OSAS is biblical truth.

[Eugene]

Do we sin? I don't practice sin, I don't knowingly sin. That is not to say I don't blow it from time to time though. We are not talking about people who blow it. We are talking about those that gave their life to the Lord Jesus and there is no fruit, no faith, no love walk, or go back to those things they use to be as if Jesus is not there Lord. I am not talking about those that are actually trying. (God knows the heart and we can't judge but by fruit there or not there.)

My point is that we are talking about Eternal security, that once you just confess Jesus as Lord and get dunked in water then your good to go. Scripture say otherwise.................

Hmmm. You sin accidently or as you say not on purpose? 1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Oh my, you seem to be in a heap of trouble by your own words; they condemn you.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not;

You see dear brother, out of context we can twist the word to what we want to live by accusing or excusing us. I have never met an OSAS that thought the way you describe them, or as some have said: sinning that grace may abound. You see, by faith I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. I do not know all that day will bring but when face to face I expect to sing the song of the redeemed.

Blessings in Christ Jesus. :waving

 

[Brother Mike]

You see dear brother, out of context we can twist the word to what we want to live by accusing or excusing us. I have never met an OSAS that thought the way you describe them, or as some have said: sinning that grace may abound. You see, by faith I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. I do not know all that day will bring but when face to face I expect to sing the song of the redeemed.

OSAS means that no matter what, once you make Jesus Lord of your life, then you are saved despite any actions on your part. OSAS folk believe that your salvation and eternal life is secure. I fully understand they don't know about someone who made Jesus Lord, but did other things despite scripture.

Eugene, the argument is not about sins or messing up. It's about OSAS being true or false. You go to extreme measures once saved to prove you can end up not being saved. You understand that? extreme measures.

There is a sin unto death, John said don't even pray for that person. There is a line, a place that one can by choice not be saved. There are several scriptures that disprove OSAS and if not full out disprove it sure leaves questions and great boundaries never to cross.

Can someone be saved and live in fear and unbelief all their life? Scriptures says no. Can someone deny Jesus in front of others and stay saved? Peter did and made it, but what happens if you just keep Jesus to yourself and deny being a Christian to your friends and co-workers. That is what I am talking about. Jesus said I will deny you before my Father. That is pretty heavy stuff.

Mike.

 

[Messenger]

Sons of God is a reference to angels.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

What is your point?



What does this have to do with the sons of God as being angels?


JLB

Angels are not sons of God.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene, the argument is not about sins or messing up. There is a sin unto death, John said don't even pray for that person.

Moses committed a sin unto death because of unbelief; is that being erased from the book of life? Moses was seen later with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration; is he an exception?

John 6:37 . . him that cometh to me I will in no wise (For no reason) cast out.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

 

[Elijah674]

Eugene, the argument is not about sins or messing up. There is a sin unto death, John said don't even pray for that person.

Moses committed a sin unto death because of unbelief; is that being erased from the book of life? Moses was seen later with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration; is he an exception?

John 6:37 . . him that cometh to me I will in no wise (For no reason) cast out.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Moses did what??????? 1 John 5:16-17
--Elijah

 

[Eugene]

Moses committed a sin unto death because of unbelief

Moses did what??????? 1 John 5:16-17

He committed a sin unto death, but as you pointed out in 1 John 5:16-17 I didn't pray for it. Of course, Moses came a bit before me, but I've got my eyes on other non believers of eternal security believing they are the captain of their ship. Strike the ROCK repeatedly huh? Oh the humanity.

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 32:50 Die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people;

Deuteronomy 32:51 . . because ye sanctified me not in the midst of the children of Israel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see, by faith I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

The danger is to stop having this faith.

Just as the signature of 'having faith' is an ever-increasing obedience, so the signature of a failed, or failing faith is a willful backslide into sin. This is not about having a bad hair day in Christ, or a struggle with sin, you know, the growing pains of the faith. This is about willfully and knowingly walking away from God--denying him.

Can a person stop having faith in Christ once they do? Apparently, since the scriptures teach us to not stop having faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can someone be saved and live in fear and unbelief all their life? Scriptures says no. Can someone deny Jesus in front of others and stay saved? Peter did and made it, but what happens if you just keep Jesus to yourself and deny being a Christian to your friends and co-workers. That is what I am talking about. Jesus said I will deny you before my Father. That is pretty heavy stuff.

Mike.

It is heavy stuff, but a burden the Lord did not impose on us (as you have presented it here).

The 'being fearful' that condemns a person is the fear that leads to sin. Look at all the reasons why you and I sin and you can trace them back to 'I was afraid of <fill in the blank>'.

And unless you have a calling equivalent to what Paul had I don't think, IMO, it is a sin to not witness. Romans 12 explains how we are to personally assess our own gifts, and faith to operate in our gifts. Unlike obedience, the service of our gift has an element of choice in it.

Mike, I think you're drawing the line of no return way too close to the believer.

 

[JLB]

Sons of God is a reference to angels.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

What is your point?



What does this have to do with the sons of God as being angels?


JLB

Angels are not sons of God.

1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:1-4

Peter referred to these as angels -

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 2 Peter 2:4-5

This scripture is a direct reference to Noah and the flood.

The sons of God is a reference to angels.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." 6 Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6

The Angel of the Lord is a reference to the Lord Jesus Christ before He became flesh.

The Angel of the Lord is a direct reference to The Son of God.


The sons of God are angels.


JLB

 

[gr8grace]

Exegesis

In the Case for "E" the greek says you are mistaken in your interpretation of Rev 3:5. John uses a "litotes" in Rev 3:5. By the figure of speech known as litotes (an affirmation expressed in negative terms), we have actually an emphatic declaration that emphasizes the certainty of the promise of salvation. In other words, a positive point is made by denying its opposite.

That is not the Problem Grace. The problem is you want to believe something and your not adding up the rest of the scriptures. Jesus said he who overcomes will not have their name blotted out.

Who overcomes? Only those that believe on Jesus. 1 John 5:5

We have other surrounding scriptures though.

So this verse came about to believers that were worried about getting their names erased from a book and John/Holy Spirit gave them extreme comfort in the fact that they WILL NOT have their names removed from the Book of Life.

You made this up, there is no scripture denoting any believer was afraid to get them name removed. Don't make things up!!!! You will loose my respect real quick because I am a word only person and so is JLB.

Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

What happens if we don't obey and keep the commandments? Professing Jesus is good enough? What happens? Answer the question.
What happens if you don't have any faith? Scared of sickness, scared of someone breaking into your house, just no faith. (Heb 11:6) Do you overcome the world? Do you please God? Answer!!!

Luk_22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Mat_10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

What happens if you deny Jesus trying to fit in a group or impress some girl... What happens then?


Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, (Condition) the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The condition to overcome was just not believing Jesus, for without God you are without hope in this World. That was just the start and you ignore the rest. Answer my questions, your telling me that We can deny the name of Jesus, be faithless and break every love command we can think of but as long as we say we believe on Jesus you think it's all going to be OK despite what the Word says...

Am I correct? You think this way?

Mike.

Grace alone through Faith alone in Christ alone.

The behavior and Integrity of the Creator saves a person not the behavior or integrity of the creature.

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

So yes Mike, I believe that there are carnal believers(Corinth) and spiritual believers(Philippians). A carnal believer may do all the things you mentioned above. He will have a life of divine discipline, reaping what he sows, loss of VERY IMPORTANT REWARDS,The sin unto death(physical for believers) and MOST OF ALL, SHAME at the Bema seat of Christ.

One more thing, Professing Christ or asking Christ into ones heart does not save a person. One Has to BELIEVE in His Heart(right lobe,brain) to be saved.

 

[JLB]

So yes Mike, I believe that there are carnal believers(Corinth) and spiritual believers(Philippians). A carnal believer may do all the things you mentioned above. He will have a life of divine discipline, reaping what he sows, loss of VERY IMPORTANT REWARDS,The sin unto death and MOST OF ALL, SHAME at the Bema seat of Christ.

So does this statement put you in the OSAS camp, or not?


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Moses committed a sin unto death because of unbelief; is that being erased from the book of life? Moses was seen later with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration; is he an exception?

John 6:37 . . him that cometh to me I will in no wise (For no reason) cast out.

I give up Eugene. I love you and God bless you. What are we Discussing here? OSAS, and Moses missed the promise Land by beating a rock. As for unbelief? Moses had amazing faith and relationship with God.

The 'being fearful' that condemns a person is the fear that leads to sin. Look at all the reasons why you and I sin and you can trace them back to 'I was afraid of <fill in the blank>'.

And unless you have a calling equivalent to what Paul had I don't think, IMO, it is a sin to not witness. Romans 12 explains how we are to personally assess our own gifts, and faith to operate in our gifts. Unlike obedience, the service of our gift has an element of choice in it.

Mike, I think you're drawing the line of no return way too close to the believer.

I gave the scripture in Revelation.......... Fear and unbelief is right in there with murderers and Witches. Now many believes are full of fear and unbelief. I met a Women who went to church that was deathly afraid of squirrels. I mean like the Squirrel apocalypses was going to happen soon.

And unless you have a calling equivalent to what Paul had I don't think, IMO, it is a sin to not witness. Romans 12 explains how we are to personally assess our own gifts, and faith to operate in our gifts. Unlike obedience, the service of our gift has an element of choice in it.

I have news for you Brother. Your calling, and the gifts God will use you in are no less than Paul's. Your just as important, and have the same Holy Spirit Paul had. Now if you choose not to walk in faith and find out all God has for you, then that is your choice.

Now, what is faith? What is obedience? Do what the Lord tells you to do, and believe The word over anything else. It's real simple and easy to follow as Jesus said my yoke is light. A fool for Christ, and you know what fools do? They step out for the Lord with no thought of their pride of ability to look real stupid in front of others. They are willing to think they heard God, and go talk to a perfect stranger, they are willing to hand their last dime to someone praying to God over and over in fear so that their bills can get paid. They know God, when other believers are just learning and don't know God as well.

There is absolutely no reason to have any fear, there is no excuse and no reason not to do what the Lord called you to do. The two things that Got the attention of Jesus. Having fear, and walking out of love trying to keep the Law of God. One other thing got the attention of Jesus, and that was faith. Jesus was very impressed with the Centurion when He told the Lord just speak the Word, and my servant shall be healed. That is what God is looking for, someone that will believe the Word only despite what is going on.

I been there, my son had terminal cancer, but I can promise you I never moved once. My sons life was to important to go crying and begging God to heal him. I took my stand against the devil, and never once confessed anything over my son but what the Lord said and by His stripes we are healed, my son is just fine.

When asked about my son's condition, I ask if you wanted to hear what God already said about it in the Word, or you want to hear what the doctors said. Even Christians said they wanted to know what the doctors said and that is really sad.

We may not be Paul, called to being killed everyday and walking through it to live another day to finish the race. We might be called to a nice plush Church off a nice beach coast where everything is just awesome and the money pours in to do everything God called us to do. If called to live in the rice patties of China with snakes to give the word and get beat or called to that nice plush church, both callings are just as important and both places your the most happy you will ever be, doing the will of God. We might be called to be a principle of a school, or Ceo, or in upper management, or police chief, but whatever the calling we best find it and get in it with all faith, and obedience.

Remember Jethro what the thread is about, it's about OSAS. I put extreme conditions because I believe if you do with a good heart follow God, then you don't wake up one day unsaved. The Word does cover it though, and to live a life of disobedience and fear is putting you on that edge with the rest of the murderers and others going down to the pit. Jesus is Lord, must mean He is Lord over everything.

So does this statement put you in the OSAS camp, or not?

So yes Mike, I believe that there are carnal believers(Corinth) and spiritual believers(Philippians). A carnal believer may do all the things you mentioned above. He will have a life of divine discipline, reaping what he sows, loss of VERY IMPORTANT REWARDS,The sin unto death and MOST OF ALL, SHAME at the Bema seat of Christ.

What is it Grace? OSAS means that no matter what we choose, as long as we give our life to the Lord at one time then we are eternally secure. That can't be possible because scriptures show different. Now what is your stance as you at least thought about my post which is good, but be honest here. How can it be possible to deny Jesus for job promotions then deny Jesus and live in fear to impress some girl and still not get your name wiped out of the book when Jesus said I will deny you before my father and without faith you can't please God?

Mike.

 

[gr8grace]

I give up Eugene. I love you and God bless you. What are we Discussing here? OSAS, and Moses missed the promise Land by beating a rock. As for unbelief? Moses had amazing faith and relationship with God.







I gave the scripture in Revelation.......... Fear and unbelief is right in there with murderers and Witches. Now many believes are full of fear and unbelief. I met a Women who went to church that was deathly afraid of squirrels. I mean like the Squirrel apocalypses was going to happen soon.



I have news for you Brother. Your calling, and the gifts God will use you in are no less than Paul's. Your just as important, and have the same Holy Spirit Paul had. Now if you choose not to walk in faith and find out all God has for you, then that is your choice.

Now, what is faith? What is obedience? Do what the Lord tells you to do, and believe The word over anything else. It's real simple and easy to follow as Jesus said my yoke is light. A fool for Christ, and you know what fools do? They step out for the Lord with no thought of their pride of ability to look real stupid in front of others. They are willing to think they heard God, and go talk to a perfect stranger, they are willing to hand their last dime to someone praying to God over and over in fear so that their bills can get paid. They know God, when other believers are just learning and don't know God as well.

There is absolutely no reason to have any fear, there is no excuse and no reason not to do what the Lord called you to do. The two things that Got the attention of Jesus. Having fear, and walking out of love trying to keep the Law of God. One other thing got the attention of Jesus, and that was faith. Jesus was very impressed with the Centurion when He told the Lord just speak the Word, and my servant shall be healed. That is what God is looking for, someone that will believe the Word only despite what is going on.

I been there, my son had terminal cancer, but I can promise you I never moved once. My sons life was to important to go crying and begging God to heal him. I took my stand against the devil, and never once confessed anything over my son but what the Lord said and by His stripes we are healed, my son is just fine.

When asked about my son's condition, I ask if you wanted to hear what God already said about it in the Word, or you want to hear what the doctors said. Even Christians said they wanted to know what the doctors said and that is really sad.

We may not be Paul, called to being killed everyday and walking through it to live another day to finish the race. We might be called to a nice plush Church off a nice beach coast where everything is just awesome and the money pours in to do everything God called us to do. If called to live in the rice patties of China with snakes to give the word and get beat or called to that nice plush church, both callings are just as important and both places your the most happy you will ever be, doing the will of God. We might be called to be a principle of a school, or Ceo, or in upper management, or police chief, but whatever the calling we best find it and get in it with all faith, and obedience.

Remember Jethro what the thread is about, it's about OSAS. I put extreme conditions because I believe if you do with a good heart follow God, then you don't wake up one day unsaved. The Word does cover it though, and to live a life of disobedience and fear is putting you on that edge with the rest of the murderers and others going down to the pit. Jesus is Lord, must mean He is Lord over everything.

So does this statement put you in the OSAS camp, or not?

So yes Mike, I believe that there are carnal believers(Corinth) and spiritual believers(Philippians). A carnal believer may do all the things you mentioned above. He will have a life of divine discipline, reaping what he sows, loss of VERY IMPORTANT REWARDS,The sin unto death and MOST OF ALL, SHAME at the Bema seat of Christ.

What is it Grace? OSAS means that no matter what we choose, as long as we give our life to the Lord at one time then we are eternally secure. That can't be possible because scriptures show different. Now what is your stance as you at least thought about my post which is good, but be honest here. How can it be possible to deny Jesus for job promotions then deny Jesus and live in fear to impress some girl and still not get your name wiped out of the book when Jesus said I will deny you before my father and without faith you can't please God?

Mike.

We don't "give our life to the lord" to be saved. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross.

2 Tim 2:11-13~~11~~FAITHFUL . . . {IS} THE WORD/DOCTRINE.
"For you see . . .
if we have died with Him {Christ} - and we have -
at the same time also, we shall also live with Him, 12~~

if we endure suffering -and we do {in the spiritually mature Life}-
we shall also rule with Him {a Spiritually mature reward in
Eternity Future},

if we repudiate/deny/refuse Him -and we {some of us} do
{reversionism - rejecting bible teaching} - that same One
{Jesus} also will refuse/deny us {rewards in eternity
future}, 13~~

if we {believers in carnality} are unfaithful/believe not {to/in
bible doctrine} - and we {some of us} do - He abides/
remains faithful."

For you see, He {Jesus} can not deny Himself
{we are in Union with Christ and are part of Him}......verse 11 We SHALL live with Him.

Matt 10:33~~"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Jesus was talking about service and rewards for service. Not sending one of His children to the lake of fire.

Matt 10:40-42~~"He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41"He who receives a prophet in [the] name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42"And whoever in the name of a disciple gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water to drink, truly I say to you, he shall not lose his reward."

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I give up Eugene. I love you and God bless you. What are we Discussing here? OSAS, and Moses missed the promise Land by beating a rock. As for unbelief? Moses had amazing faith and relationship with God.

Moses did not deny the Lord. He was faithless toward the Lord. A personal failure of trusting God in everyday life, not an outright 'return to Egypt' and and a rejection of the Promises of God made to the children of Abraham. If Moses had denied God outright we would not see him on the Mount of Transfiguration. IOW, we know he did not deny him...because God did not deny him. Think about it.

 

[reba]

There is a lot more to the story of Moses and Rock then just beating the rock....:gah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

The problem with this belief is the 'fire' that unfaithful servants are cast into is the same 'fire' unbelievers are cast into.

And you're right, born again believers don't go to the lake of fire. When they reject Christ they don't have the Spirit of God that would qualify them as a 'believing'. If they 'believed' they would not be being sent to their destruction with the wicked.

Obviously, it is faith that determines if you are a believer or not. If you have faith you are fulfilling the condition for salvation. If you don't have faith you are fulfilling the condition for damnation. Notice I said 'faith', not 'works'. Faith is what determines your eternal outcome. Works are the evidence of belief/ unbelief.

The Bible says we must have this faith to the very end to have what faith secures--salvation. Those who don't persevere in their faith are assigned the exact same outcome of the unbelieving, because they are, after all, just that...unbelievers.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is a lot more to the story of Moses and Rock then just beating the rock....:gah

It's a picture of Christ...both the Rock, and Moses.

To make the story about Moses himself is really missing the real point, IMO.

 

[josefnospam]

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards

There is one reward to all and it is the same...........................Eternal Life That's what all who are born again recieve. We all get the same reward as Paul, or John or Peter or me or you.

 

[gr8grace]

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

The problem with this belief is the 'fire' that unfaithful servants are cast into is the same 'fire' unbelievers are cast into.

And you're right, born again believers don't go to the lake of fire. When they reject Christ they don't have the Spirit of God that would qualify them as a 'believing'. If they 'believed' they would not be being sent to their destruction with the wicked.

Obviously, it is faith that determines if you are a believer or not. If you have faith you are fulfilling the condition for salvation. If you don't have faith you are fulfilling the condition for damnation. Notice I said 'faith', not 'works'. Faith is what determines your eternal outcome. Works are the evidence of belief/ unbelief.

The Bible says we must have this faith to the very end to have what faith secures--salvation. Those who don't persevere in their faith are assigned the exact same outcome of the unbelieving, because they are, after all, just that...unbelievers.

Jethro,

Post #44 is where you and I differ.

Because Jethro, we are saved at a moment in time. the moment we believe we are saved and saved forever.

Acts 16:31~~ The word believe, or pisteuo, is an aorist tense. With an aorist tense being used, it means that at the exact point of time that you believe, God saves you. In addition to the aorist tense, the word believe, or pisteuo, is an active voice. The active voice indicates that the subject produces the action of the verb, and that there is no violation of human volition. In addition, the imperative mood tells us that this is a command. In fact, it is the only way of salvation.

The OBJECT(Christ,we get him the moment we believe) of our faith saves us, not our faith. That is why we have 2 Tim 2:13~~If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

I agree with your life teachings and what a Christian SHOULD do.

I just believe that some Christians won't do some or all of the things that they SHOULD do after salvation. ANd Yes I believe that some will jump in your face and Deny the Lord. But the Lord will not deny them salvation.

I think the KEY is positional and conditional truth.

POSITION= In Christ, union with Christ this position cannot and will not change. Holy, righteous and sanctified the moment we believe.

CONDITION= still have the Old sin nature, can choose to follow the plan or not that God has for every individual. On Going sanctification, progressive sanctification in our condition. Rewards, rank,reign and things we can't even imagine are at stake, not salvation.

Salvation is equal privilege equal opportunity. Spiritual maturity and Growing in Christ is all about choice and following the Plan God has for our lives.

 

[Brother Mike]

We don't "give our life to the lord" to be saved. We believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His work on the Cross.

1Jn_3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Col_3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Joh_3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Co_12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

Mat_10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

If you say so..........................I have given my life to Him, since you haven't, I would strongly suggest to do so and everything you do from now on be unto the Lord with less words but speak the Word only. You can do what you want though, but I don't recommend that at all.

Reading your Post with consideration:

OK, I see what your getting at. So instead of hell fire, your denied the Kingdom of God. The scripture I used in REV could mean the unbeliever as nothing denotes that those folks were saved at one time, but Fear and unbelief still are very, very, very bad.

So, Jesus would go to the Father when reward time comes and tells the Father I don't have that person on record as doing anything. They get nothing, but are still saved from eternal hell.

I got you.

I am a Word person, so when someone brings scripture to the table and they don't sound like a loon, then I have to take scripture into account they present and consider if what that persons is presenting, possible. I may not agree, but are they sane enough without going into "Parables" "It's spiritual" "It's Hyperbole" "It's just an expression" When you start talking like that and using Hermeneutics and all kinds of mens fantasies instead of reading plainly the Word then you loose my attention real quick. By his stripes I am healed, means I am the healed and I best get in faith and seek God about it when sick. I don't question what is very clearly written. If I die sick, then my fault as I have the right to choose blessing or cursing, not God's.

So, taking that into consideration, then how far we have to go to prove your point so that it at least seems Possible? I have to ask myself that. We have to dig to much in the Greek then we are trying to hard to prove a concept.

Believers will be denied rewards and varying levels of rewards based on the DIVINE good a believer does or does not do. These verses have nothing to do with God sending born again believers to the lake of fire.

So that is it? Let's Look to see if that is at least possible.

Gal_5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Mar 10:25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.


Here is some more scriptures. Kingdom is not a place which you know, it means to reign in or with God. Reign in Heaven as king and priest? Those folks cast out devils so had to be filled with the Holy Spirit at one time. Jesus did not deny they did not do the Works that only the Holy Spirit could do through someone. The question is, does Jesus mean you don't get an authoritative position in Heaven?

If you don't produce fruit, (Works upon a solid foundation) you are cast into the fire. Does that mean Hell? Paul said our works are tried and if burned up we are still saves as by fire. If you wanted to go that route then I think it's "Possible" you might be right considering what Kingdom really means and works are tried by fire being burnt up and no reward but still saved.

Drunks, rich, whoremongers do not inherit the Kingdom of God. That is for earth or operating with God in the law of Heaven doing the will of God on earth as it is in heaven. It may not mean you go to hell, but will have no authority or power here entering into the will and things of God. A defeated life, but still saved as by fire, like Paul said. No reward like you stated.

Putting this under examination, what you say might be possible. I have to get into some Greek though and compare scriptures so is the concept that you are still saved with no reward or is the concept that you end up in Hell?

Sorry, YLT:
Heb 6:4 for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
Heb 6:6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

Heb 10:26 For we--wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth--no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,

Heb 10:29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?

Here we have one sin, knowing the truth, tasted the Holy Spirit and good things of God, but then deciding that the Blood and all thing things that come with being saved is common and not worth a thing. Often times folks during this period were going back to Judaism to avoid persecution. Serving another type of God, but counting the blood as common and unholy.

1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Here we see a brother that might have left God to serve Allah, buddah or some other thing not making Jesus Lord anymore but something else. A sin unto death, John called it.

So, I see what you present with scripture can be "POSSIBLE" That once saved and you hold onto Jesus knowing your saved and tell others your saved that despite the fruit, unbelief, fear, and not doing the will of God, then you just might still be saved as if by fire and no reward. POSSIBLE?

Then I guess the next question is.......... Is OSAS about the belief that one can loose their salvation or does this have a deeper root in some election doctrine where man does not have a choice to walk away from God. What are we really discussing here?

Mike.