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reznwerks

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'Original' great ape discovered
By Paul Rincon
BBC News science reporter

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4014351.stm

Could this be the last common ancestor of humans and great apes?


Enlarge Image

Scientists have unearthed remains of a primate that could have been ancestral not only to humans but to all great apes, including chimps and gorillas.
The partial skeleton of this 13-million-year-old "missing link" was found by palaeontologists working at a dig site near Barcelona in Spain.

Details of the sensational discovery appear in Science magazine.

The new specimen was probably male, a fruit-eater and was slightly smaller than a chimpanzee, researchers say.

It's very impressive because of its completeness

David Begun, University of Toronto
Palaeontologists were just getting started at the dig when a bulldozer churned up a tooth.

Further investigation yielded one of the most complete ape skeletons known from the Miocene Epoch (about 22 to 5.5 million years ago).

Salvador Moyà-Solà of the Miquel Crusafont Institute of Palaeontology in Barcelona and colleagues subsequently found parts of the skull, ribcage, spine, hands and feet, along with other bones.

They have assigned it to an entirely new family and species: Pierolapithecus catalaunicus.

Monkey business

Great apes are thought - on the basis of genetic and other evidence - to have separated from another primate group known as the lesser apes some time between 11 and 16 million years ago (The lesser apes include gibbons and siamang).

It is fascinating, therefore, for a specimen like Pierolapithecus to turn up right in this window.

Scientists think the creature lived after the lesser apes went their own evolutionary way, but before the great apes began their own diversification into different forms such as orang-utans, gorillas, chimps and, of course, humans.

"Pierolapithecus probably is, or is very close to, the last common ancestor of great apes and humans," said Professor Moyà-Solà.


The new ape's ribcage, lower spine and wrist display signs of specialised climbing abilities that link it with modern great apes, say the researchers.

The overall orthograde - or upright - body design of this animal and modern-day great apes is thought to be an adaptation to vertical climbing and suspending the body from branches.

The Miocene ape fossil record is patchy; so finding such a complete fossil from this time period is unprecedented.

"It's very impressive because of its completeness," David Begun, professor of palaeoanthropology at the University of Toronto, Canada, told the BBC News website.

"I think the authors are right that it fills a gap between the first apes to arrive in Europe and the fossil apes that more closely resemble those living today."

Planet of the apes

Other scientists working on fossil apes were delighted by the discovery. But not all were convinced by the conclusions drawn by the Spanish researchers.

Professor Begun considers it unlikely that Pierolapithecus was ancestral to orang-utans.

"I haven't seen the original fossils. But there are four or five important features of the face, in particular, that seem to be closer to African apes," he explained.

"To me the possibility exists that it is already on the evolutionary line to African apes and humans."


The animal would not have looked much like any present-day apes


Enlarge Image

Professor David Pilbeam, director of the Peadbody Museum in Cambridge, US, was even more sceptical about the relationship of Pierolapithecus to modern great apes: "To me it's a very long stretch to link this to any of the living apes," he told the BBC News website.

"I think it's unlikely that you would find relatives of the apes that live today in equatorial Africa and Asia up in Europe.

"But it's interesting in that it appears to show some adaptations towards having a trunk that's upright because it's suspending itself [from branches].

"It also has some features that show quadrupedal (four-legged) behaviour. Not quadrupedal in the way chimps or gorillas are, but more in the way that monkeys are - putting their fingers down flat," he explained.

During the Miocene, Earth really was the planet of the apes.

As many as 100 different ape species roamed the Old World, from France to China in Eurasia and from Kenya to Namibia in Africa.
 
The adaptation for fruit-eating would explain the fact that both humans and other apes have a defective vitamin C gene that no longer produces it for us.

Eating fruit makes the gene unnecessary.
 
The Barbarian said:
The adaptation for fruit-eating would explain the fact that both humans and other apes have a defective vitamin C gene that no longer produces it for us.

Eating fruit makes the gene unnecessary.

:wink: I just cannot accept that. We just do not agree.
 
vit c

blueeyeliner said:
The Barbarian said:
The adaptation for fruit-eating would explain the fact that both humans and other apes have a defective vitamin C gene that no longer produces it for us.

Eating fruit makes the gene unnecessary.

:wink: I just cannot accept that. We just do not agree.

What can't you accept? Man does not have the capacity to make vitamin c like most other animals. Apes have the same problem. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
 
reznwerks: "....If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Gary: LOL... wrong analogy again!!! Humans walk and TALK, using language and complex ABSTRACT thoughts. Apes "walk" and grunt. (I do know that some of us grunt like apes when drunk.... but that is a different story!) :roll:

One of the reasons apes can't talk is because they have no pharynx.

.
 
Gary_Bee said:
reznwerks: "....If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

Gary: LOL... wrong analogy again!!! Humans walk and TALK, using language and complex ABSTRACT thoughts. Apes "walk" and grunt. (I do know that some of us grunt like apes when drunk.... but that is a different story!) :roll:

One of the reasons apes can't talk is because they have no pharynx.

.

Talking isn't all words, Gary. Communication is used by many animals, including apes.

Apes can also learn sign language and actually use it to communicate with humans.
 
Asimov: Apes can also learn sign language and actually use it to communicate with humans.

Gary: ... and that makes them human? Care to explain e=mc(2) to an ape using sign language? Or the concept of eternity.... or some other theoretical, abstract concept.

My dog "communicates" to me that he is hungry (by barking) and that he is "happy" by wagging his tail. Does that make him human?

:-?
 
Gary_Bee said:
Asimov: Apes can also learn sign language and actually use it to communicate with humans.

Gary: ... and that makes them human? Care to explain e=mc(2) to an ape using sign language? Or the concept of eternity.... or some other theoretical, abstract concept.

First, the question is not whether apes are humans, but whether humans are apes. Human is a more narrow classification than ape. Squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are square. Humans are apes, but not all apes are human.

Second, my girlfriend's brother has Down Syndrome leaving him severely mentally handicapped. Try explaining any of these to him, and you will fail. Does his inability to communicate anything beyond the most basic concepts make him non-human?
 
I agree. So you freely admit that the ability to communicate complex ideas is not a definining characteristic of humanity. Which means that your arguments are based on a false premise, and can be dismissed as wrong. It's all moot however, since you were arguing the wrong thing. Nobody has disputed the fact that apes are not human.
 
He remains a human being with Down Syndrome. That does not make the human race non-human but means that one particular member is sick/has a disability. That does not therefore follow that apes have the communications capabilities of humans.
 
Of course it doesn't follow. I never claimed, or even implied, that it did. I simply wanted to point out the fallacy in your argument.

We now all agree that not all apes are human. In agreement with reznwerks, I am making the claim that all humans are apes. I believe that you disagree with this. Please present your case for disagreement.
 
GaryBee said:
Gary: ... and that makes them human? Care to explain e=mc(2) to an ape using sign language? Or the concept of eternity.... or some other theoretical, abstract concept.

Kinds like explaining the theory of evolution to a creationist?

Refusal or inability to grasp advanced concepts has no bearing on the humanity of the person in question.

Cubed analogy is right on....remember your Venn diagrams?
 
Thinkerman: Kinds like explaining the theory of evolution to a creationist?

Gary: ..... or a higher being (God) to an atheist??
 
I just wonder how many more "original apes" will find in my lifetime... :roll:

BL
 
Note the that scientist being interviews expresses dislike of the "missing link" tag.

He says that this is very, very close to the divergence of the human/other ape lines, but he does not know if this is the species right at that point.

We may certainly find others close to that point. Maybe even closer.
 
Re: vit c

reznwerks said:
blueeyeliner said:
The Barbarian said:
The adaptation for fruit-eating would explain the fact that both humans and other apes have a defective vitamin C gene that no longer produces it for us.

Eating fruit makes the gene unnecessary.

:wink: I just cannot accept that. We just do not agree.

What can't you accept? Man does not have the capacity to make vitamin c like most other animals. Apes have the same problem. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

:roll: Thats pure non-sense. I haven't seen any proof of that at all.
We are not animals. Animals are not made in God's image,even though
he loves them and he gave them to us to enjoy. One day the animals
will trust man again,and they will no longer try to hurt us or one another.
God is soooooo good,amen.
 
Re: vit c

blueeyeliner said:
reznwerks said:
blueeyeliner said:
The Barbarian said:
The adaptation for fruit-eating would explain the fact that both humans and other apes have a defective vitamin C gene that no longer produces it for us.

Eating fruit makes the gene unnecessary.

:wink: I just cannot accept that. We just do not agree.

What can't you accept? Man does not have the capacity to make vitamin c like most other animals. Apes have the same problem. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....

:roll: Thats pure non-sense. I haven't seen any proof of that at all.
We are not animals. Animals are not made in God's image,even though
he loves them and he gave them to us to enjoy. One day the animals
will trust man again,and they will no longer try to hurt us or one another.
God is soooooo good,amen.

God's image, huh?

So God doesn't have the capacity to make vitamin C either?

Wow, you learn something new everyday.
 
8-) If God didn't make vitamin C,then who did?
And yes,I encourage you to learn,thats what I want.
 
At the risk of sounding a little rude, I have to ask:

Does God have nipples?
 
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