Chopper
Member
Bravo Eugene, that's a Chopper Home Run!! Once truly saved is unto the day of redemption. IT'S THE WORD OF GOD AND HE DOESN'T LIE. To doubt that is to grieve the Holy Spirit, period!
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
- Thread starter Eugene
- Start date
Bravo Eugene, that's a Chopper Home Run!! Once truly saved is unto the day of redemption. IT'S THE WORD OF GOD AND HE DOESN'T LIE. To doubt that is to grieve the Holy Spirit, period!
The Holy Spirit is given to believers.
Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer believers.
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
Please explain how a person who doesn't believe anymore, still has the Holy Spirit?
JLB
Of Course God doesn't lie.
God promises eternal life to those who believe.
No such promise is made to apostates.
Those who believe for a while, then during tribulation and persecution change their allegiance to serve another is a hypocrite and no longer a believer in Christ.
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21
- but endures only for a while
But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
That is the promise of Jesus Christ.
JLB
Because God said it??? Eph 4:30 . . . ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Brother JLB, I used to wonder at King David not killing King Saul, and saying that he was still anointed.
1Sa 24:6 And he (David) said unto his men, The LORD forbid that I should do this thing unto my master (Saul), the LORD'S anointed, to stretch forth mine hand against him, seeing he is the anointed of the LORD.
Oh, but he was sent out to be destroyed. We see Saul in 1Sa 28:15 . . . I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams:
In 1Sa 28:18 Samuel tells Saul why. . . . Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD,
1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me . . . (Where was Samuel?)
ezra
Member
agreed
I agree that Samuel was in Paradise, and Saul went to be with him.
However, we are discussing the Gospel, and believing in Christ Jesus as Lord.
I don't find where Saul renounced the Lord, and confessed Baal as Lord, in the face of the Philistines and death.
13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:13-14
The context is enduring under persecution, and staying faithful to the Lord, even unto death, and not turning from Him.
This phrase here in verse 14... this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness.
The word witness is where we get our word martyr from.
Those who die while under persecution, in which they give witness by giving their life, rather than renouncing Jesus as Lord.
Just like all the Apostles did, and all the people in the Foxes book of Martyr's.
10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
Revelation 2:10-11
- Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
- He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8
- But the cowardly, unbelieving...shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
This is the context, of the parable of the sower:
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
- but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
This is true for all of us.
Those who believe for a while, then under persecution, they try to save their own life, and return to unbelieving, are no longer believers and are promised eternal damnation.
- For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 16:25
JLB
Spectacular! Truth that is hard to swallow for those caught up in a religion or have rejected His word.As a believer who is neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I would like to point out that biblical election has never been about salvation. Ever.
The Bible indicates (at least) 6 categories or types of election, and none are about salvation.
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16
6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15
What each of these categories have in common is service, not salvation.
Thoughts?
Dear brother, you do realize that enduring unto the end is a physical salvation of living to enter the millennial reign of Christ? There will always be but one way, one gate, and one name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved (spiritually). Act 4:12.
Now you're quoting from scripture to the Smyrna assembly of the One Church, and representative of those that were faithful unto physical death that will have a crown, and to join them in the air will be those alive when our Savior comes that patiently keep the word of God known as the Church in Philadelphia in Rev 3:10. Notice that they have a crown too. These two assemblies are the full overcomers that comprise the bride of Christ. Their faithfulness, or walk with our Lord didn't get them saved, but it provided the place they will enjoy with our Savior round about, and in the midst of Jesus' throne. Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with his own blood.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
That would actually be quenching the Spirit. To doubt salvation, to maintain salvation , to think that there are 2 different types of salvation, to do good works from the flesh, to live morally and think it is spiritual............that is QUENCHING the spirit.
1 Thess 5:19~~New American Standard Bible
Do not quench the Spirit;
To live in rebellion and our sin after we are saved is grieving the Spirit.
Eph 4:30~~New American Standard Bible
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Most of us quench the Spirit rather than grieve the Spirit.
Yes and difficult is the way that leads to life, and few find it.
Brother, here are the words of Jesus Christ: That pertain to salvation.
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
- Endures for a while.
- Believes for a while.
12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13
- lest they should believe and be saved.
The condition for salvation is believing or enduring to the end, with the result: Being saved.
The context is about salvation. Believing and enduring to the end, for salvation.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
- if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard
The hope of the Gospel is salvation.
JLB
Now you're quoting from scripture to the Smyrna assembly of the One Church, and representative of those that were faithful unto physical death that will have a crown, and to join them in the air will be those alive when our Savior comes that patiently keep the word of God known as the Church in Philadelphia in Rev 3:10. Notice that they have a crown too. These two assemblies are the full overcomers that comprise the bride of Christ. Their faithfulness, or walk with our Lord didn't get them saved, but it provided the place they will enjoy with our Savior round about, and in the midst of Jesus' throne. Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with his own blood.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
This is to all of us:
He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8
- But the cowardly, unbelieving...shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
This is the context, of the parable of the sower:
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
- who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
- but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21
- But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
This is true for all of us.
Those who believe for a while, then under persecution, then try to save their own life, and return to unbelieving, are no longer believers and are promised eternal damnation.
- For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Matthew 16:25
JLB
I will not subject you or any to defending their personal walk in Christ, but it is God doing the leading and our submission to His will as to our faithfulness,. I have not, and I doubt there are any not needing God's intervention as we read of in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Endure? The same word is also used in scripture as suffering in 2 Tim 2:12 (G5278).
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure (G5278) unto the end, the same shall be saved.
The KJV translates Strong's G5278 in the following manner: endure (11x), take patiently (2x), tarry behind (1x), abide (1x), patient (1x), suffer (1x - (This is 2 Tim 2:12)
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (What will God deny us? It is the right to reign as a joint heir we read of in Rom 8:17)
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (Or endure?) with him, that we may be also glorified together. (To me scripture here is speaking of our reward; not the gift of God which is our salvation according to Rom 6:23 - eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.)
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet He (Jesus) abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (Who is this Himself Jesus cannot deny? US, His own body.)
Then you made the comment that seems to insinuate that Mat 24:13 is applied to all of us. Can you see by the following verses that Jesus is talking of the end time? (I personally expect to be in heaven with Jesus before the middle of the week of tribulation when the man of sin stands in the holy place: that is to be seen as God to an unbelieving world.)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Cygnus
Member
I often see that verse used to complement OSNAS.....but those that use it fail to use the quote in the proper context. Bad hermenuitics.
That verse was ripped from what many bibles call the signs for the end of the ages. Some even see it as the destruction of the temple...but in no way does it paint a picture of remaining in personal salvation.
John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
JLB, have you been given to Jesus by the Father? If you answered yes, then how can you wind up lost?
Seabass
Member
Are INDIVIDUALS UNconditionally sealed apart from the group called 'Christian?
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
There were some present that were not Jesus’ sheep. Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, and as such would not have been sealed.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold (These are also believers which I believe to be those now in Paradise that were taken up also after Jesus died and went to preach to them in the lower parts of the earth - Eph 4:9): them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
In Joh 10:27 us sheep hear Jesus’ voice, and He knows us.
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. If you have ever called upon the name of the Lord) Rom 10:13), you are sealed until the day of redemption. Eph 4:30.
Thanks Seabass for the question. Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Seabass
Member
Thanks Seabass for the question. Blessings in Christ Jesus.
I looked but did not see an answer to my question.
My question: Are INDIVIDUALS UNconditionally sealed apart from the group called 'Christian?
The answer of course is "no". So the individual is CONDITIONALLY sealed as long as he remains in the group Christian. If he becomes unfaithful and falls from the group, the group remains sealed but not the individual that fell from the group.
Chopper
Member
Hello Seabass. I'm amazed that so many "would be theologians" still don't know about the "Remnant" of God. I'm in the process of putting together an in depth instruction on the Remnant. There was, at the time of the Reformation some pretty good "Remnant Doctrine". I intend to ignore their claims so I can, thru the wisdom of the Holy Spirit, and my thirst to present Truth from the Word of God, in the face of ignorance. It's like Job's friend Eliphaz with one of his good statements...."Should a wise man utter vain knowledge?" I would change that to (my paraphrase), WHY should a wise man utter vain knowledge? The Spirit of God's Word says.... "Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge.".
So, to answer your question, "Are INDIVIDUALS UNconditionally sealed apart from the group called 'Christian?" The answer is YES. There are folk here in this Forum who are familiar with my theology of two classes or groups of Christians. So this is nothing new to these folk who refuse to accept Truth from God's Word, presented thru a dirt bag like me.
When I return with my presentation on the Remnant of God, I will once and for all prove the two classes of Christians, the Elect who are sealed and will not abandon Christ Jesus, and the second class who are not sealed and can fall away.
STAY TUNED!
I will not subject you or any to defending their personal walk in Christ, but it is God doing the leading and our submission to His will as to our faithfulness,. I have not, and I doubt there are any not needing God's intervention as we read of in Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Endure? The same word is also used in scripture as suffering in 2 Tim 2:12 (G5278).
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure (G5278) unto the end, the same shall be saved.
The KJV translates Strong's G5278 in the following manner: endure (11x), take patiently (2x), tarry behind (1x), abide (1x), patient (1x), suffer (1x - (This is 2 Tim 2:12)
2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer (endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (What will God deny us? It is the right to reign as a joint heir we read of in Rom 8:17)
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF so be that we suffer (Or endure?) with him, that we may be also glorified together. (To me scripture here is speaking of our reward; not the gift of God which is our salvation according to Rom 6:23 - eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.)
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet He (Jesus) abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (Who is this Himself Jesus cannot deny? US, His own body.)
Then you made the comment that seems to insinuate that Mat 24:13 is applied to all of us. Can you see by the following verses that Jesus is talking of the end time? (I personally expect to be in heaven with Jesus before the middle of the week of tribulation when the man of sin stands in the holy place: that is to be seen as God to an unbelieving world.)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Cygnus
Member
Chopper, can you start a new thread and present that theology? I've never heard it before.