One Church Or Two In Our New Testament?

[Terral]

Greetings:

Welcome to "The New Testament Churches Debate Thread."

This thread is dedicated to Debate over the differences between the Kingdom Bride Church (Matthew 16:16-19) AND Paul’s Grace Body (Ephesians 5:30) Mystery Church (Ephesians 5:32). My hypothesis and interpretations are based upon the conclusions that Peter, John and James are heads of the Jewish dominant Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) and Paul is the steward over the members of the Gentile dominant ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) under the ‘dispensation of God’s grace.’ Ephesians 3:2.

Please quote from either of these outlines and point out any errors using Scripture, OR present your own doctrinal outline for your 'one' New Testament Church.

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This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church was 'cut off' (Revelation 20:4) and will be revived again under Elijah (late rains = James 5:7) coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).
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I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18).

1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).
2. Lord seen betrothing the ‘bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20, John 3:29.
3. Kingdom Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:4.
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1 Peter 2:9.
5. Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10.
6. Kingdom Disciples continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:17-19, James 2:10.
7. Kingdom Church justified by works and NOT by faith alone. James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:1-6, Acts 1:5, Acts 19:1-3.
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19). Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6.
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized. Mark 16:15-16.
12. This Kingdom church is addressed by Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad†= James 1:1).

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This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
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II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24.

1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
2. Our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6, Ephesians 3:9.
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8.
4. Our church will judge the world and the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20.
6. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
7. Our church is justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. Grace Church started with Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15.
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30) Himself. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN†Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:1-4.
11. The brethren are saved by believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Ephesians 2:8-9.
12. This Mystery church is addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.
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Are there two different churches in the New Testament or just one? GL in the Debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[AVBunyan]

Nice work brother good references - stay at it - hope some folks join in for some discussion.

God bless

 

[Terral]

Paul's Mystery Body Versus Peter's Kingdom Bride

Hi AV:

Thank you for writing.

AV >> Nice work brother good references - stay at it - hope some folks join in for some discussion.

This is an exercise to help members of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:12) separate kingdom doctrine in the New Testament for the ‘bride’ (John 3:29) from grace doctrine for the ‘body’ (Colossians 1:24). The fact that these two lists of directly ‘opposing’ doctrinal components even exist in the New Testament is proof that these two churches exist also. This understanding helps people to realize that the famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15, Galatians 2) is between the heads of the Kingdom ‘bride’ (under Peter) and the Grace ‘body’ (under Paul). The reason for the meeting was so that Paul could submit the ‘gospel I preach among the Gentiles’ (Galatians 2:2), which he received through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Romans 16:25). Most people fail to realize that the people disturbing Paul’s Gentiles (Galatians 1:6-7) were “some of our number†(Acts 15:24) from Peter’s kingdom church. Peter and the other kingdom disciples failed to realize that Paul’s ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) was something totally new and separate from what they were doing through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for the prophetic kingdom bride. This is why James handed down the decision that the kingdom church was “not to trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles†(Acts 15:19), even though he wrote that kingdom Jews were to keep the whole Law (James 2:10).

The simple fact being demonstrated on this and the Two Gospels Thread ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ) is that Christ came in “water (kingdom) and blood (grace).†1 John 5:6. Your New Testament has a water witness (13 Kingdom Epistles) and a blood witness (13 Pauline Epistles) and the Book of Acts is the transitional veil falling between those two witnesses. Note that the references for the Kingdom Church #1 are dominated by the Kingdom Epistles, while the Mystery Church is filled with references from the Pauline Epistles. And yet, both have support from the Book of Acts. Scripture is laid out exactly like the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple:

Once you begin to see that Scripture is three witnesses of spirit (39 OT books = 3 witnesses enfolded into 1) water (Kingdom NT) and blood (Pauline Epistles), then the whole thing becomes "Living and Active" (Hebrews 4:12 = my signature verse). Paul’s Epistles represent the “Holy Place†or the “Soul†of Scripture that will eventually ‘sum up’ (Ephesians 1:9-10) everything from Genesis to Revelation like a tabernacle being spread over the spirit and water witnesses (God "all in all" = 1 Corinthians 15:28). This is a powerful teaching once you begin to see it and one that continues enlarging the rest of your life. Paul’s command to ‘rightly divide’ (2 Timothy 2:15 = cut straight) the word of truth is recognizing the two veils on either end of his own Epistles (Figure 1). : 0 ).

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[wavy]

No "church".

 

[Terral]

Please Explain What This Means Using Scripture

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing. Please explain what you mean by sending your two words:

Wavy >> No "church".

Are you saying that Wavy does not belong to any New Testament Ekklesia (#1577) or that no such thing exists in your Bible? Please explain using Scripture. Thank you in advance,

In “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24),

In Chris Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

Of course Terral, you and I differ on eschatology opinion, but I'm glad you started this thread and separated the 2 as you have. I will keep my replies to the differences between the 2 in a non eschatos setting.

I very much am under the opinion that the Church at Jerusalem under James is very different than the Church at Large as created by Paul. The points you declare above are the main talking points for that very point.

The Church (a descriptive name for the group of believers who believe that Jesus is the Messiah) at Jerusalem under James included all of the disciples who were taught by Jesus directly. These were Torah observant men. Jews who practiced Mosaic law under the freedom that Messiah provides. These men understood that Jesus didn't abrogate the Torah at his crucifixion and continued in their Jewish practices encouraging proselytes to do likewise.

The Church that Paul created, and as seen with your talking points above, are a blend of Gnosticism and Mystery religion (both strong influences at Tarsus), with a base in Judaism. Paul was all things to all men.....Most people don't like Paul to be picked on but, hey....., folks before you get upset with me, do the research. I won't say that Paul was a Gnostic, but he borrowed from Gnosticism. I won't say that he was believer in the Mystery religions, but he was a Hellenist who was bought up in a city that had a major history of Mystery religion influence. It's obvious that he borrowed here and there from the Mystery religions.

Which Church was/is right?

Type a search in wikipedia on "Pauline Christianity" for a very interesting article.

As Terral has shown....there is are some major differences in what the Church at Jerusalem under the leadership of James, and the Pauline Church believe and practice.

 

[Terral]

Please Remove the Gnostic Lingo From Your Testimony Of Paul

Hi George:

Thank you very much for writing on the Churches Debate Thread. I was beginning to wonder if separating kingdom and grace doctrine was a topic at all for the members of this Board. You wrote:

George >> Of course Terral, you and I differ on eschatology opinion, but I'm glad you started this thread and separated the 2 as you have. I will keep my replies to the differences between the 2 in a non eschatos setting.

Ah, ‘eschatos’ (#2079) meaning ‘extreme, to be in the last gasp, at the point of death.’ Very good.

George >> I very much am under the opinion that the Church at Jerusalem under James is very different than the Church at Large as created by Paul. The points you declare above are the main talking points for that very point.

You are a man after my own heart, George. : 0 ).

George >> The Church (a descriptive name for the group of believers who believe that Jesus is the Messiah) at Jerusalem under James included all of the disciples who were taught by Jesus directly. These were Torah observant men. Jews who practiced Mosaic law under the freedom that Messiah provides. These men understood that Jesus didn't abrogate the Torah at his crucifixion and continued in their Jewish practices encouraging proselytes to do likewise.

We agree. The kingdom disciples (Paul’s converts are called ‘brethren’ = Acts 18:27) saved under Peter's “gospel of the kingdom†were commonly said to belong to “The Way†(Acts 9:2, Acts 19:9, Acts 19:23, Acts 22:4, Acts 22:14, etc.). Paul persecuted this kingdom church, before his conversion and began building the ‘mystery’ church (Ephesians 5:32) through the “gospel I preach among the Gentiles†(Galatians 2:2) given him through a “revelation of Jesus Christ†(Galatians 1:11-12). The heads of these two kingdom (under Peter) and grace (under Paul) churches met in the famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15, Galatians 2).

George >> The Church that Paul created, and as seen with your talking points above, are a blend of Gnosticism and Mystery religion (both strong influences at Tarsus), with a base in Judaism

.

We disagree. Gnosticism of Paul’s day was practiced among the Greeks and something else entirely. Paul’s ‘the mystery’ (Ephesians 3:3) includes the things ‘hidden in God’ (Ephesians 3:9) and revealed ONLY in his Thirteen Gentile Epistles. God’s Mystery in Colossians 2:2 and the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:4, Colossians 4:3) and the “administration of the mystery†(Ephesians 3:9) are all subsets of the greater “The Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) itself.

George >> Paul was all things to all men.....Most people don't like Paul to be picked on but, hey....., folks before you get upset with me, do the research.

Every word uttered by Paul is the “Lord’s Commandment†(1 Corinthians 14:37-38) for the members of “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27) in the world today. Everything he writes was part of the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2 Corinthians 12:1) given to Paul directly from “Christ Jesus†over the span of his entire ministry. To pick on Paul is to try and pick on the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

George >> I won't say that Paul was a Gnostic, but he borrowed from Gnosticism.

No George. There is NOTHING in Paul’s Letters even remotely connected to Gnosticism. You are confusing the teachings of that sect with God’s Hidden Wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:7) revealed through the Apostle Paul. Paul received our Gospel through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Galatians 1:11-12) and NOT from any Gnostics part of your vivid imagination. Everything pertaining to “the mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) was “hidden IN GOD†(Ephesians 3:9) and not in the books of any of your imaginary Gnostics. The truth will be revealed that George is not privy to these things of the mystery from the Pauline Epistles, or you would NOT be carrying on this way about Gnosticism. Since those things remain hidden to George, then this became your fancy excuse to explain your own blindness.

George >> I won't say that he was believer in the Mystery religions, but he was a Hellenist who was bought up in a city that had a major history of Mystery religion influence. It's obvious that he borrowed here and there from the Mystery religions.

No sir. The only thing made obvious here is that George is carrying around a ton of Gnostic baggage in his attempt to explain away what he cannot see on this topic. Did you see any quotes from any Gnostics in my Opening Post? No. Every word of Scripture is God-breathed and inspired by God. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. There are no special rules for Paul’s Epistles or any other specific Bible writer. Paul uses the term ‘musterion’ (Mystery) twenty times to explain things previously hidden in God that he is NOW revealing, while Hebrews, Peter, John and James never use the term once in any Epistle bearing their name. The reason, as stated above, is that Paul is writing about things just now REVEALED under “The Mystery†umbrella, while Peter and the others are all describing Old Testament PROPHECY being fulfilled. The things Peter, John and James write for the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) WERE seen by the Prophets, but the things Paul describes for our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) today WERE NOT seen by any of them.

George >> Which Church was/is right? Type a search in wikipedia on "Pauline Christianity" for a very interesting article.

Heh. No sir. Read about the differences by looking up all of the references in the Opening Post (OP) of this thread. Wikipedia indeed . . .

George >> As Terral has shown....there is are some major differences in what the Church at Jerusalem under the leadership of James, and the Pauline Church believe and practice.

Yes sir; ‘major differences.’ That is why each numbered doctrinal component for each church in the OP contains an ‘opposing’ precept for the kingdom (#1) church under Peter and the grace (#2) church under Paul. Once begin you to see the differences in these two New Testament churches, then separating them from one another becomes second nature and very easy to do for yourself. However, this ‘Gnosticism’ lingo has no place in your testimony about the Apostle Paul. You are inferring that the things he writes were not the direct revelation of our Risen Lord Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[Georges]

Re: Please Remove the Gnostic Lingo From Your Testimony Of P

Hi George:

Thank you very much for writing on the Churches Debate Thread. I was beginning to wonder if separating kingdom and grace doctrine was a topic at all for the members of this Board. You wrote:

George >> Of course Terral, you and I differ on eschatology opinion, but I'm glad you started this thread and separated the 2 as you have. I will keep my replies to the differences between the 2 in a non eschatos setting.

Ah, ‘eschatos’ (#2079) meaning ‘extreme, to be in the last gasp, at the point of death.’ Very good.

[quote:247c1]George >> I very much am under the opinion that the Church at Jerusalem under James is very different than the Church at Large as created by Paul. The points you declare above are the main talking points for that very point.

You are a man after my own heart, George. : 0 ).

George >> The Church (a descriptive name for the group of believers who believe that Jesus is the Messiah) at Jerusalem under James included all of the disciples who were taught by Jesus directly. These were Torah observant men. Jews who practiced Mosaic law under the freedom that Messiah provides. These men understood that Jesus didn't abrogate the Torah at his crucifixion and continued in their Jewish practices encouraging proselytes to do likewise.

We agree. The kingdom disciples (Paul’s converts are called ‘brethren’ = Acts 18:27) saved under Peter's “gospel of the kingdom†were commonly said to belong to “The Way†(Acts 9:2, Acts 19:9, Acts 19:23, Acts 22:4, Acts 22:14, etc.). Paul persecuted this kingdom church, before his conversion and began building the ‘mystery’ church (Ephesians 5:32) through the “gospel I preach among the Gentiles†(Galatians 2:2) given him through a “revelation of Jesus Christ†(Galatians 1:11-12). The heads of these two kingdom (under Peter) and grace (under Paul) churches met in the famous meeting in Jerusalem (Acts 15, Galatians 2).

George >> The Church that Paul created, and as seen with your talking points above, are a blend of Gnosticism and Mystery religion (both strong influences at Tarsus), with a base in Judaism

.

We disagree. Gnosticism of Paul’s day was practiced among the Greeks and something else entirely. Paul’s ‘the mystery’ (Ephesians 3:3) includes the things ‘hidden in God’ (Ephesians 3:9) and revealed ONLY in his Thirteen Gentile Epistles. God’s Mystery in Colossians 2:2 and the Mystery of Christ (Ephesians 3:4, Colossians 4:3) and the “administration of the mystery†(Ephesians 3:9) are all subsets of the greater “The Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) itself.

George >> Paul was all things to all men.....Most people don't like Paul to be picked on but, hey....., folks before you get upset with me, do the research.

Every word uttered by Paul is the “Lord’s Commandment†(1 Corinthians 14:37-38) for the members of “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27) in the world today. Everything he writes was part of the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2 Corinthians 12:1) given to Paul directly from “Christ Jesus†over the span of his entire ministry. To pick on Paul is to try and pick on the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

George >> I won't say that Paul was a Gnostic, but he borrowed from Gnosticism.

No George. There is NOTHING in Paul’s Letters even remotely connected to Gnosticism. You are confusing the teachings of that sect with God’s Hidden Wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:7) revealed through the Apostle Paul. Paul received our Gospel through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Galatians 1:11-12) and NOT from any Gnostics part of your vivid imagination. Everything pertaining to “the mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) was “hidden IN GOD†(Ephesians 3:9) and not in the books of any of your imaginary Gnostics. The truth will be revealed that George is not privy to these things of the mystery from the Pauline Epistles, or you would NOT be carrying on this way about Gnosticism. Since those things remain hidden to George, then this became your fancy excuse to explain your own blindness.

George >> I won't say that he was believer in the Mystery religions, but he was a Hellenist who was bought up in a city that had a major history of Mystery religion influence. It's obvious that he borrowed here and there from the Mystery religions.

No sir. The only thing made obvious here is that George is carrying around a ton of Gnostic baggage in his attempt to explain away what he cannot see on this topic. Did you see any quotes from any Gnostics in my Opening Post? No. Every word of Scripture is God-breathed and inspired by God. 2 Timothy 3:16-17. There are no special rules for Paul’s Epistles or any other specific Bible writer. Paul uses the term ‘musterion’ (Mystery) twenty times to explain things previously hidden in God that he is NOW revealing, while Hebrews, Peter, John and James never use the term once in any Epistle bearing their name. The reason, as stated above, is that Paul is writing about things just now REVEALED under “The Mystery†umbrella, while Peter and the others are all describing Old Testament PROPHECY being fulfilled. The things Peter, John and James write for the kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) WERE seen by the Prophets, but the things Paul describes for our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) today WERE NOT seen by any of them.

George >> Which Church was/is right? Type a search in wikipedia on "Pauline Christianity" for a very interesting article.

Heh. No sir. Read about the differences by looking up all of the references in the Opening Post (OP) of this thread. Wikipedia indeed . . .

George >> As Terral has shown....there is are some major differences in what the Church at Jerusalem under the leadership of James, and the Pauline Church believe and practice.

Yes sir; ‘major differences.’ That is why each numbered doctrinal component for each church in the OP contains an ‘opposing’ precept for the kingdom (#1) church under Peter and the grace (#2) church under Paul. Once begin you to see the differences in these two New Testament churches, then separating them from one another becomes second nature and very easy to do for yourself. However, this ‘Gnosticism’ lingo has no place in your testimony about the Apostle Paul. You are inferring that the things he writes were not the direct revelation of our Risen Lord Christ Jesus.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral[/quote:247c1]

 

[Terral]

The Revelations Of The Lord (2Cor. 12:1) Were Given To Paul

Hi George:

Thank you for writing.

George >> History repeats itself......

Yes George. We are seeing a definite pattern to our conversations. This side quotes your every word and points out the Mythological aspects of your testimony and your side has no reply. You said,

George >> I won't say that Paul was a Gnostic, but he borrowed from Gnosticism.

That statement is just nonsense. Every word from Paul is just as ‘inspired by God’ (2 Timothy 3:16-17) as everything from every other Bible writer. The revelations of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 12:1, Galatians 1:11-12, Romans 16:25) given to Paul were of things “Hidden In God†(Ephesians 3:9), which Paul calls “God’s Wisdom in a Mystery†(1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (7)). Peter refers to this body of knowledge and wisdom (Romans 11:33, Ephesians 1:17, Colossians 1:9, Colossians 2:3) as the ‘wisdom given him,’ which the untaught and unstable distorted even today to their ‘own destruction.’ 2 Peter 3:14-16. All of this and everything taught concerning “the Mystery†(Ephesians 3:3) is knowledge and wisdom FROM GOD revealed through HIS SON, apart from anything penned by any Gnostics. Your personal attacks against Paul represent assaults on God and His Word based upon just another MYTH (2 Timothy 4:4) from your bag of tricks.

Thank you for writing and for the opportunity to point that out once again,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

Paul says the church is built upon the apostle"s†(plural) and not upon himself Eph. 2:20

Peter when writting of the letters of Paul makes no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other 12 apostles 2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16

Peter tells us Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message 2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16 Peter preached salvation by the blood of Christ in 1 Pet. 1:2, salvation by mercy in 1 Peter 1:3, the new birth in 1 Peter 1:3, eternal security 1 Pet. 1:3-4

In Acts 15, Peter and Paul agreed on the gospel. Paul makes it clear in Galatians 1 that preaching a different Gospel was cursed, if what Peter preached was different then Paul and belong to a different church, Peter would be placed under the curse for preaching a different Gospel.

We can all say AMEN to 1 Cor. 15:11-14.

Peace,

JM
ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM,

 

[Terral]

Paul's Mystery Body Versus Peter's Kingdom Bride

Hi JM:

Thank you very much for writing.

JM >> Paul says the church is built upon the apostle"s†(plural) and not upon himself Eph. 2:20

Paul is the ‘steward’ of this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) given to him for the Gentiles. Your statement is made completely out of context to this discussion and you did not even quote the verse properly.

“So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the capstone (head of the corner), in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.†Ephesians 2:19-22.

The ‘apostles’ are those ‘sent’ with the gospel back in Paul’s day all over the known world (Romans 1:8) in this ‘temple of the Lord’ being built together “into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.†The ‘body of Christ’ has been enlarging since Paul’s day all over the world, but the church in Jerusalem was ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) with the destruction of the Temple back in 70 AD. If you wish to challenge anything about my ‘two churches’ hypothesis in the Opening Post, please “quote that†and offer your argument using Scripture. I am not even sure if your point here tries to refute anything in that OP. However, if you cannot even quote any errors from my presentation, then everything up there remains standing. Note that I am placing your name atop my post AND quoting every word you say that is errant AND offering rebuttal testimony using God’s Word. Please do the same for me . . .

JM >> Peter when writting of the letters of Paul makes no distinction between Paul’s teaching and the teaching of the other 12 apostles 2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16

What point are you trying to make and against what position from the Opening Post??? Peter is addressing the ‘chosen race’ and the ‘royal priesthood’ (1 Peter 2:9) in his letters. That is a far cry from the “apostle of Gentiles†(Romans 11:13) teaching grace doctrine. Paul is the one submitting the ‘gospel I preach among the Gentiles’ (Galatians 2:2) to this same Peter (Galatians 2:9) in Acts 15 at the meeting in Jerusalem. If they are all preaching the same gospel, then Paul had nothing to present. Peter has been preaching repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and teaching that “baptism now saves you†(1 Peter 3:21). Paul says that Christ did not send him to baptize (1 Corinthians 1:17) but that by ‘one Spirit’ we are all baptized into the ‘one body’ (1 Corinthians 12:13). Peter gives the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands (Acts 8:17) for the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12). Paul teaches that we receive the Spirit by ‘hearing with faith.’ Galatians 3:2. The two churches are described using opposing doctrinal precepts in the Opening Post of this thread. Your "Paul makes no distinction" comments refutes NOTHING in the OP. Please try again . . .

JM >> Peter tells us Paul wrote to the same people and preached the same message 2 Pet. 3:1-2, 15-16

No sir. Peter says that Paul wrote to the same people addressed by his letters, but Paul was sent to the Gentiles AND the sons of Israel (Acts 9:15). Paul is preaching the ‘gospel of the grace of God’ (Acts 20:24 = Paul’s gospel) for the 'body' (Ephesians 5:30) AND ‘preaching the kingdom’ (Acts 20:25 = gospel of the kingdom) to the ‘bride.’ You appear to be assuming that these thirteen canonized Epistles are all that Paul wrote over the thirty to forty years of his ministry. We should speculate that Paul spent a great deal of his time writing letters, because he sat for years behind bars with no other avenue to address anyone. Your blanket assumption here does not mean anything . . . The doctrinal components of the Opening Post remain standing . . .

JM >> Peter preached salvation by the blood of Christ in 1 Pet. 1:2, salvation by mercy in 1 Peter 1:3, the new birth in 1 Peter 1:3, eternal security 1 Pet. 1:3-4

Being ‘sprinkled with His blood’ (1 Peter 1:2) is not obeying Paul’s gospel that is “according to the revelation of the mystery.†Romans 16:25. Peter is preaching repentance and water baptism for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38) and NOT forgiveness in Christ’s shed blood. His “baptism now saves you†(1 Peter 3:21) speaks against your assertion. If he is indeed preaching Christ’s shed blood for salvation, then that was the perfect time to let the cat out of the bag.

JM >> In Acts 15, Peter and Paul agreed on the gospel.

No sir. Paul was sent through a revelation to ‘submit the gospel I preach among the Gentiles’ (Galatians 2:2). Paul’s gospel is called the “gospel to the UNcircumcised†and Peter’s is the gospel ‘to the circumcised.†Galatians 2:7. Your assertion is that Peter is preaching the ‘gospel to the Uncircumcised’ in Acts 2 and to JEWS ONLY. Acts 2:14, Acts 2:22, Acts 2:36. Please explain how that works . . .

JM >> Paul makes it clear in Galatians 1 that preaching a different Gospel was cursed, if what Peter preached was different then Paul and belong to a different church, Peter would be placed under the curse for preaching a different Gospel.

Paul’s statements about the gospel revealed to Him through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ in NO WAY changes the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Matthew 24:14, Acts 8:12) that John the Baptist (Matthew 3:1-6) and Christ and the Twelve preached long before Christ died for anyone. The ones disturbing Paul’s Gentiles were indeed “some of our number†(Acts 15:24) from Peter’s Kingdom bride church who were trying to add ‘circumcision’ (Acts 15:1, Acts 15:4) to Paul’s Gospel. That meeting led to the decision for Paul and Barnabas to continue going to the Gentiles, while Peter, John and James continued going to the 'circumcised.' Galatians 2:8. I explain the differences between the two gospels of the NT here ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 *). The fact that you ‘interpret’ something out of Galatians 1 a certain way DOES NOT transform those eight opposing doctrine precepts into the same thing. If you wish to make a case for your ‘one gospel’ theory using Scripture, then please be my guest.

JM >> We can all say AMEN to 1 Cor. 15:11-14.

Your suggestion is that Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2) is the ONLY gospel of the New Testament. I have to say “suggestion,†because I have yet to see one solid paragraph of commentary from you yet on any Bible topic. Even this baby post represents a few lines strung together with a few verses attached. Here is your problem: Paul’s Gospel is Gospel #2 from that link above*, but Christ came straight out of the box preaching the ‘gospel of God’ (Mark 1:14-15 = Gospel of the Kingdom = Gospel #1 from the Gospels Thread) long before He died for anyone right behind John the Baptist.

“John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.†Mark 1:4-5.

“Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15.

Are you going to try and prove that the ‘gospel of God’ John the Baptist and Christ are preaching here is ‘Christ and Him crucified?’ Christ says right here that the “time is fulfilled†AND the “kingdom of God is AT HAND.†He says that Israel (Matthew 15:24) was to ‘repent and believe in the gospel.’ Here is the foolishness of your interpretation right here: Scripture clearly says that Christ is preaching “the gospel†in Mark 1 AND the women will not even come to the tomb until Mark 16:1. If Satan had known about Paul’s “Christ and Him crucified†(1 Corinthians 2:2) gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:3-4), then he would have laughed in God's face and never crucified the Lord of Glory (1 Corinthians 2:6-8). Therefore, IF Paul’s gospel is preached here in Mark 1 (NOT), then how are you going to prove that Satan does not understand it? In fact, the women go and tell the disciples that “He Has Risen!,†but NONE of them believer them (Mark 16:10-11). Then two from the disciples go and tell the rest and they do not believe them either (Matthew 16:12-13). How are you going to prove that this ‘one gospel’ is the ‘gospel of God’ in Mark 1, when even Christ’s Elect did not believe Paul’s gospel themselves? Good Luck.

The ‘one gospel’ theory is A MYTH that cannot be proven using God’s Word, because that is quite IMPOSSIBLE. If Paul’s gospel that Christ died for our sins AND God raised Him from the dead (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) is the ONLY GOSPEL, then the term “gospel†should only be found in Scripture AFTER the crucifixion. Therefore, you have to invent some pretty clever excuses for the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ references that appear throughout the Four Gospels. The truth is that everyone in the Four Gospels and Acts preach the kingdom (Acts 20:25), which is the ‘gospel of the kingdom,’ but the only ‘gospel’ of the Pauline Epistles is Gospel #2 from my Gospels thread or Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel that you think is the ‘only’ gospel. You have yet to make space in your theology for the Gospel of the Kingdom that Christ Himself preached straight out of the box that Israel rejected. The two churches of the OP of this thread were gathered through BOTH of these gospel messages, but each to a different ‘dispensation.’

Please try to find one errant statement from the OP of this thread or the Gospels thread and we will have something to Debate. Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

Here is Terral's defense against an excellent post:

I am not even sure if your point here tries to refute anything in that OP.

:

You are kidding right? You can't tell if he is refuting anything in your OP. It is obvious to all but you.

Terral once again says that if you don't put your post in his own prescribed format, as if he has such authority to impose such rules, he will say, nah, nah boo boo you didn't quote me so my post stands. Perhaps you can identify some of these other apostles you claim there are? This grandstanding method you use makes some of us wonder about you more than a bit. :o

 

[Terral]

Please Send Your Chat Elsewhere

Hi Thessalonian:

Thank you for writing. Were you able to find anything errant in the Opening Post of this thread to quote and show errant using Scripture? Please keep trying . . .

Thessalonian >> You are kidding right? You can't tell if he is refuting anything in your OP. It is obvious to all but you.

No sir. You see your own name atop my post and the precise statement I am addressing right there, because I placed your name atop the post AND quoted your statement to give my statements context. Starting a new page and rambling with one line statements make NOTHING obvious to anyone. When one of you actually “quotes†from my hypothesis or outlines or conclusions and presents a case using Scripture (2 Timothy 2:15), then perhaps the point you are trying to make using so few words will become obvious to somebody. These silly little love letters only serve to show that my debating opponents on this thread are not very knowledgeable about this topic. : 9 (.

Thessalonian >> Terral once again says that if you don't put your post in his own prescribed format, as if he has such authority to impose such rules, he will say, nah, nah boo boo you didn't quote me so my post stands.

This side of the Debate has enough common Biblical sense to know when his hypothesis is being challenged in the Opening Post. If you guys want to ‘quote nobody >>’ and talk about something else then go right ahead, but that affects NOTHING in the Opening Post. You and JM are my debating OPPONENTS and the combined opinions of all my adversaries on this topic means nothing. Perhaps somebody here is capable of quoting from my outlines and presenting a solid case using Scripture, but that somebody has yet to write on this thread to date.

Thessalonian >> Perhaps you can identify some of these other apostles you claim there are? This grandstanding method you use makes some of us wonder about you more than a bit.

Heh . . . There is no grandstanding going on here partner. My ‘two churches’ hypothesis in the OP is standing tall against no opposition at all. Nobody has yet to even “quote >>†anything; must less refute something.

If you cannot quote anything from the OP and offer rebuttal testimony OR provide us with your “one church†doctrinal outline, then please send your chat elsewhere. Stone throwers have no credibility with anyone and among them you are king. There is nothing for you here. GL.

Thank you for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

:

 

[wavy]

Re: Please Explain What This Means Using Scripture

Hi Wavy:

Thank you for writing. Please explain what you mean by sending your two words:

Are you saying that Wavy does not belong to any New Testament Ekklesia (#1577) or that no such thing exists in your Bible? Please explain using Scripture. Thank you in advance,

In “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24),

In Chris Jesus,

Terral

Well, if you really want to know...

See "Wavy's Views" (signature). Check #15. :-D

 

[Terral]

More Clowns Than A Three Ring Circus

Hi Wavy:

Wavy >> Well, if you really want to know... See "Wavy's Views" (signature). Check #15.

No. Please forgive. I thought you had something to add to this thread. My bad . . .

Here are the two outlines teaching the two churches of the New Testament for page two of this Debate.

--------------------
This is NOT our church for today and nobody has become a Kingdom Disciple under the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ for almost 2000 Years. This church was 'cut off' (Revelation 20:4) and will be revived again under Elijah (late rains = James 5:7) coming to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11).
--------------------

I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18).

1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).
2. Lord seen betrothing the ‘bride’ by the OT prophets. Hosea 2:19-20, John 3:29.
3. Kingdom Church based in Jerusalem. Acts 8:1, Acts 11:22, Acts 15:4.
4. Destined to become a kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:6) ‘holy nation,’ and ‘chosen race.’ 1 Peter 2:9.
5. Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:10.
6. Kingdom Disciples continue under Mosaic Law, until heaven and earth passes away. Matthew 5:17-19, James 2:10.
7. Kingdom Church justified by works and NOT by faith alone. James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom church started with John the Baptist. Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:1-6, Acts 1:5, Acts 19:1-3.
9. Disciples received three baptisms (Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Matthew 28:19). Acts 8:12-17, Acts 19:1-6.
10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.
11. Kingdom disciples must believe AND be baptized. Mark 16:15-16.
12. This Kingdom church is addressed by Peter, John and James (“twelve tribes dispersed abroad†= James 1:1).

------------------
This is our Mystery Church of today described only in the Pauline Epistles. We shall be caught up to the Lord (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) comes (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
------------------

II. Grace Body Mystery Church. Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24.

1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.
2. Our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) not seen by the OT Prophets. Ephesians 3:4-6, Ephesians 3:9.
3. Grace Churches are all around the known world. Romans 1:8.
4. Our church will judge the world and the angels. 1 Corinthians 6:2-3.
5. Our citizenship is in heaven. Philippians 3:20.
6. We are under grace and NOT under law. Romans 6:14.
7. Our church is justified by faith APART from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. Grace Church started with Paul on the road to Damascus. Acts 9:15.
9. Brethren receive only ‘one baptism’ (Ephesians 4:5) by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30) Himself. 1 Corinthians 12:13.
10. Members of the body have eternal security “IN†Christ Jesus. Ephesians 4:30, Colossians 3:1-4.
11. The brethren are saved by believing the gospel without adding works. Romans 1:16-17, 1 Corinthians 1:21, Ephesians 2:8-9.
12. This Mystery church is addressed by the Apostle Paul ONLY in Scripture. 1 Corinthians 14:37-38.
---------------------

Are there two different churches in the New Testament or just one? GL in the Debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[thessalonian]

10. Members of the bride DO NOT have eternal security, but must ‘endure to the end.’ Matthew 24:13.

So if I might ask is Eternal Security a missapplication of John 3:16?

 

[JM]

Terrel, please quote your sources. According to rule #11 you must quote your sources. Your answers sound exactly like the rhetoric of Pastor Terry McLean from Discerning The Times Publishing. Didn't think I listened did ya, :wink:

http://www.discerningthetimespublishing.com/main.htm

 

[thessalonian]

Terral,

Do those who use John 3:16 and John 10:28 as justification for Eternal Security missusing those verses?

For the record I don't hold to ES.

 

[Terral]

All Commentary Is My Commentary Of God's Word

Hi JM:

Thank you for writing.

JM >> Terrel, please quote your sources. According to rule #11 you must quote your sources. Your answers sound exactly like the rhetoric of Pastor Terry McLean from Discerning The Times Publishing. Didn't think I listened did ya,

My sources are quoted in the OP of this thread; like 1 Corinthians 1:18 and so on. You will not find Terral quoting third party commentary from anybody, because mine is considered far better than theirs. : 0 ).

If you find anything errant in the Opening Post, then please “quote that >>†and point out the errors using Scripture. GL.

In Christ,

Terral