Open Discussion on Courtship/Dating...

[modernnihilst]

I think the difficulty, for those without the benefit of the intimidation factor of 8-10 pro fighters , is balancing the teens freedom to be a moron(hey we all were) and the parent wanting to protect/gaurd the teen from being too moronic. Its a balancing act at best, and a cause for all out hostilities in the worst case. If it works for Handy then I would say she has found the balance point between too much and not enough parental influence.

 

[Mike]

I want to say something that will likely be misinterpreted, but I'll say it anyway. The decisions that seem so tough as a parent were so simple before I was a parent.

I absolutely do not want to dissuade young members or those who aren't parents from posting here. This is a good thread, and I love to hear all POV's. And it's probably true that these decisions aren't difficult for everyone, so this isn't to say anyone doesn't know what it's like. I pray every single morning for God's Wisdom as a parent; for Him to Help me lead them in His Ways, but they're still difficult. For me, the responsibility He has Placed on my heart is like nothing I'd ever known before.

So, before I was a parent, and especially when I was 16, it was easy to say I'd let my children date and do other things one day. I imagine we will let them go on dates alone, but this will never come without concern and decisions made based on the particular circumstances. Even when they are out on their own, I imagine it will be rough for me to stop being "that dad".

And to think that my love for them is but a fraction of His Love for us is too much to apprehend. I get emotional when I try. *sniff*

 

[handy]

Yeahhhh, I'm that mom.

 

[Nick]

You bring up the need for couples to have private time. As I've said, we do allow our daughter private time with a boyfriend, in the sense that the two of them can sit out on the patio, where they can be seen but not heard. Conversely, there have been times when we've sat out on the patio and allowed her and her not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau to sit at the dining room table and chat. Also, when going to movies or to a restaurant, it's expected that she and her date would sit in a different part of the theater or dining room, within sight, but not right there with us.

And, we don't ask her what she discusses with her boyfriends when alone with them. As a matter of fact, I've told her that it's important in a relationship to not discuss with others what is said in private, unless there is something really wrong.

Is there any reason why this isn't enough privacy for two people who are not engaged? Keep in mind, we aren't going to allow our daughter to become engaged with anyone (with the possible exception of the not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau) while she is under 17.

Ok. That's not so bad.

Just some curious questions. Does she decide where and when she wants to go out with a male friend? When this kind of situation arises, what process do you guys go through? I guess I'm trying to see you and Steve's level of involvment in Viola's friendships.

I'm genuinely curious. Assuming I have a family, I want to raise my kids in the most Christ-like manner possible. I'm tryingto juggle the ideas of personal freedom, privacy, 'letting go' with controlling and directing your kids' lives to what you deem the best choices. I guess my current thinking is they need to learn how to make their own choices and learn to accept them.

(I should add that if the not-boyfriend-but-nonetheless-important beau does ask her to marry him prior to her being 18, not likely, but possible I suppose, we would indeed allow them to go out on their dates without chaperonage.)

Indeed.

I'm assuming this guy is grocery-boy?

 

[Navigator]

I totally agree.

Dora (and others) I understand your desire to raise your children in a protective environment for as long as possible. And I agree that we need to be raising our kids in a Christian home and raise them in Christ.

However, I believe there needs to be a time where the teen can make their own choices and needs to understand how to handle more freedom. Letting them learn this when they go off later on particularly in college may not be a good idea. Teens need to deal with their hormones with the support of parents and family, but not the restirctions and protections of them.

Teens are charged with hormones. Until I came on this forum, I never ever heard that suppressing their hormones is a good idea. Teach them self control. Teach them the Christian way. Give them a bit of trust. I'm pretty sure I would've blown a fuse if my parents had insisted on chaperognes, certainly beyond 16.

I'll post what I wrote in the teens forum recently...

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with courtship, in fact it is definatley a good prelude for engagement. I see courtship as better and more Biblical than dating. I've always seen courtship as somethinlg more serious and with a longer-term understanding and intention than dating, although I dont' really have much against dating.

My parents have similar views, although I am yet to date or court a girl. It just hasn't happened yet, but I pray for a partner.

In terms of spending time alone with your partner (unmarrioed) I know many on this form, espcailly handy (sorry handy) that would not allow their kids to really be alone prior to perhaps 17 or 18 for fear of sexual temptation.

I would hope that in Christian circles by the age of 16 or 17 (max) the two people in the relationship would have enough maturity and hojpefully trust from their parents to be able to date ie have idnner, movies etc alone. I am a big believer in the privacy of the individual and a cuuple, particularly when it comes to these types of things. A couple can only really get to know each other, and know if they are suitible to get married (which should generally be the purpose of courtship) if they can spend time togther - and only together.

Now don't get me wrong, I first-handed know the realities of sexual temptation. Tod deal with this bit, I believe in the fellowship and teachings of the parents and church rather than direct supervision by parents.


---

Dora, have you considered that Viola may wiish more freedom in making her own choices, or at least being able to spend some quality time alone with a good friend?

Said in Love.

This response reminded me of another point that I had that MAY influence your decision, but may not. 18 is up Viola's senior year of high school correct? I'm not saying Viola will go out and "party hard" or what have you...when she goes off to college. From what you've told me, your daughter seems like a responsible young lady. But freedom, especially new-found freedom, is a powerful thing for an adolescent youth.

You won't be there to chaperon your daughter in college. One of the main reasons I've chosen NOT to engage in certain things in college: (i.e. going to parties/drinking, etc.) is because I was affected by these in high school through the people I chose to hang out with. Like Nick said, I understand all of your concerns. But....college is a whole other animal, and trying to put myself in your shoes...I think I would rather have my daughter going out on dates alone with boys when I'm 30 minutes or less away and my daughter has to come home to me (which will be on her mind), than when she's in college, possibly hours away from me for 3/4 of the year.

 

[Navigator]

I want to say something that will likely be misinterpreted, but I'll say it anyway. The decisions that seem so tough as a parent were so simple before I was a parent.

I absolutely do not want to dissuade young members or those who aren't parents from posting here. This is a good thread, and I love to hear all POV's. And it's probably true that these decisions aren't difficult for everyone, so this isn't to say anyone doesn't know what it's like. I pray every single morning for God's Wisdom as a parent; for Him to Help me lead them in His Ways, but they're still difficult. For me, the responsibility He has Placed on my heart is like nothing I'd ever known before.

So, before I was a parent, and especially when I was 16, it was easy to say I'd let my children date and do other things one day. I imagine we will let them go on dates alone, but this will never come without concern and decisions made based on the particular circumstances. Even when they are out on their own, I imagine it will be rough for me to stop being "that dad".

And to think that my love for them is but a fraction of His Love for us is too much to apprehend. I get emotional when I try. *sniff*

Oh I'm so protective of my Mom and siblings now...I can't imagine how I'll be when I have my own child. They won't be leaving the house until 18 let alone going out on dates

But in all seriousness...I'll be praying for you guys so God let's you know what the right ways to handle these situations are. It's daunting for me and I'm not even a parent.

 

[handy]

Where she and her dates go and what they do is up to them.

The one thing about chaperoning is that they have a lot of freedom to do pretty much whatever they decide to do. Knowing that someone is coming along for the duration tends to make those choices be pretty innocuous. She's gone cherry picking, to local fairs, to movies, to a local water-slide park, an arcade...all pretty much standard high school date stuff. Plus, there's no time-limits or curfews...we've spent an entire day, not getting home until almost midnight, on a few of her outings. My personal experience with curfews is that whatever can happen after 11:00 can happen before. :gah

I suppose that if it ever came up that a date wanted to take her to say, a rated R movie (equivalent to your R18+), we'd have a discussion...but so far that hasn't come up.

I'm assuming this guy is grocery-boy?

Yep. ;)


Navigator,

I'm not sure that college is in our daughter's future, she's not exactly the academic type, but even if she doesn't go to college, we'll want to her go out and experience some kind of further education (like a culinary arts school) or at least move away and gain her own experiences. So, even if the college atmosphere isn't in her future, she'll eventually find herself in situations where she's going to have to make decisions...

Hopefully, we're instilling in her the ability to make good choices and discernment...which we do by lots of open conversation and discussions about her own choices and the choices some of her friends and acquaintances make. We also share with her some of our own choices that we've made and experiences we've had. Like the time when I was 13 and at a party, and one of my friends got drunk and had sex with a guy in front of everyone. Ruined that friendship, to be sure.

By the time she's 18, she'll be mature enough to handle making these decisions on her own. High school is a time of severe peer pressure and that diminishes greatly once one is beyond high school.

I truly don't believe that either of the kids will go all wild when it comes to getting out on their own. Will they wind up at parties where drugs and sex are taking place... most likely. But, when they do, I want it to be when they have a certain level of maturity and are not as subject to peer pressure, as opposed to me, who faced it at 13. I was just too young for it...no, it didn't spur me into too bad of behavior, (although I did drink at the party, but not much and certainly didn't get drunk)...but I had a hard time handling the fall out...having to tell my friend what she did because she was so drunk she didn't remember, then being on "pregnancy watch" for two weeks and the stress we felt about what to do if she was pregnant...what to do about telling her parents...all that. I was just too overwhelmed at that age to deal with it.

 

[Hanna]

Just wanted to say that I'm reading along with interest...trying to be open minded and teachable :toofunny

 

[handy]

You know Hanna, you might try asking your mom and dad if they would be open to chaperoning dates with you and your bf...

 

[Sparkey]

I'm currently going to college (yep, even at my age) and there are lots of examples of what I, as a parent, would be afraid to see happen to one of my loved ones. There are also many young people in the 'Headstart' program who take college classes while they are still in high school (even at 16). These kids (for the most part) have good heads on their shoulders and I know of quite a few who are a quiet witness of Christ in their lives.

I can only imagine what homelife is associated with each choice the kids make but it only makes sense that kids who are loved and cared for have less reason to go out and try to fill a void in their life. It isn't just sexual activity that I'm talking about but something that goes deeper; some seem to have greater respect for themselves.

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Hi parents! This topic interested me so I wanted to put my say in. Please parents, TALK TO US ABOUT THIS STUFF! Tell us WHY you don't want us dating this person and please give us actual reasons besides "he's too old" or "he's a bad influence" Give examples from what you have seen like "He was not respectful of us" because as teenagers we love to argue and telling us "he's too old" or "he's a bad influence" that is basically handing us ammunition to argue.

Yeah we really don't know as much as you so please share what you know. Tell us "Well when I was your age I was in a simialr situation and this happened, I don't want the same thing to happen to you" Please be honest with us.

I am speaking from experience. I dated this one guy and my parents didn't like him and when I asked "why" they gave me a bunch of lame exscuses with no explanation and it made me like him that much more.:shocked! So yeah...that's my rant. :D

 

[handy]

Rant noted!

Seriously, you bring up some very good points! In defense of parents, let me just say that it's harder than you now realize to articulate some of the reasons why we, as parents, look at a potential suitor and say...."no way!" And, absent excellent articulation, yeah, our responses do indeed come out lame.

But, that doesn't mean that the objections aren't valid. Believe me, as you get older, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Soo, even though your parent's reasons might sound lame... consider giving them a break and exercising Ephesians 6:1 and trusting them. ;)

 

[Jesusfreak97]

Rant noted!

Seriously, you bring up some very good points! In defense of parents, let me just say that it's harder than you now realize to articulate some of the reasons why we, as parents, look at a potential suitor and say...."no way!" And, absent excellent articulation, yeah, our responses do indeed come out lame.

But, that doesn't mean that the objections aren't valid. Believe me, as you get older, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Soo, even though your parent's reasons might sound lame... consider giving them a break and exercising Ephesians 6:1 and trusting them. ;)

Well for one I don't know what it's like to be a parent but I do know it's difficult to say what you mean but it can be really hard for teenagers to understand when you are trying to look out for us because it looks like you're just doing it to be mean. Just from our perspective.

Let's say I want to date this guy parents say no I think that parents are mean and unreasonable when really this guy might be a druggie and getting drunk every other weekend. But I am not going to see the bad side of this guy because to me he is all sweet and nice and he makes me feel good. To me he is Mr. Wonderful. And also as a teenage girl, I want to be valued. A boy who comes up to me and startes telling me nice things and how I'm special that will cloud my judgement because he has made me feel important.

I am going to get a little Biblical here, this is why I think parents also need to get it in to their daughtes brains that NO MAN CAN MAKE THEM COMPLETE! NOT EVEN THE ONE THEY ARE GOING TO MARRY! ONLY JESUS CAN DO THAT! I had to learn that on my own.

So yes, while we do need to trust our parents sometimes that is hard, especially for us girls because our judgement is clouded. Can you kind of see that? I am feeling an odd parallel to our relationship with God here, just throwin' that out there...;)

 

[Navigator]

Where she and her dates go and what they do is up to them.

The one thing about chaperoning is that they have a lot of freedom to do pretty much whatever they decide to do. Knowing that someone is coming along for the duration tends to make those choices be pretty innocuous. She's gone cherry picking, to local fairs, to movies, to a local water-slide park, an arcade...all pretty much standard high school date stuff. Plus, there's no time-limits or curfews...we've spent an entire day, not getting home until almost midnight, on a few of her outings. My personal experience with curfews is that whatever can happen after 11:00 can happen before. :gah

I suppose that if it ever came up that a date wanted to take her to say, a rated R movie (equivalent to your R18+), we'd have a discussion...but so far that hasn't come up.

Yep. ;)


Navigator,

I'm not sure that college is in our daughter's future, she's not exactly the academic type, but even if she doesn't go to college, we'll want to her go out and experience some kind of further education (like a culinary arts school) or at least move away and gain her own experiences. So, even if the college atmosphere isn't in her future, she'll eventually find herself in situations where she's going to have to make decisions...

Hopefully, we're instilling in her the ability to make good choices and discernment...which we do by lots of open conversation and discussions about her own choices and the choices some of her friends and acquaintances make. We also share with her some of our own choices that we've made and experiences we've had. Like the time when I was 13 and at a party, and one of my friends got drunk and had sex with a guy in front of everyone. Ruined that friendship, to be sure.

By the time she's 18, she'll be mature enough to handle making these decisions on her own. High school is a time of severe peer pressure and that diminishes greatly once one is beyond high school.

I truly don't believe that either of the kids will go all wild when it comes to getting out on their own. Will they wind up at parties where drugs and sex are taking place... most likely. But, when they do, I want it to be when they have a certain level of maturity and are not as subject to peer pressure, as opposed to me, who faced it at 13. I was just too young for it...no, it didn't spur me into too bad of behavior, (although I did drink at the party, but not much and certainly didn't get drunk)...but I had a hard time handling the fall out...having to tell my friend what she did because she was so drunk she didn't remember, then being on "pregnancy watch" for two weeks and the stress we felt about what to do if she was pregnant...what to do about telling her parents...all that. I was just too overwhelmed at that age to deal with it.

Well one thing I will say that isn't necessarily my opinion, but rather some research that I've learned from a few human development classes I'm taking: children who have a warm home environment which encourages discussions, are the most likely to be the most motivated to reach their goals and more focused on where they are going in life...so you've done a fantastic job in that respect :yes

 

[Navigator]

Rant noted!

Seriously, you bring up some very good points! In defense of parents, let me just say that it's harder than you now realize to articulate some of the reasons why we, as parents, look at a potential suitor and say...."no way!" And, absent excellent articulation, yeah, our responses do indeed come out lame.

But, that doesn't mean that the objections aren't valid. Believe me, as you get older, you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Soo, even though your parent's reasons might sound lame... consider giving them a break and exercising Ephesians 6:1 and trusting them. ;)

I will say, if you get in an argument with your kids, please try to give real reasons, not the "because I said so" line. I know kids should trust their parents, but if they are old enough to practice in a solid argument, don't underestimate their intelligence by pulling that line out

That was one of my biggest complaint as a kid.

 

[Mike]

IMHO, there's a fine line between my children requiring an explanation for our decisions and wanting them. I want to give them reasons so they can see the danger I'm trying to head-off, but sometimes I don't necessarily believe that they are due them. Sometimes I know the reasons are beyond what they are able to visualize today.

To those who aren't parents, is it ever enough that your parents make a decision without demanding a reason why? Honestly, do you feel you are always due them?

 

[Nick]

IMHO, there's a fine line between my children requiring an explanation for our decisions and wanting them. I want to give them reasons so they can see the danger I'm trying to head-off, but sometimes I don't necessarily believe that they are due them. Sometimes I know the reasons are beyond what they are able to visualize today.

To those who aren't parents, is it ever enough that your parents make a decision without demanding a reason why? Honestly, do you feel you are always due them?

If it affects me directly, such as what we're talking about here, then yes.


Seriously, why not? And no lame answers :D

 

[Jesusfreak97]

If it affects me directly, such as what we're talking about here, then yes.


Seriously, why not? And no lame answers :D

I agree! :D

Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk

 

[Sparkey]

If it affects me directly, such as what we're talking about here, then yes.


Seriously, why not? And no lame answers :D

Why should children respect the authority that God gave to their parents over them? Why should they obey God and respect their father and their mother? Seriously? Is that what you're asking here?

If you're saying that you'd like to have a say in your life, well, that's a different matter. But if you believe that children have the right to demand a satisfactory answer to their every question and lacking it, get to do what ever they want? Actually, I don't believe that of you, Nick.

But try arguing with any kid. Don't wait until you get one of your own, just find a niece or nephew and tell them they can't do something they want to do. Then reason with them but stand firm on your decision. Oh, and no "lame" responses either. Make sure that everything you say is perfectly logical and reasonable but let them know the condition that your "the boss of them" only if they agree with you and your reasons are to their complete satisfaction. Let me know how it goes, okay?

My mom once (well, more than once) said, "I hope that when you get older you have a child just like you!" I thought I understood her, but I didn't. Not until much later when I had a child like me.

 

[handy]

My mom once (well, more than once) said, "I hope that when you get older you have a child just like you!" I thought I understood her, but I didn't. Not until much later when I had a child like me.

I once told Viola...when she was being particulaly aggravating....

"I hope Joe doesn't marry you, because I really like him and he doesn't deserve YOUR payback child!!!"


I've always tried to maintain the principle that any child's question deserves an honest, age-appropriate answer.

"Because I said so" is certainly honest (for all children are to obey their parents)....but, I'm willing to concede that it's not age appropriate for teens and young adults.

"I have my reasons, they are valid, and you're just going to have to trust me and respect my wishes on this one" is an age appropriate answer for anyone...really no matter what age.

Part of growing up is recognizing that we don't always get 100% satisfactory answers about things. God certainly doesn't fill us in on all the details...and life circumstances don't either...neither do employers...

Sometimes, and I agree that it should be fewer times rather than more often, we just need to go with the "lame" answer. How much grace and respect this is done with is a measure of maturity.

:nod