Old Testament Saints; question for other Catholics

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Why do there seem to be no prayers to the Old Testament Saints?

Especially when we know Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, were assumed into Heaven!

Does anyone here ever ask for their intersession?

 

[ZeroTX]

Other than the Psalms, where are prayers listed in the Old Testament?... For that matter, other than the Lord's Prayer (Our Father), what prayers are listed in the New Testament?

-Michael

 

[francisdesales]

Other than the Psalms, where are prayers listed in the Old Testament?... For that matter, other than the Lord's Prayer (Our Father), what prayers are listed in the New Testament?

-Michael

Michael,

The Liturgy of the Hours, the daily prayer of the Church, has many readings from the Old Testament besides the Psalms. From time to time, also, the Liturgy of the Eucharist includes several of the OT saints that we pray with during the Mass. I think Abraham is the prominent OT saint in this regards, being the father of faith of the Jews.

If you consult the Liturgy of the Hours, you will find "Canticles" of Isaiah, for example. Sirach, Chronicles, Tobit and Deuteronomy also have commonly said prayers. I am sure there are other OT scriptures that Catholics say during the Liturgy of the Hours, but I am doing this from memory. There are several internet sites that allow you to pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily, and you will then see the various OT Scriptures that are recited.

Regards

 

[ZeroTX]

But are the Scriptures used actually written specifically as prayers? The OP is looking for prayer to saints in the OT Scriptures. It's not really a prayer book, as such (except the Psalms).

Also, I'm not entirely clear on the OT understanding of where souls go. I know that Christ changed that and that there is much contention between Christian groups on exactly what happens, but that Catholics do believe in the communion of the saints -- that is, that all Christians from all times are still united in the Body of Christ.

Looking forward to some expert opinion here Actually, an Orthodox Jewish opinion would be perfect, but doubtful we'll get that here!

God bless,

Michael

 

[francisdesales]

But are the Scriptures used actually written specifically as prayers? The OP is looking for prayer to saints in the OT Scriptures. It's not really a prayer book, as such (except the Psalms).

Yes, some are. For example, yesterday's Morning Prayer:

"Make music to my God with drums, sing to my Lord with cymbals.
Begin a new song to him, extol and call upon his name.
You are the God who crushes battle-lines, you set up your camp among your people, you save me from the grip of my persecutors.

I will sing a new song to God: Lord, you are great and glorious, wonderful in your unconquerable power.
Let all your creatures serve you, for you spoke and they were made,
you sent forth your spirit, and they were created: there is no-one who can resist your command.

For the mountains will be shaken to their roots, the seas will be stirred up, at your sight the rocks will melt like wax –
but to those who fear you, you will show your loving kindness."

This is called the "Canticle of Judith" from Judith 16.

Here is another, from today's Morning Prayer:

All you nations, listen to the word of the Lord, proclaim it in the farthest islands:
“He who scattered his people Israel has brought them back together. He will care for them as a shepherd tends his flockâ€Â.

For the Lord has redeemed Jacob and freed him from the hand of his conqueror.
They will come and sing praises on Mount Sion, they will flood in to receive the good things of the Lord,
grain, and wine, and oil, and the young of both herd and flock.
Their spirit will be like a richly watered garden, and they will hunger no more.

The young girl will dance for joy, young men and old men too.
“I will turn their weeping into gladnessâ€Â, says the Lord, “I will comfort them and give them joy after sorrow.
I will overwhelm my priests with rich food, and my good things will fill my people to overflowingâ€Â.

This one is the Canticle of Jeremiah, from Jeremiah 31.

There are others like it, as I mentioned before, sprinkled throughout the Bible.

Also, I'm not entirely clear on the OT understanding of where souls go. I know that Christ changed that and that there is much contention between Christian groups on exactly what happens, but that Catholics do believe in the communion of the saints -- that is, that all Christians from all times are still united in the Body of Christ.

I am not an Orthodox Jew, but I think I might be able to help.

The various groups at the time of Christ had different opinions of what happened to the souls of the righteous. Some believed there was no life after death, and that God rewarded man on earth in this life, either through them directly, or through their children. Most, however, believed in some sort of resurrection of the dead and a judgment based on one's deeds in life. 2 Maccabees in several places discusses the idea of a bodily resurrection and a judgment in the next life. Thus, even before Christ, it was a pretty common belief in life after death - but this was still pretty vague. Jewish Apocrypha also discusses the concept. Although not inspired writings, they indicate that life after death was not an uncommon belief.

As Christians, we believe that we will be united in heaven with the souls of the righteous, to include the OT men and women who had faith in God.

Hope this helps

 

[thessalonian]

Why do there seem to be no prayers to the Old Testament Saints?

Especially when we know Enoch, Moses, and Elijah, were assumed into Heaven!

Does anyone here ever ask for their intersession?

This is a good question. I do include the patrons of my children, Caleb, Abigail, and Sarah in my prayers. I do think that scripturally this might be part of the reason the Church does not emphasize praying to OT saints.

Luke.7
[28] I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John; yet he who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."

Just a thought.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Maybe it would be better to pray to a cannocized saint, whatever that is. Why don't people pray to Father God in the name of Jesus?



May God bless, golfjack

 

[thessalonian]

Re: reply

Why don't people pray to Father God in the name of Jesus?

Maybe because we do? Why do people ask others to pray for them golfjack. Why don't they pray directly to God himself (oh wait, they do both)? (pray means ask by the way). :-?

 

[golfjack]

reply

I will not pray to dead people, but I can pray with that are alive.





May God bless. Golfjack

P.S. Suggest you read the Epistle of Timothy where it talks about casting down immagnations.

 

[thessalonian]

I suggest you read Matthew:

Mtt 22:
32: `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Well let's see, I guess then Abraham, Issac, and Jacob were not dead if he was still their God. Hmmmmm. Maybe the saints in heaven aren't dead either. ;-)

 

[golfjack]

reply

Your Spin amazes me. Yes, their spirits and souls are in heaven. Absent from the body is to be with the Lord. Where does it say that we can pray to them?




May God bless, golfjack

 

[thessalonian]

Well let's see. It says that we are the body of Christ. 1 Cor 12, Romans 12. It says "nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even death, Rom 8 around v. 38, therefore nothing can separate us from other members of the body of Christ. 1 tim 2:1-4 says it is good to interceed for one anther and it is good to ask prayers from other members of the body of Christ. James tells us "the prayers of a rigtheous man avail much" and certainly there are none more righteous in heaven and so it is quite logical that we would ask our brothers and sisters in the body of Christ who have gone before us in to heaven to pray for us. If you need direct bible references I will be glad to give them. But you being so familiar with the bible surely know which passages I am referring to. Now how is that idolatry?

Do tell me where it says that scripture is the sole rule of faith. No spin now.

 

[thessalonian]

Re: reply

Your Spin amazes me. Yes, their spirits and souls are in heaven. Absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

By the way, you are agreeing with what I said. So how does that fit the definition of spin?

 

[thessalonian]

Re: reply

Your Spin amazes me. Yes, their spirits and souls are in heaven. Absent from the body is to be with the Lord.

By the way, you are agreeing with what I said. So how does that fit the definition of spin?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Nothing can separate us for the Love of God. Death nor life, Death is Physical death. The Bible says that our redemption draweth nigh. This means that we will have a brand new Glorified Body right after the rapture, or when the dead will rise first, then the living. ( 1 Thess. 4:14-17). When we are living , the Love of God cannot separate us. Neither can angels, principilities not powers, nor things present nor things to come ( devils territory). There is a Kingdom on earth and in heaven. The Kingdom on earth resides in us. The Kingdom of heaven is for the future. The living have no contact with the dead, not less you believe in John Edwards. When we die, we will know everybody there, reunited with our natural family, and serve God in a mighty way. Therefore, I still say it is not Biblical to pray with the dead or pray for whhat you call poor souls in Purgatory.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

My intention was not to Argue.

I did not start this thread with the intention of argueing, whether or not one should or should not pray for intersession of the saints in the first place.

But for the Record:

Catholics do pray to God the Father, in the Name of Our Saviour Jesus Christ, often, I do every day.


The primary difference between your thinking and ours is this,

in my opinion;

All of us who live in Christ Jesus, are prayer warriors, there are no dead people who are dumb and blind in Our Lord Jesus Christ. I personally don't think Heaven is floating around and strumming harps day and night. It's worshipping and praying at the foot of God's Throne, and for some perhaps even being sent out to fight spiritual warfare, against the evil powers, principalities, and wicked spirits in the spirit world, as the angels do. (Remember the Book of Daniel?) It's a strange idea to me that some people can't acknowledge the fact that Our Lord, may have work for you to do in Heaven, including providing intersession, for His people on the Earth!

I worship The Living God, that moves and works in this world, and the world beyond. When I am dead from this world, I will offer a prayer to The Most High, kneeling at His Throne, on the behalf of all who refuse to ask for intersession of their brothers and sisters in Christ, who live and work in Heaven!

I wasn't always a Catholic, and thought as many do, that prayers for intersession, were somehow arcane, dark, and dangerously wrong. I thank The Good Lord, for leading me out of the darkness of that flawed and prideful thinking.

 

[thessalonian]

The living have no contact with the dead, not less you believe in John Edwards.

Are you saying that those in heaven cannot hear or know what is going on here on earth. I think it's Ecc 5:9 or 9:5 that makes ref to this. No I don't believe that JE is contacting those in heaven. There is a problem scripturally with saying they cannot know what is going on or hear anything here from a new testament perspective.


Luke 15
7: Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Now how can their be joy without them knowing what is going on here on earth? Without hearing the repentence? Without God somehow communicating it to them. The verse in the OT makes sense for in the OT noone had entered in to heaven and had full access to God. But if one is to be honest this cutting off of those in heaven from knowing anything about those on earth doesn't make alot of sense in light of this passage.

Blessings

 

[golfjack]

reply

Don't you think that they are happy because someone on earth is saved? Anyway, this verse proves nothing, and at best is a smoke screen to pray for dead people.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[thessalonian]

Of course that is exactly what I think. But you say the dead can't hear our prayers. There is no communication between here and there. The verse you illude to is this.


Ecc 9
5: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost.

The point is that according to the verse you illuded to they cannot know that someone is saved.

The way you are applying this to those in heaven today, they cannot know anything that is happening on this earth. That contradicts the passage about joy in heaven. No smokescreen. There are no contradictions with my theology in these two passages.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Well Catholic Thelogy is way out there in dream land. I believe when we are in heaven we will have no memory of a loved being in hell.

I still don't get how a person can be saved without Jesus Christ. Tell me, is this your Catholic Thelogy?



May God bless, golfjack