One Church Or Two In Our New Testament?

[cj]

Re: Paul's Mystery Body Versus Peter's Kingdom Bride

Your opinions about ‘one’ this and ‘one’ that do not mean anything, unless you care to “quote >>†something from the Opening Post and challenge that using Scripture.

Young saint,.... only someone who knows little about the intent of God in His creation would make such a silly statement when speaking on a Christian forum website.

Please . . . obviously your sentences above are not the product of ‘good writing.’ If you are going to try and prop up a premise, then at least use something from Scripture. Attack anything in the Opening Post by “quoting that†and offering any supported arguments you like.

Young saint,.... I was in no way referring to post on these boards, including the silliness in the opening post.

I was though referring to God's written word. But I guess one needs to be a little less self-absorbed to see this.

(snip ‘high ground’; meaningless to this discussion)

Young saint, if you would like to have a discussion all on your own then let us know.

If you do wish to have a discussion with others then don't be a spoilt brat and presume to edit the speaking of others in an off-handed manner.

Yes, the “kingdom†church (Matthew 16:16-19, Matthew 18:17-18) located in Jerusalem. That is doctrinal component #3 for Church #1. Paul’s churches were Gentile dominant (Romans 11:13) and were scattered all over the known world (Romans 1:8 = #3 for Church #2).

Young saint,... you just exposed your weak scriptural understanding,

Is there some rhyme or reason for your rambling? Are you addressing ANYTHING presented in the Opening Post of this thread? No. If you cannot “quote me >>†and refute anything from my ‘two church’ hypothesis OR present your own ‘one church’ doctrinal outline (good luck), then this rambling really does not mean anything.

Young saint, scripture says that your own words condemn you, if I want to expose the foolishness of your speaking I just need to get you to speak.

Please go and start a thread about whatever you are trying to talk about, which has no context to anything on this topic. To send me a long list of your personal ‘I believe’ statements and NO SCRIPTURE makes no sense whatsoever.

Young saint,... this is an open forum, don't go telling folk where to go.

I would like to quote where one thing you said attacked any of my positions, but you never got around to doing that in your post. Just “quote me >>†and show the errors from either or both of the doctrinal outlines provided in the OP, OR present your ‘one church’ outline and we will have something to debate.

Young saint,... I have no desire to debate with silliness. But I will speak against it.

Folks? Heh. Stop grandstanding and try to address the ‘topic’ of this thread. Your “Folks†are smarter than you think and they require interpretations based upon Scripture apart from one sentence lines of “I believe†testimony based upon nothing. Do we show ourselves approved to God by rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), OR by standing on your soapbox and chatting with the folks? Maybe your next reply should be drafted with your Bible open. Please try again . . .

Young saint,... "Folks" a gook word for people, and last I checked it was people who read these boards. Or maybe you think they're all dummies.

In Christ,

Young saint,... Positionally you may be, but your speaking sure as hell isn't.


Tell you what though, I going to stick around an see if you give yourself to figuring out how what I said is most certainly related to the errors of your opening post.



In love,
cj

 

[Terral]

Please Quote Me And Point Out Errors Using Scripture

Hi CJ:

Thank you for writing.

CJ >> Tell you what though, I going to stick around an see if you give yourself to figuring out how what I said is most certainly related to the errors of your opening post.

If you find one error in anything in the Opening Post of this thread, then “quote that >>†and present your opposing views using Scripture. Do you see only one church in the New Testament? Great! Please provide a similar doctrinal outline for your New Testament Church. You might include:

I. CJ's Church Name. Chapter: Verse.

1. How were they saved? C and V . . .
2. Did the OT prophets see your church?
3. Was your church based in Jerusalem like Peter’s or everywhere else like Paul’s?
4. Are your church members described as ‘priests’ like Peter’s (1 Peter 2:9) or do they judge the world and the angels?
5. Your church members seek a kingdom on earth ‘as it is’ in heaven OR are they citizens of heaven now?
6. Are they under Mosaic Law, or under grace and not under law?
7. Are they justified by works or by faith apart from works?
8. Did your church start in the Four Gospels with Peter OR with Paul on the road to Damascus?
9. Do your church members have three baptisms or just one?
10. Does your church have eternal security like Paul’s or do they ‘endure to the end’ like Peter’s?
11. Do your members believe AND get baptized in water OR just believe the message of truth without works?
12. Do Peter, John and James address your church or just Paul or does everyone write to them?

If you will provide a simple outline answering these questions, or including your own doctrinal components, then we will definitely have something to Debate that applies to the topic of ‘this’ thread. Or, quote from mine and show errors.

Thank you again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[yesha]

I am hesitant to enter this debate because I do not have the time.
That said, your first point:

I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church.
1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).

23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

II. Grace Body Mystery Church
Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

8For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

Paul preaches the gospel of God 2cor 11:7.
Peter preaches the gospel of God 1pet 4.17.
Are you suggesting that these gospels are different?

gal 2.7 On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

This suggests to me that they are preaching the same gospel to different people.

eph 3.6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

This verse suggests to me that both Jews and Gentiles share in the same promises, both receive the same inheritance, and are both in the same body. When you talk about two churches, do you also mean two bodies?

heb 12:2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I assume you believe Heb to be written to the 'kingdom church' or whatever you called it. If so, they too talk about the cross.

 

[Terral]

Israel Stumbled Over Christ

Hi Yesha:

Thank you for writing on the Churches Debate Thread.

Terral Original >> I. Kingdom Bride Prophecy Church. 1. Gathered through the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, Matthew 9:35, Acts 8:12).

II. Grace Body Mystery Church 1. Gathered through obedience to Paul’s ‘word of the cross’ (1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel. 1 Corinthians 15:3-4.

Yesha >> Paul preaches the gospel of God 2cor 11:7. Peter preaches the gospel of God 1pet 4.17. Are you suggesting that these gospels are different?

Paul is not preaching any Gospel in 2 Corinthians 11:7. He is teaching ‘doctrine’ to the Corinthians about his gospel. Peter also is not ‘preaching’ anything in 1 Peter 4:17, but he is asking a question. I show the differences between the two gospels of the New Testament here ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ) if you wish to join that Debate. Peter is ‘preaching’ the gospel of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14) in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost, when commanded Israel to repent and be baptized for the ‘forgiveness of your sins’ (Acts 2:38); just like John the Baptist in Mark 1:4. Let’s not confuse ‘teaching’ church doctrine with ‘preaching’ a gospel message.

Yesha (snip Galatians quote) >> This suggests to me that they are preaching the same gospel to different people.

You are willing to make that kind of judgment by comparing bible verses, instead of by comparing the long list of doctrinal precepts for each of those gospel messages. This side of the Debate is not so reckless, as God’s Word is very precise and requires us to ‘accurately handle’ (2 Timothy 2:15 = rightly divide) the word of truth.

Yesha >> (snip Ephesians 3:6) This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

No sir. Paul does not mention “Israel†in this chapter, but Jews and Gentiles are being added to the same ‘one body’ (Ephesians 2:16, Ephesians 4:4). We are baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27) Himself, but there is no such thing as Jew or Greek “IN†Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28). Paul teaches the difference, saying,

“What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.†Romans 9:30-32.

Paul teaches that Israel is blind to these things (Romans 11:25) and that they have received a ‘spirit of stupor’ (Romans 11:8) and eyes to see not and ears to hear not (Romans 11:8-10) and so forth. You are too quick to toss believing Christians in Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace†(Ephesians 3:2) in with unbelieving Israel. Paul is teaching that believing Jews AND Gentiles are members of the same ‘mystery is great’ church (Ephesians 5:32).

Yesha >> This verse suggests to me that both Jews and Gentiles share in the same promises, both receive the same inheritance, and are both in the same body. When you talk about two churches, do you also mean two bodies?

No sir. If you read the Opening Post, then you would not be asking this question. Peter’s kingdom church (Matthew16:16-19) is saved by obedience to the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matthew 4:23, etc.) and is called the ‘bride’ (John 3:29). Paul’s mystery church (Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24-27) is saved by obedience to his “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message and is called “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27).

Yesha >> (snip Hebrews 12:2) I assume you believe Heb to be written to the 'kingdom church' or whatever you called it. If so, they too talk about the cross.

Talking about the cross and being saved through obedience to Paul’s ‘my gospel’ (Romans 16:25) are two very different things. Please head over to the two gospels thread and note the differences between those two gospel messages. Paulââ¬â„¢s Epistles are written ‘to’ the members of “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24), and Hebrews – Revelation are written ‘to’ the kingdom disciples living through the upcoming restored Kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7) on this earth. They will use everything in Hebrews with their Levitical Rituals in and around the Temple (Ezekiel 40 +) of those days.

In Christ,

Terral

 

[Scott]

It seems to me the main problem with this thread is a difference of debating styles, formal vs. casual. Most users in this forum are used to debating casually, just responding to another's post. Its apparent Terral wants this to be a formal debate, while those who've responded are just casually responding to his ideas. One of two things must happen here for this thread to be productive and not one big argument. Everyone must be willing to debate this formally or Terral must be a little less stringent on how others respond to his ideas. I really don't care which way you all decide to go with but this thread will be locked if you can't come to a compromise. Also, please be respectful of each other. There is a way to argue against someone's point without being disrespectful. Please use tact.