OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

[Seabass]

So, to answer your question, "Are INDIVIDUALS UNconditionally sealed apart from the group called 'Christian?" The answer is YES. There are folk here in this Forum who are familiar with my theology of two classes or groups of Christians. So this is nothing new to these folk who refuse to accept Truth from God's Word, presented thru a dirt bag like me.

When I return with my presentation on the Remnant of God, I will once and for all prove the two classes of Christians, the Elect who are sealed and will not abandon Christ Jesus, and the second class who are not sealed and can fall away.

STAY TUNED!

If your answer is "Yes" then you are saying one does not have to be a Christian to be saved. Is that your position?

 

[atpollard]

If your answer is "Yes" then you are saying one does not have to be a Christian to be saved. Is that your position?

Are Abraham, Elijah and Moses Christians? Were they Christians when they were alive? Are they 'saved'? When Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration, was he a Christian then?

I have no idea what Chopper I'll answer, but I am pretty sure that while God chooses to use the church (people) to reach the lost, He is probably able to save people without our help. In that case, BEING saved (the transformation when one is 'born from above') makes one a Christian at that moment hover knowledgable or ignorant of the rest of the Body of Christ they are (and the Body is or them).

 

[for_his_glory]

I use to believe once saved always saved, but got a new insight to this. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Rev 2:10 all say that to those who endure unto the end are those who will be saved. The end of what you might ask, the end of all the trials and tribulations we face daily in this word of evil wickedness that surrounds us and will wax worse and worse until Jesus returns and calls His Bride to meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4. Those whose faith in Christ is weak as they never allow it to mature or build upon it will be more inclined to curse God (blasphemy the Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, 32) from their heart and completely turn away from Him denouncing God in their lives when not trusting God in all things when they face the trials and tribulations of this world and actually blame God for their torments.

Philippians Chapter Two gives us insight on how to endure by allowing ourselves to be humbled before the Father in all humility. Many come to the alter, but soon waver from it, but it is those who come to the alter of grace and are truly sealed by God who gives us His Spirit, 2Cor 1:22 and remain in the will of God through obedience to His word by applying it to their lives knowing that even when we face the evil of this world God is right there with us as we run the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1,2.

When we first accept Christ as our Lord and Savior through pure repentance we are only at that time delivered from our past sins as we begin our personal relationship with Jesus and true faith that is Christ will lead us into Gods righteousness as we have been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3-7, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

The only thing that can separate us from the love of God is blasphemy against His Holy Spirit, Matthew 12:31, which means coming against God and anyone who is truly sealed by His Spirit will not want to come against Him, but draw even closer to Him.

 

[Seabass]

Are Abraham, Elijah and Moses Christians? Were they Christians when they were alive? Are they 'saved'? When Moses appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration, was he a Christian then?

I have no idea what Chopper I'll answer, but I am pretty sure that while God chooses to use the church (people) to reach the lost, He is probably able to save people without our help. In that case, BEING saved (the transformation when one is 'born from above') makes one a Christian at that moment hover knowledgable or ignorant of the rest of the Body of Christ they are (and the Body is or them).

Christianity, the group Christian, did not yet exist when those OT characters were alive so they will not be held accountable for that. Those under the OT and us today under the NT will be saved the same way: by an obedient faith. An obedient faith for us today puts into that group Christian that is sealed.

For us today who are under the Christian dispensation, salvation can only be found within the group. This is why it cannot be found anywhere in the NT an INDIVIDUAL who was UNconditionally sealed apart from the group. It is the group that is sealed and the individual must CONDITIONALLY be in that group and faithfully remain in that group if he is to be sealed.

Yet Chopper by answering "yes" seems to be implying one can be saved outside the group Christian, outside the body of Christ.

 

[Cygnus]

When we first accept Christ as our Lord and Savior through pure repentance we are only at that time delivered from our past sins as we begin our personal relationship with Jesus and true faith that is Christ will lead us into Gods righteousness as we have been Spiritually renewed, John 3:3-7, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Not so. All of my sins were imputed to Jesus 2000 years ago when he hung on the cross.
At that time I had no past or present sins.....only future, any they were transfered to Christ at that time.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not so. All of my sins were imputed to Jesus 2000 years ago when he hung on the cross.
At that time I had no past or present sins.....only future, any they were transfered to Christ at that time.

Yes, this is true, but yet we are also told to confess our sins as we will fall short at times until we are arrayed in the fine linen, clean and white which is Gods righteousness when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; Rev 19:7-9; 1John 8-10.

 

[Cygnus]

Yes, this is true, but yet we are also told to confess our sins as we will fall short at times until we are arrayed in the fine linen, clean and white which is Gods righteousness when Christ returns, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57; Rev 19:7-9; 1John 8-10.

Christians should confess their sins all the time. That i don't disagree with...but the purpose isn't for salvation.
If what you say is the case then all you need is just one unconfessed sin....when you die....and you don't get into heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

Christians should confess their sins all the time. That i don't disagree with...but the purpose isn't for salvation.
If what you say is the case then all you need is just one unconfessed sin....when you die....and you don't get into heaven.

unconfessed sin can hinder our fellowship with God, but not separate us from Him. For example: if we sin against another we have put a kink in that relationship. By asking for forgiveness God has already forgiven us that particular sin even before we confess it. What we are asking is the one we sin against to forgive us when we confess we were in the wrong, 1John 1:5-7.

 

[Cygnus]

unconfessed sin can hinder our fellowship with God, but not separate us from Him. For example: if we sin against another we have put a kink in that relationship. By asking for forgiveness God has already forgiven us that particular sin even before we confess it. What we are asking is the one we sin against to forgive us when we confess we were in the wrong, 1John 1:5-7.

I agree 100%.

 

[Seabass]

unconfessed sin can hinder our fellowship with God, but not separate us from Him.

Sin is what separates one from God...Isaiah 59:2

For example: if we sin against another we have put a kink in that relationship. By asking for forgiveness God has already forgiven us that particular sin even before we confess it. What we are asking is the one we sin against to forgive us when we confess we were in the wrong, 1John 1:5-7.

God does not forgive until one first repents. Luke 13:3; 2 Chronicles 7:14

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." The conditional word "IF" shows sins are conditionally forgiven IF the Christian continues to walk in the light.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Again, the conditional "IF" shows sins are forgiven conditionally IF the Christian first confesses. The order of the verse has confess BEFORE forgiveness and cleansing.

Therefore God has NOT unconditionally already forgiven the Christians sins without the Christian first conditionally repenting. With some of the seven churches at Asia, God required repentance first BEFORE forgiveness Revelation 2:5; Revelation 2:21-22; Revelation 3:3. Simon had to first repent before finding forgiveness Acts 8:22; some Hebrew Christians were at risk of falling into a state where the could not be renewed again unto repentance becoming lost. God would not unconditionally forgive them while they remain impenitent.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sin is what separates one from God...Isaiah 59:2

God does not forgive until one first repents. Luke 13:3; 2 Chronicles 7:14

1 Jn 1:7 "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." The conditional word "IF" shows sins are conditionally forgiven IF the Christian continues to walk in the light.

1 Jn 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Again, the conditional "IF" shows sins are forgiven conditionally IF the Christian first confesses. The order of the verse has confess BEFORE forgiveness and cleansing.

Therefore God has NOT unconditionally already forgiven the Christians sins without the Christian first conditionally repenting. With some of the seven churches at Asia, God required repentance first BEFORE forgiveness Revelation 2:5; Revelation 2:21-22; Revelation 3:3. Simon had to first repent before finding forgiveness Acts 8:22; some Hebrew Christians were at risk of falling into a state where the could not be renewed again unto repentance becoming lost. God would not unconditionally forgive them while they remain impenitent.

It's like Adam when he sinned against God. God did not turn away from him, but the fellowship Adam had with God fell short as he tried to hide from God until Adam repented and ask for forgiveness.

 

[Cygnus]

God does not forgive until one first repents. Luke 13:3; 2 Chronicles 7:14

Repenting is coming to the understanding Jesus did it all.....to turn direction and accept Jesus did it all....and receive His salvation.

Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ. Got answers.

 

[FreeGrace]

From post #464, I said this:
"As a believer who is neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I would like to point out that biblical election has never been about salvation. Ever.

The Bible indicates (at least) 6 categories or types of election, and none are about salvation.
1. Election of Christ: an individual election
1 Pet 2:6 Isa 28:16 Isa 42:1 Luke 9:35 Luke 23:35
2. Election of Angels: a group or corporate election
1 Tim 5:21
3. Election of Israel: a group or corporate election
Amos 3:2 Deut 7:6 Acts 13:17
4. Election of believers: a group or corporate election
Eph 1:4a [note: this verse doesn’t say that God chose who would be believers, but that He chose believers…to be holy and blameless]
1 Peter 2:9
5. The Election of the 12 Disciples: a group or corporate election John 15:16

6. The Election of Paul: an individual election Acts 9:15

What each of these categories have in common is service, not salvation.

Thoughts?"

I expect much more from you FreeGrace I'm not even going to comment on anything further than your opening statement....

Well, at least thank you for your thoughts. However, having a closed mind to things of Scripture is hardly the way to go.

And I expect much more from you than such a flippant dismissal.

I provided verses that actually support my claim. And not so much as an acknowledgement.

Perhaps because you're not Armenian nor Calvinist, your neutral preconception of what Salvation really is, is marred. Election is Salvation.!! Certainly, you're not serious!

I certainly don't have "neutral preconception" of salvation. I have a biblical perception of salvation. And election, from my studies show that election isn't about salvation, but about service.

But since you can't get past my opening line, I guess there'll be no discussion.

 

[FreeGrace]

I use to believe once saved always saved, but got a new insight to this. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Rev 2:10 all say that to those who endure unto the end are those who will be saved. The end of what you might ask, the end of all the trials and tribulations we face daily in this word of evil wickedness that surrounds us and will wax worse and worse until Jesus returns and calls His Bride to meet Him in the air, 1 Thessalonians 4.

Matt 10 and 24 aren't about enduring for eternal soul salvation. Note the context around the verses. It's about the Great 7 year Tribulation.

But how about this for insight into the issue of eternal security:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

So, we know that those who have heard and believe HAVE eternal life. This means they have it the MOMENT when they first believed.

Now, John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Now we know how people HAVE eternal life. Jesus gives it to them.

And Jesus said, as a result of giving them eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Crystal clear. Jesus taught eternal security.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christians should confess their sins all the time. That i don't disagree with...but the purpose isn't for salvation.
If what you say is the case then all you need is just one unconfessed sin....when you die....and you don't get into heaven.

Also, if confession of sin is for salvation, then Jesus Christ died for nothing. Zero.

1 John 1:9 is quite clear; the whole issue of ch 1 is about fellowship. A believer needs to confess their sins for fellowship AND cleansing from their sin.

Yes, Jesus died for all sins. But we are forgiven of all sins on the basis of faith in Him, per Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

This is salvation. 1 John 1:9 is fellowship between the sinning believer and God and Christ.

 

[Seabass]

It's like Adam when he sinned against God. God did not turn away from him, but the fellowship Adam had with God fell short as he tried to hide from God until Adam repented and ask for forgiveness.

When Adam sinned he died spiritually, separated from God.

 

[Seabass]

Repenting is coming to the understanding Jesus did it all.....to turn direction and accept Jesus did it all....and receive His salvation.

Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ. Got answers.

Repentance means to make a change, to turn from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness. Revelation 2:5


For the CHristian, an impenitent Christian will not be forgiven, not have all sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7), and die lost in his sins.

 

[Seabass]

Also, if confession of sin is for salvation, then Jesus Christ died for nothing. Zero.

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

The purpose of confession is to "forgive us our sins" and to "cleanse us from all unrighteousness" which is salvation. Christ died and shed His blood that sins may be cleansed away and that cleansing from unrighteousness takes place when one confesses. Forgiveness, cleansing of sins, salvation being conditional (verse begins with the conditional word "IF") upon confession. No cheap grace where one can be impenitent of his sins, not confess them but forgiven and cleansed anyway unconditionally.

 

[billybalke]

Repentance means to make a change, to turn from doing unrighteousness to doing righteousness. Revelation 2:5


For the CHristian, an impenitent Christian will not be forgiven, not have all sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:7), and die lost in his sins.

True! And the best definition of repentance is from Jesus Himself in Matt.21:28-31,

 

[for_his_glory]

When Adam sinned he died spiritually, separated from God.

None of us are perfect, but are being perfected daily and will fall short at times and while in our sin God is not going to hear us until we repent of it and reestablish our fellowship with Him again. This is what Adam had to do is reestablish that fellowship. We are still in this carnal body that is a hostile enemy of God and this is why we crucify this flesh daily for when we are in the flesh we are not pleasing God.

John 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.