Opposing the death penalty.

[YosefHayim]

It does say "One Nation Under God".

Which one? The freemasonic one, like horus on the dollar bill?

weak argument if you are going to use that for laws then you must also not call the cops nor file a complaint for theft, rape and so forth. remember to forgive in that context as you say it must mean if they ask, its done. no punishments and always mercy.

This is a strawman, because this is not at all what I'm implying. There is only one thing that I stated opposition to: death penalty. Nowhere did I say there should not be jail, fines, etc.. Nor am I condoning the activity (before that gets erroneously assumed here).

The thing is, we don't have God coming down with clouds today like at mount Hermon saying "execute this man". Nor do we have Jesus Christ appearing to people as he did to Paul on the road to Damascus. So yes, people should be in jail. (Am I saying that we can't witness supernatural occurances, or hearing the voice of God? No.)

And as for forgiveness, I don't think Jesus made any exclusions. There are plenty of verses talking about blessing and loving your enemies.

 

[jasonc]

Which one? The freemasonic one?



This is a strawman, because this is not at all what I'm implying. There is only one thing that I stated opposition to: death penalty. Nowhere did I say there should not be jail, fines, etc.. Nor am I condoning the activity (before that gets erroneously assumed here).

The thing is, we don't have God coming down with clouds today like at mount Hermon saying "execute this man". Nor do we have Jesus Christ appearing to people as he did to Paul on the road to Damascus. So yes, people should be in jail. (Am I saying that we can't witness supernatural occurances, or hearing the voice of God? No.)

And as for forgiveness, I don't think Jesus made any exclusions. There are plenty of verses talking about blessing and loving your enemies.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/17/supreme.court.teen.lifers/index.html

a rapist . pedophile will not be calling what you did very merciful inside a 4x4 cell for the rest of their lives worrying if they will be shanked all the time.so you wouldn't turn an person in for a crime knowingly that they might be executed for a crime ?

 

[reba]

Some folks think/believe it is OK to make use of the benefits of military and politics but is ungodly to be part of them?
So much of the history in the Scriptures is both military and politics

 

[jasonc]

the victim has the right to ask the court for mercy. does jesus say well all the time they ask or just when the repent. no, he meant whether they ask or NOT they are to be forgiven.paul also mentions something about courts in Corinthians that is similar to the beth din of Judaism. the church handles divorces, legal matters amongst believers. but that applied only to each other and not the lost.

 

[jasonc]

I believe in the first time, yes, let the person go if possible but if they have a history of it? no mercy, they go to jail. I can forgive them and knowingly make sure they don't harm another or take anothers life. I have forgiven the man who raped my sister. he deserves the death penalty for that.

 

[YosefHayim]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/17/supreme.court.teen.lifers/index.html

a rapist . pedophile will not be calling what you did very merciful inside a 4x4 cell for the rest of their lives worrying if they will be shanked all the time.so you wouldn't turn an person in for a crime knowingly that they might be executed for a crime ?

Remember David comitted adultery and killed a man? He was forgiven. It was God who executed the proper judgments. Not man.

This is the worst "what if" attempt. You're also making gross exaggerations. There's the reason they have plenty of authorities and procedures to make sure that doesn't happen. A person can just as much worry a death sentence will go wrong and they'll have to suffer as well.

Unfortunately, I would have to turn them in for a crime. If a person is guilty of a rape or murder, clearly they should be in jail. I would not want them on the streets. While Paul met Jesus Christ and saw him, that doesn't happen today. So you can't determine the conversion of a person. I would hopefully take the opportunity to preach the Gospel to them. If I could find a way to lessen the severity of their punishment that they may not take that sentence, I would do it. However, it isn't in my jurisdiction to take the life of an individual.

However this question: "so you wouldn't turn a person etc.," is nothing more than a "what if" to find a cause. It's practically a loaded question. If I say yes or no, I look bad either way.

My friend got caught with a selling amount of weed. He could have faced jail for some time. Because of the grace Christ showed me, I volunteered to help him with his $3000 dollar fine.

I myself once had a dream in which I was trapped in a jail, with a list of sins in my hands. Some were thoughts, some were actions. And then I was brought out of the jail and I praised Jesus in the dream.

My point of this thread really wasn't say that there should be no punishment. What I am saying that I know the saving and changing grace of the Lord Jesus Christ which is manifested in many and because of that I see the death penalty as a loss of opportunity to plant seeds.

 

[reba]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
Rom 13:6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

 

[YosefHayim]

Some folks think/believe it is OK to make use of the benefits of military and politics but is ungodly to be part of them?
So much of the history in the Scriptures is both military and politics

I don't think a Christian should fight a war either. Wars are fake. The only real wars were commanded by God. Todays wars are not for freedom. I appreciate the thoughts of soldiers "dying for my freedom," but I don't really believe that's what they are doing. Both sides of the past wars were funded by the same people. If Christians knew prophecy, and what is going on in war I don't think they would take part either.

Who died for my freedom? Jesus Christ.

 

[jasonc]

now then that is your view , try mine. it takes 20 years for a man to die in my states. david gore killed on lady, and rape another. the later lived, the former he raped twice then killed. the dead was done in 1978, he was executed in 2010. do the math. he claimed jesus, but the some have said tis jailhouse salvation. people in jail wouldn't lie to be free from a sentence. if one is going to quote something about david then do so with the whole verse. david was forgiven by god correct, but well a new born, died, he lost two sons, and also his wives and two friends. abiathiar and also joab whom he ordered not to kill abasalom. I would call that being forgiven and reaping what he sowed. david regretted that decision till he died.

 

[reba]

Well i hope you are honest in your believes , Dont call the cops if you have a problem .. When the bad guy wants to break in your home step back an let 'em in...
Wars are so bad we should have let Hitler kill every, Christian, Jew .. So fake those guy on Normandy.. ..

 

[jasonc]

I don't think a Christian should fight a war either. Wars are fake. The only real wars were commanded by God. Todays wars are not for freedom. I appreciate the thoughts of soldiers "dying for my freedom," but I don't really believe that's what they are doing. Both sides of the past wars were funded by the same people. If Christians knew prophecy, and what is going on in war I don't think they would take part either.

Who died for my freedom? Jesus Christ.

I will keep in that mind when I see you in heaven or you see me in my uniform dead. sure not all wars are good. but I will say this if this was Germany. I wouldn't be alive to be born, if others who didn't fight against that evil I wouldn't be alive either.

 

[YosefHayim]

Well i hope you are honest in your believes , Dont call the cops if you have a problem .. When the bad guy wants to break in your home step back an let 'em in...
Wars are so bad we should have let Hitler kill every, Christian, Jew .. So fake those guy on Normandy.. ..

This is taking what I said out of context so bad. I said death penalty. Death penalty. One type of punishment. One. I didn't say do away with all punishment. If you read what I typed you would see that I have said criminals should be imprisoned or fined according to their crimes. Death penalty is a whole different thing. Scripture says submit to authority if that's the law of the land, not that it is mandatory to have a death penalty.

As for wars, the past wars were funded on both sides by the same bankers. We're only fighting to make the fat fatter. I didn't say they were fake in the sense of "they didn't happen." I said that the reasons for wars are not what we're told.

As for self-defense, yes, that's scriptural. While Jesus gave the disciples swords he rebuked them when they sliced an enemy's ear off. The thing is, unless there is no other option left, and if grace is clearly not going to "heap coals" on the enemies heads, then yes self-defense may be used.

Yet it seems like some of the best testimonies have been martyrdom.

Tyndale was betrayed by a friend, Philips, the agent either of Henry or of English ecclesiastics, or possibly of both. Tyndale was arrested and imprisoned in the castle of Vilvoorden for over 500 days of horrible conditions. He was tried for heresy and treason in a ridiculously unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes." This prayer was answered three years later, in the publication of King Henry VIII’s 1539 English “Great Bible”.

"I Have Decided to Follow Jesus" is a Christian hymn originating from India. The lyrics are based on the last words of a man in Assam, north-east India, who along with his family was converted to Christianity in the middle of the 19th century through the efforts of a Welsh missionary. Called to renounce his faith by the village chief, the convert declared, "I have decided to follow Jesus." In response to threats to his family, he continued, "Though no one joins me, still I will follow." His wife was killed, and he was executed while singing, "The cross before me, the world behind me." This display of faith is reported to have led to the conversion of the chief and others in the village.[1]


As for Hitler: you're supposed to submit to authority, right? This was the World's war anyway. It was World War II. Very very seldom is there ever anything legitimate for war. The thing is: why would I want to fight for something that's a lie?

Join the Army. Meet someone interesting. Then kill him. - Steven Wright

 

[jasonc]

This is taking what I said out of context so bad. I said death penalty. Death penalty. One type of punishment. One. I didn't say do away with all punishment. If you read what I typed you would see that I have said criminals should be imprisoned or fined according to their crimes. Death penalty is a whole different thing. Scripture says submit to authority if that's the law of the land, not that it is mandatory to have a death penalty.

As for wars, the past wars were funded on both sides by the same bankers. We're only fighting to make the fat fatter. I didn't say they were fake in the sense of "they didn't happen." I said that the reasons for wars are not what we're told.

As for self-defense, yes, that's scriptural. While Jesus gave the disciples swords he rebuked them when they sliced an enemy's ear off. The thing is, unless there is no other option left, and if grace is clearly not going to "heap coals" on the enemies heads, then yes self-defense may be used.

Yet it seems like some of the best testimonies have been martyrdom.

Tyndale was betrayed by a friend, Philips, the agent either of Henry or of English ecclesiastics, or possibly of both. Tyndale was arrested and imprisoned in the castle of Vilvoorden for over 500 days of horrible conditions. He was tried for heresy and treason in a ridiculously unfair trial, and convicted. Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes." This prayer was answered three years later, in the publication of King Henry VIII’s 1539 English “Great Bible”.

"I Have Decided to Follow Jesus" is a Christian hymn originating from India. The lyrics are based on the last words of a man in Assam, north-east India, who along with his family was converted to Christianity in the middle of the 19th century through the efforts of a Welsh missionary. Called to renounce his faith by the village chief, the convert declared, "I have decided to follow Jesus." In response to threats to his family, he continued, "Though no one joins me, still I will follow." His wife was killed, and he was executed while singing, "The cross before me, the world behind me." This display of faith is reported to have led to the conversion of the chief and others in the village.[1]




As for Hitler: you're supposed to submit to authority, right?

ah yes, turn the jews, homosexuals, gays and gyspies in, its a lawful command. right, that would called murder as they didn't commit a crime. there are what is called unlawful acts by the state. I can forgive a man whom harmed me while testifying that he did the crime. its not that hard. I have called those I thought were drunk, were going to commit a crime of assault with a knife. thankfully that I didn't have to take the stand but I bet I might have saved the potential victim as he never went to that home again.

some Christians risked their lives and broke the law to stop that crime. they died in the process at times

 

[YosefHayim]

ah yes, turn the jews, homosexuals, gays and gyspies in, its a lawful command. right, that would called murder as they didn't commit a crime. there are what is called unlawful acts by the state. I can forgive a man whom harmed me while testifying that he did the crime. its not that hard. I have called those I thought were drunk, were going to commit a crime of assault with a knife. thankfully that I didn't have to take the stand but I bet I might have saved the potential victim as he never went to that home again.

some Christians risked their lives and broke the law to stop that crime. they died in the process at times

Now what about Prescott? He helped out the Nazis.

The Germans can die, but the American criminals can live.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't think there is any uniformity in this thread.
Everyone is up in arms about what they believe.
We should stick with the death penalty instead of side issues.
At least that's what I'm always told.

 

[Kathi]

I don't think there is any uniformity in this thread.
Everyone is up in arms about what they believe.
We should stick with the death penalty instead of side issues.
At least that's what I'm always told.

I think we should stay with the issue at hand or it gets confusing.

 

[reba]

This debate proves that Christians do not belong in politics or the military.
Our job is to give the Gospel.
It's the world's job to give death sentences.


And this is why I do not vote or pledge allegiance. I only pledge allegiance to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ of Nazareth: the first begotten of the dead.

The OP brought up the military and politics

 

[jasonc]

Now what about Prescott? He helped out the Nazis.

The Germans can die, but the American criminals can live.

thanks. signed oh ye murderer of hajis. oh wait I didn't do that. I helped haji in some ways but how is that possible in a time of war. its called an insurgency we took out the Taliban and had to establish a viable government. we had American-aghanis go back and help with that. we coordinated the effort to build infrastructure. my bad forgive me I don't regret that time of my life.forgive me if I indirectly helped a few girls be able to read, write. forgive me if I helped indirectly with ensuring the locals had health care, food, and also other stuff.

 

[reba]

YosefHayim I should have stayed out of this thread after the first couple post... You have every right to your views. Stepping away. reba

 

[YosefHayim]

The OP brought up the military and politics

Actually I responded, I didn't bring it up. Death penalty is really all I brought up. You quoted the original.