedicating the infant before the Lord promising to raise up the child in the admonition of the Lord so that the child may repent and believe as he/she is able to understand the truth of the word of God, then that is different.

Infant baptism has not ever nor will ever bring an infant into the Kingdom of God. No where in Scripture is an infant baptized.

If we are sinful from birth (Psalm 51:5), and baptism is a “washing of rebirth†(Titus 3:5) and something that washes away sins (Acts 22:16) I fail to see how baptism is any less prevelent for a infant, small child or adult. If through baptism we put on the clean, holy robes of Christ’s righteousness (Galatians 3:27) I fail to see how we should deprive a child of that?

 

[Guest]

So I would surmise from this you would consider infant baptism worthless?

It would depend on what 'end' you are referring to 'infant baptism'.

If it is coming from the stand point of dedication to the Lord - then, I see no problem with the child being sprinkled.

Either Christ's death on the Cross secures our salvation or baptism does. Once we have been able to decide this issue, then the importance of baptism becomes clear.

 

[Guest]

If we are sinful from birth (Psalm 51:5), and baptism is a “washing of rebirth†(Titus 3:5) and something that washes away sins (Acts 22:16) I fail to see how baptism is any less prevelent for a infant, small child or adult. If through baptism we put on the clean, holy robes of Christ’s righteousness (Galatians 3:27) I fail to see how we should deprive a child of that?

Fnerb - why did Jesus get baptized?

Have you ever had a headache and someone say to you that you should "take an apsrin for a headache"? Clearly - they are not saying that you should take an asprin to get a headache. Rather, because you already have a headache, you should take an asprin.

Baptism is similiar in that because we are saved through Jesus Christ, we get baptised. The salvation is through the death and resurrection of Christ, not baptism.

 

[Fnerb]

Fnerb - why did Jesus get baptized?

Have you ever had a headache and someone say to you that you should "take an apsrin for a headache"? Clearly - they are not saying that you should take an asprin to get a headache. Rather, because you already have a headache, you should take an asprin.

Baptism is similiar in that because we are saved through Jesus Christ, we get baptised. The salvation is through the death and resurrection of Christ, not baptism.

I whole-heartedly agree - Christ saves, not the baptism. However, after reading the above scriputre, how can one argue that it's not a means of grace?

 

[Solo]

I whole-heartedly agree - Christ saves, not the baptism. However, after reading the above scriputre, how can one argue that it's not a means of grace?

God's unmerited favor upon those he love is called grace. Jesus dying on the cross for man's salvation is God's grace extended to mankind. Mankind being born again, born of God is also God's grace extended to mankind. The baptism of the Holy Spirit when one is filled with the Holy Spirit upon being born again is God's grace extended to mankind. Man following Jesus' example in water baptism to profess a belief in Jesus Christ is not God's grace but man's obedience to Christ.

 

[Veritas]

Solo, Isn't our obedience because of God's grace as well?

 

[Jeff Mills]

Sorry, but I have to smile when reading through these posts. We need to know what we are doing when getting baptised. Do you honestly think a baby knows what he/she is going through when they throw some water of the head?

Baptism actuallu is not even required to gte to Heaven. What the Christian really needs is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and they he can move in spiritual matter and not thinking wordly. I praise God for my Baptism in the Holy Spirit - I have never been the same since!

 

[Fnerb]

Sorry, but I have to smile when reading through these posts. We need to know what we are doing when getting baptised. Do you honestly think a baby knows what he/she is going through when they throw some water of the head?

Baptism actuallu is not even required to gte to Heaven. What the Christian really needs is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and they he can move in spiritual matter and not thinking wordly. I praise God for my Baptism in the Holy Spirit - I have never been the same since!

An infant needs Christ's redeeming work just as much as you or I do. If we know the Holy Spirit works through the sacriment of Holy Baptism, then how can we say that the Holy Spirit doesn't have the ability to work faith in an infant through it?

 

[Solo]

An infant needs Christ's redeeming work just as much as you or I do. If we know the Holy Spirit works through the sacriment of Holy Baptism, then how can we say that the Holy Spirit doesn't have the ability to work faith in an infant through it?

What happens to aborted babies or miscarried babies where neither is baptized?

What is God's character?

Is God one that would take the death of His Son Jesus Christ as payment for one of these who has not the capacity to act upon the word of God?

Is there an age of accountability?

Does sprinkling a baby with water bring him/her into God's Kingdom?

The Bible is not specific on any of these questions except there is not one instance of an infant being baptized in the Bible.

What happens after one believes that since he/she was baptized as an infant they are going to heaven; yet they have never been born of God through repentence and believing in Jesus Christ as the Bible teaches throughout?

 

[Fnerb]

What happens to aborted babies or miscarried babies where neither is baptized?

They are at the mercy of God.

Is God one that would take the death of His Son Jesus Christ as payment for one of these who has not the capacity to act upon the word of God?

So is there an age limit then? If this thought process is true, any child that is not old enough to profess the knows Christ is his savior is doomed.

The point i'm trying to make...

The Bible is not specific on any of these questions except there is not one instance of an infant being baptized in the Bible.

Exactly! We are told of no other way that God works saving faith in people other than through the means of grace, the gospel in Word and sacraments. We should never deprive children of baptism, "the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5).

Again, i'm NOT saying that just because you were baptized that you have your golden ticket punched and have a free-ride into heaven. My point is exactly as to what you say above - there is nothing in scripture that gives us an age limit on baptism.

I know that I as a parent would take comfort in the promises of baptism and will promptly (God willing) have any childeren I am blessed with baptised. For I would have them clothed in Christ (Galatians 3:27) as soon as possible.

I do not wish to limit the power of God by saying that an infant cannot benefit from baptism. Scripture tells us that the Holy Spirit works through it so I believe that the Holy Spirit can begin work in an infant.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

You guys are getting a wee bit off topic. :wink:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Does the bible actually TELL us which religion to follow? If it does, please quote exact scripture please!

How do we know? And how can we be sure we are not practicing false religion and idolatry?

So confused!

Mat 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.


Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me...



Ask the Lord where He wants you to go to church. Ask Him to confirm it to you when you have found it. Tell the Lord that you want to attend a church that follows true doctrine, and that teaches truth and righteousness. He knows where He wants you to be. Ask Him to silence the voices that are trying to confuse you and lead you astray.

 

[Jeff Mills]

An infant needs Christ's redeeming work just as much as you or I do. If we know the Holy Spirit works through the sacriment of Holy Baptism, then how can we say that the Holy Spirit doesn't have the ability to work faith in an infant through it?

Because one needs to know what they are doing when getting baptised. An infant does not know, and not only that, he/she doesn't even get a choice - poor thing! :D

 

[Fnerb]

Because one needs to know what they are doing when getting baptised. An infant does not know, and not only that, he/she doesn't even get a choice - poor thing! :D

First off, where in scripture does it say you need a testimony with baptism? And secondly, poor thing?! Baptism gives the washing of rebirth, washes away our sins and clothes us in Christ's righteousness...I hardly see how that warrents "poor thing".

 

[Rick W]

I would think we as parents can be held responsible in many areas concerning our children's path to God. It's our responsibility as parents to teach by example. It's our responsibility to teach them the paths to God.
Age of accountability?
We want there to be a clear and absolute dividing line. "No" on this side and "yes" on that side. But no such dividing line can exist. Even we as believers grow in the ways of God, we mature in Christ. It's a growing process that as time goes on they become more accountable and the parents less. If we as Christians continue to live our lives by example, not only for our children but others as well, then age of accountability becomes less of a concern.


John 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Do we give our children the words which God has given us? Do we keep them in His name? Here then is the accountability.

 

[Jeff Mills]

First off, where in scripture does it say you need a testimony with baptism? And secondly, poor thing?! Baptism gives the washing of rebirth, washes away our sins and clothes us in Christ's righteousness...I hardly see how that warrents "poor thing".

Hello my friend. Let us turn therefore to the Scripture to see hat does the Bible say about infant baptism?

There is much confusion about baptism in the various Christian denominations. However, this is not a result of the Bible presenting a confusing message on baptism. The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him (Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.

With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?

Many Christians who practice infant baptism do so because they understand infant baptism as the new covenant equivalent of circumcision. In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants, so baptism joined a person to the New Covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. This view is unbiblical. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant circumcision. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the New Covenant. It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy to blessings of the New Covenant (1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 9:15).

Baptism does not save a person. It does not matter if you were baptized by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling - if you have not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism (no matter the method) is meaningless and useless. Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience to be done after salvation as a public profession of faith in Christ and identification with Him. Infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism or the Biblical method of baptism. If Christian parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. However, even if infants are dedicated to the Lord, when they grow up they will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

 

[aj830]

Mat 19:13-14

Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked them, but Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, and do not prevent them; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

Just thought I would put that out there but I think we should get back on the OP topic.