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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?

I don't know if I can really agree wth what you say is John Gills position....perhaps i have the wrong John Gill...but his commentary seems to differentiate between true believers and others when he wrote ..."and the difference between them, and true believers," or where he wrote "f they shall fall away,.... This is not supposed of true believers, as appears from Hebrews 6:9 nor is it to be supposed of them that they may fall totally and finally".....
Gills works can be seen here.

Now, considering I've never studied Gills, you may be correct...but I think he believed in the security of the believer.

I'm very sorry. I had been reading Gill but the Theologian was really Dr. Kenneth Wuest. His presentation is rather long but I think you'll find it interesting from a Greek Professor as I do....

Hebrews 6:4 by Professor Dr. Kenneth Wuest.

"And now the writer presents a most solemn warning to those among his readers who would persist in their leanings toward the First Testament and their abandonment of the New. It would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The Greek word translated "impossible" cannot be diluted to mean "difficult." The same word is used in Heb_6:18; Heb_10:4; Heb_11:6, where it can only mean "impossible." Likewise, the word "renew" must be taken in its full force. Expositor’s Greek Testament says that it means that those who have once experienced a renewal cannot again have a like experience. The person described cannot again be brought to a life-changing repentance. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the one who is approaching the act of faith in Christ. It is usually involved in that act, but can also exist separate and apart from it, as is seen in the present instance. These Hebrews had allowed the Holy Spirit to carry them along to the place of repentance. Now should they refuse the proffered faith by which they could lay hold of the High Priest as their Saviour, and return to the abrogated sacrifices of the First Testament, it would be impossible to bring them back to the act of repentance again. And as we have seen, the impossibility would inhere in their own spiritual condition, not in the grace of God.
In connection with this solemn warning, the writer reminds these Hebrews of all that a loving God had done for them. They were once enlightened. The word translated "once" is literally "once for all," and is used of that which is so done as to be of perpetual validity, and never needs repetition. That means that as these Hebrews listened to the message of the New Testament, the Holy Spirit enlightened their minds and hearts to clearly understand it. The work of the Spirit with reference to their understanding of New Testament truth had been so thorough that it needed never to be repeated for the purpose of making the truth clear to them. These Hebrews had understood these issues perfectly. The type was set aside for the reality, the First Testament for the New. They were enlightened as every sinner is enlightened who comes under the hearing of God’s Word. But as the unsaved in an evangelistic meeting today clearly understand the message of salvation but sometimes refuse the light and turn back into the darkness of sin and continued unbelief, so these Hebrews were in danger of doing a like thing.
They had tasted of the heavenly gift, and in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, for the words "once for all" qualify this word also. These Hebrews were like the spies at Kadesh-Barnea who saw the land and had the very fruit in their hands, and yet turned back (Heb_4:1-13). One of the pre-salvation ministries of the Spirit is to enable the unsaved who come under the hearing of the gospel, to have a certain appreciation of the blessedness of salvation. He equips them with a spiritual sense of taste with reference to the things of God. Many a sinner has been buoyed up by the message of the evangelist, has had stirrings in his bosom, has had a pleasant reaction towards the truth, and yet when the decision time came has said, "The world is too much with us," and has turned back into sin.
They had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost. We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold" (echo), and a preposition meaning "with" (meta), thus "to hold with." It is used in Luk_5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Heb_1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Heb_3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Heb_3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.
The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" "Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salva-tion ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1Pe_1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their unwillingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.
Translation: For it is impossible in the case of those who have been once for all enlightened, and have both tasted of the heavenly gift and have become participators in the Holy Spirit."
 
I'd sure love to see some evidence for this idea from Scipture. Having read through the NT monthly for about 15 years, I've seen such an idea. Maybe I've just missed it.

Here's just one of several in Hebrews....Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it."
 
Gentlemen. I'd like to inject some thoughts that might or might not help in this thread. First, I'll throw out a basic warning that the writer of Hebrews put out there for Christians.

The first is Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it." Now, most Theologians who separate the Elect Bride from the general population of the Church of today, claim that the Elect Bride cannot loose their Salvation because they have been chosen by Almighty God as a remnant to represent Him in every dispensation and generation.

Ok, if the Elect Bride can't loose their Salvation, then who is the writer of Hebrews referring to in Hebrews 2:1?

Also there is Hebrews 6:4-6 These are Hebrews who have believed on Jesus, as it indicates from the clear statements, probably lived a life powered by the Holy Spirit BUT at some point, left Christianity to go back to their Old Covenant roots. Not only did they fall away, but they can't get back.

Ok, consider what I've written. If you all understand what I've written, there is more to come. If you don't grasp what I've written, we'll stop here because I don't like debate and wasting my time. I'm to old for that.

Which one do you think you are?

The elect bride or just a mere christian?
 
Hebrews 6:4 by Professor Dr. Kenneth Wuest.

"And now the writer presents a most solemn warning to those among his readers who would persist in their leanings toward the First Testament and their abandonment of the New. It would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The Greek word translated "impossible" cannot be diluted to mean "difficult." The same word is used in Heb_6:18; Heb_10:4; Heb_11:6, where it can only mean "impossible." Likewise, the word "renew" must be taken in its full force. Expositor’s Greek Testament says that it means that those who have once experienced a renewal cannot again have a like experience. The person described cannot again be brought to a life-changing repentance. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the one who is approaching the act of faith in Christ. It is usually involved in that act, but can also exist separate and apart from it, as is seen in the present instance. These Hebrews had allowed the Holy Spirit to carry them along to the place of repentance. Now should they refuse the proffered faith by which they could lay hold of the High Priest as their Saviour, and return to the abrogated sacrifices of the First Testament, it would be impossible to bring them back to the act of repentance again. And as we have seen, the impossibility would inhere in their own spiritual condition, not in the grace of God.

Contract aka Covenant
Old Contract is replaced with the New Contract, with a clause that you can't ever go back to Old Contract and return to New Contract?
Old Contract require Sacrifice of Animals with Blood for your sin, New Contract replaces that process, if you return to another Sacrifice System then you cant return again?
 
I said this:
"I'd sure love to see some evidence for this idea from Scipture. Having read through the NT monthly for about 15 years, I've (never) fixed typo seen such an idea. Maybe I've just missed it."
Here's just one of several in Hebrews....Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it."
My comment was about losing salvation. Drifting away, falling away must refer to leaving the faith, not leaving salvation. Even Jesus noted some who "believe for a while and in time of testing/temptation, fall away" in Luke 8:13.

The issue is about salvation, not ceasing to believe. While one can cease to believe, they cannot cease to be saved.

The reason is clear: Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. There is no room for the idea of losing salvation in His straightforward statement.
 
I'm very sorry. I had been reading Gill but the Theologian was really Dr. Kenneth Wuest. His presentation is rather long but I think you'll find it interesting from a Greek Professor as I do....

Hebrews 6:4 by Professor Dr. Kenneth Wuest.

"And now the writer presents a most solemn warning to those among his readers who would persist in their leanings toward the First Testament and their abandonment of the New. It would be impossible to renew them again to repentance. The Greek word translated "impossible" cannot be diluted to mean "difficult." The same word is used in Heb_6:18; Heb_10:4; Heb_11:6, where it can only mean "impossible." Likewise, the word "renew" must be taken in its full force. Expositor’s Greek Testament says that it means that those who have once experienced a renewal cannot again have a like experience. The person described cannot again be brought to a life-changing repentance. Repentance is a work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the one who is approaching the act of faith in Christ. It is usually involved in that act, but can also exist separate and apart from it, as is seen in the present instance. These Hebrews had allowed the Holy Spirit to carry them along to the place of repentance. Now should they refuse the proffered faith by which they could lay hold of the High Priest as their Saviour, and return to the abrogated sacrifices of the First Testament, it would be impossible to bring them back to the act of repentance again. And as we have seen, the impossibility would inhere in their own spiritual condition, not in the grace of God.
In connection with this solemn warning, the writer reminds these Hebrews of all that a loving God had done for them. They were once enlightened. The word translated "once" is literally "once for all," and is used of that which is so done as to be of perpetual validity, and never needs repetition. That means that as these Hebrews listened to the message of the New Testament, the Holy Spirit enlightened their minds and hearts to clearly understand it. The work of the Spirit with reference to their understanding of New Testament truth had been so thorough that it needed never to be repeated for the purpose of making the truth clear to them. These Hebrews had understood these issues perfectly. The type was set aside for the reality, the First Testament for the New. They were enlightened as every sinner is enlightened who comes under the hearing of God’s Word. But as the unsaved in an evangelistic meeting today clearly understand the message of salvation but sometimes refuse the light and turn back into the darkness of sin and continued unbelief, so these Hebrews were in danger of doing a like thing.
They had tasted of the heavenly gift, and in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of its character and quality, for the words "once for all" qualify this word also. These Hebrews were like the spies at Kadesh-Barnea who saw the land and had the very fruit in their hands, and yet turned back (Heb_4:1-13). One of the pre-salvation ministries of the Spirit is to enable the unsaved who come under the hearing of the gospel, to have a certain appreciation of the blessedness of salvation. He equips them with a spiritual sense of taste with reference to the things of God. Many a sinner has been buoyed up by the message of the evangelist, has had stirrings in his bosom, has had a pleasant reaction towards the truth, and yet when the decision time came has said, "The world is too much with us," and has turned back into sin.
They had been made partakers of the Holy Ghost. We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold" (echo), and a preposition meaning "with" (meta), thus "to hold with." It is used in Luk_5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Heb_1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Heb_3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Heb_3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.
The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" "Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salva-tion ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1Pe_1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their unwillingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.
Translation: For it is impossible in the case of those who have been once for all enlightened, and have both tasted of the heavenly gift and have become participators in the Holy Spirit."

Chopper thanks for the above. As I read the above it seems as if Professor Dr. Kenneth Wuest view is that the Hebrews being mentioned here were never saved.
 
The issue is about salvation, not ceasing to believe. While one can cease to believe, they cannot cease to be saved.

Faith is the avenue of which God saves us. When a person turns from faith, they most certainly turn from salvation also.

Faith and salvation are inseparable. When you deny one, you are denying the other.

Acts 15
7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

Acts 14
21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Hebrews 3
12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
 
Faith is the avenue of which God saves us. When a person turns from faith, they most certainly turn from salvation also.

Heretical IMHO and can't be biblically shown to be truth. This has been demonstrated to you numerous times Nathan. Why don't you move on?
You know, agree to disagree.
 
There seems to be a side discussion topic about election and predestination being discussed. I think it would be best to start another thread so not to hijack this one.
 
Heretical IMHO and can't be biblically shown to be truth. This has been demonstrated to you numerous times Nathan. Why don't you move on?
You know, agree to disagree.
I see you left out the passages I posted? So you call something heretical without showing any proof of it. A false accuser does such things. I forgive you Cygnus, but you need to examine your heart.

1 John 1
5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If you disagree with me so strongly then show how faith is not the avenue of salvation.
 
I see you left out the passages I posted? So you call something heretical without showing any proof of it. A false accuser does such things. I forgive you Cygnus, but you need to examine your heart.

Of course I left them out....you took them out of context and assignd a false meaning to them.
Now, if you want to go on believing you can lose your salvation....have at it.
 
Which one do you think you are?

The elect bride or just a mere christian?

Well Brother, no one really knows for sure if they were chosen according to....
Ephesians 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"


Your usage of the words "mere christian" is not what I would use. The folk that I'm referring to are those who answer the call to Salvation thru the "General Call of the Gospel" I would think that Billy Graham would be classified as one of the Elect, and those who were saved under his preaching, came thru the General Call.

Me? Only Jesus knows. I have had the honor to be a Shepherd of several flocks of The great Shepherd of the Sheep, an Evangelist, and Teacher of God's Word. Thru the Holy Spirit working thru me, many, many folk have entered the Kingdom of God thru the forgiveness of their sins, repentance, and believing by faith in the Son of God, Jesus, by the Grace of God the Father.

One would benefit greatly by a thorough study of John Calvin's theology. We must reject his "L" Limited atonement. Let me refresh your knowledge of Calvin's TULIP....

Total Depravity: (No one is capable of saving oneself).
Unconditional Election: God's choosing of the saved isn't conditioned by anything in them).
Limited Atonement: (Christ's atonement is adequate to save all people but is efficient for God's Elect only).
Irresistible Grace: (The sovereignly given gift of faith cannot be rejected by the Elect).
Perseverance of the saints (Those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith).

Because, for some reason, Calvin did not address John 3:16. Therefore I reject Limited Atonement. I have added to his theology the "General Call of the Gospel" which places two classes of Believers in Christ Jesus. The Elect and the General Call Christians. You can see them in most Bible believing Churches. There are those folks who do everything (Elect) and those who only warm a pew (General Call). That's not to say that some of the General Call Christians don't get real serious and function like the Elect.

The Elect are the Bride of Christ and will be raptured pre-trib....Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." And the pew warmers will have to endure the first half of the tribulation period...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (
That happens at the 3 1/2 year point).

I feel sorry for the poor deceived Brethren that reject Calvin's Reformation theology. I've been a student of Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion" for probably 20 - 25 years. I find that those who reject Calvin, don't really know much about his positions, just what they've heard from others.
 
Contract aka Covenant
Old Contract is replaced with the New Contract, with a clause that you can't ever go back to Old Contract and return to New Contract?
Old Contract require Sacrifice of Animals with Blood for your sin, New Contract replaces that process, if you return to another Sacrifice System then you cant return again?

That's exactly right.
 
I said this:
"I'd sure love to see some evidence for this idea from Scipture. Having read through the NT monthly for about 15 years, I've (never) fixed typo seen such an idea. Maybe I've just missed it."

My comment was about losing salvation. Drifting away, falling away must refer to leaving the faith, not leaving salvation. Even Jesus noted some who "believe for a while and in time of testing/temptation, fall away" in Luke 8:13.

The issue is about salvation, not ceasing to believe. While one can cease to believe, they cannot cease to be saved.

The reason is clear: Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. There is no room for the idea of losing salvation in His straightforward statement.

You seem confused. Leaving the faith is the same as leaving Salvation. You say....
"While one can cease to believe, they cannot cease to be saved." Excuse Me? If they cease to believe, they become lost!!
 
Of course I left them out....you took them out of context and assignd a false meaning to them.
Now, if you want to go on believing you can lose your salvation....have at it.
More false accusations. Are you that hardened in your heart you do not hear yourself?

I quoted the passages exactly as they are read. Only those who want to believe in a lie will deny what they say.

You have such a hateful heart toward me you will not listen to what I am saying. Why?

You may call it "loosing" salvation, but it is actually a more accurate statement to say a person falls/walks/turns away. "Loosing" always didn't sit well with me because it implies the person does not know where something went. That is not the case when someone turns from God.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."
 
Chopper thanks for the above. As I read the above it seems as if Professor Dr. Kenneth Wuest view is that the Hebrews being mentioned here were never saved.

O boy my friend. I wonder is Jesus' parable about the seeds sown on the ground etc. could have a bearing on this?
 
More false accusations. Are you that hardened in your heart you do not hear yourself?

I quoted the passages exactly as they are read. Only those who want to believe in a lie will deny what they say.

You have such a hateful heart toward me you will not listen to what I am saying. Why?

You may call it "loosing" salvation, but it is actually a more accurate statement to say a person falls/walks/turns away. "Loosing" always didn't sit well with me because it implies the person does not know where something went. That is not the case when someone turns from God.

2 Peter 2
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

Hi Nathan. Just wanted you to know that I'm in agreement with you. As I view what you said, I'm thinking of this....
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God".... I would think that the "Word of God" is the Gospel.

8:12 "Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.".... These people never had a chance!

8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away".... Ah, here we go with, as you say, "falls/walks/turns away". Now, this poses a question in my mind. Jesus says here, "they believe for a while" hmm, for a year? 10 years, then comes temptation and they "Fall away".

8:14 "And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection." .... These folk "hear, and go forth". I would think these only believed for a very short time before Satan, like verse 12, floods their minds with cares, riches, and pleasures (Boys with their toys). Choked results in no life. Strong's says, "to strangle completely"

8:15 "But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience." The only ones truly saved and sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit.

May the Lord bless you Nathan....I Love You,
Chopper
 
I'm thinking of putting you on my ignore list. Please grow up and stop with the babyness.

Cygnus, I think that you both should grow up and stop this DEBATE before one of you seriously offends the other. It looks to me like words of hatred between you two. I don't think Reba will mind if I use her name. She and I don't like to see two Brothers throwing, one of Reba favorite words, SNARKY remarks back and forth.

I like this verse....
1John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."


Come on guys. remember this....Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

So, if Christ liveth in Nathan, and Christ Liveth in Cyrus, Who are you insulting with all your words which certainly are not loving. I'll tell you....Jesus Who lives in you both!!

I Love you Two!
Chopper
 
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