Cygnus
Member
Posters often do that to try to make their point. Typically when the entire "thought" is examined their view falls. Such is the case with OSNAS. That theology turns into a form of works based salvation.
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OSAS winning Christ? OSNAS just hanging on?
- Thread starter Eugene
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Posters often do that to try to make their point. Typically when the entire "thought" is examined their view falls. Such is the case with OSNAS. That theology turns into a form of works based salvation.
speaking evil of God in face of knowing truth then denying that truth
chessman
Member
Ture. And I'm not immune to this fault.
billybalke
Member
Read Mark 3
I agreed to everything until the blue words. If confession is salvation, then every time we confess our sins we are getting saved then???
How does that make any sense? We NEED to confess our sins for cleansing/purification in order to have fellowship with Him.
That was Jesus' point to ol' pebblehead Peter in John 13 when Jesus was washing the disciples' feet and Peter refused. So Jesus said if He didn't wash Peter's feet, Peter would have no part with Him. This is a partnership, fellowship. So Peter asked for a bath, when all that is needed is to have the feet washed. And Jesus had just affirmed the salvation of all the 11 disciples in v.10, excepting Judas, who was never saved.
In that day, people used the same paths as the animals, and their feet got "dirty". So the feet had to be washed before a person could enter a home or business.
Can you imagine trying to have fellowship with a friend who walked in dog doo and then came into your home? There wouldn't be any fellowship. The stink would be too much. Same for our sins, which stink before God. So we need cleansing for fellowship, which is what 1 John 1 is about.
No, John never made that mistake. That's like saying every parent and child has fellowship in their permanent relationship. We all know that's not true. In every parent-child relationship, there may be fellowship or not.
So fellowship is not salvation.
Cygnus said: ↑
Every time you sin you are against Jesus.
You should rethink your theology.
1 Cor 8:12 - When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
To take your view a bit further, when a believer sins, which is disobedience to God, is that FOR Christ, then?
That seems to be where your view is headed.
Every time you sin you are against Jesus.
You should rethink your theology.
All sin is against Christ, who died for our sins.
1 Cor 8:12 - When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
It's not based on 1 Cor 8:12.
1 Cor 8:12
To take your view a bit further, when a believer sins, which is disobedience to God, is that FOR Christ, then?
That seems to be where your view is headed.
Jesus said He gives eternal life and they shall never perish, in John 10:28. Where is the condition for repentance in His promise?
Why didn't He mention ANY conditions in John 10:28, if there ARE conditions?
The SOLE BASIS for never perishing is to be given eternal life. So said Jesus.
Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in order to never perish. John 10:28
Rather, if one can lose their promised salvation, then God's promises mean nothing. And Christ's death for all sin means nothing.
The fact is that those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.
Therefore, salvation cannot be lost.
Impossible, IF Jesus' words mean anything. And we know that Jesus' words mean everything. They are truth.
Please provide an explantation of what this means.
It does sound as though sinning after salvation means one wasn't born again. So, what does it mean?
The way around your view is from the Bible:
Eph 2:8-9
For we have been saved by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
There can be NO works involved in salvation, or it won't be by grace.
Nathan
Member
Notice what Paul says, "when you sin against your brothers IN THIS WAY....". He is stating that when someone puts a stumbling block in front of another brother, even if it is NOT sin to do it himself, he does sin against Christ because he is causing that brother to stumble - even if it is not sin for himself.
When you pull one verse out of a passage its easy to twist it to make it sound like something it is not.
1Co 8:8-9
Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
Nathan
Member
John is explaining how we can know if a person is in Christ, or not in Christ.
1Jo 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
John is saying, in very clear language, that a person who practices sin is not born of God. The person who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Most importantly, many people who claim to believe in Jesus as the Christ do not actually believe that He appeared to destroy the works of the devil. They claim that Christ saved them, yet they deny that He saved them from slavery to sin. It is these people who are liars and are still enslaved to sin.
The one who truly believes Jesus is the Son of God, believes that Jesus set them free from the bondage to sin. His blood was the ransom that paid for our freedom. To deny that you are free is to deny His blood.
29 pages later and it still is not settled
I asked this:
"Please provide an explantation of what this means.
It does sound as though sinning after salvation means one wasn't born again. So, what does it mean?"
v.8 - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
The explanation:
"born of God" refers to one regenerated, and has therefore become a "new creature" per 2 Co 5:17.
The reason one does not "make a practice of sinning" is because of the next phrase; "for God's seed abides in him". Who is this? It is the Holy Spirit.
Recall from 1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
So, we've been born again (regenerated) of imperishable seed. Seed that cannot perish.
All this refers to our NEW nature, which is why Paul describes believers as being "new creatures" in 2 Cor 5:17.
So, by being born again, we now have 2 natures within us; the original human nature, or sin nature, from which we sin, AND the new nature, from which we CANNOT sin.
Where would one think the Holy Spirit dwells within us? The sin nature, or the new nature? It makes utterly no sense to think He resides in our sin nature. He dwells in our new nature.
Now, Paul commands believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). In the next verse, Paul describes the battle between our 2 natures: 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Paul also commands believers to stop grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18).
Only when the believer is in fellowship and is filled with the Spirit and walking by His means will he not be able to sin. It's an impossibility, because he is functioning from the new nature.
However, WHEN the believer is out of fellowship and is either grieving or quenching the Spirit, that means the believer is functioning from the sin nature, NOT the new nature.
So 1 Jn 3:9 is a statement about how NOT to sin. Function from the new nature.
I have given a thorough explanation of this verse. If there is disagreement with any of it, please address each point made and explain why and how my points are not biblical.
Thanks.
"Please provide an explantation of what this means.
It does sound as though sinning after salvation means one wasn't born again. So, what does it mean?"
No, he's not.
Nope. He's not saying that either.
And, no, he didn't say that either.
v.8 - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
The explanation:
"born of God" refers to one regenerated, and has therefore become a "new creature" per 2 Co 5:17.
The reason one does not "make a practice of sinning" is because of the next phrase; "for God's seed abides in him". Who is this? It is the Holy Spirit.
Recall from 1 Peter 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
So, we've been born again (regenerated) of imperishable seed. Seed that cannot perish.
All this refers to our NEW nature, which is why Paul describes believers as being "new creatures" in 2 Cor 5:17.
So, by being born again, we now have 2 natures within us; the original human nature, or sin nature, from which we sin, AND the new nature, from which we CANNOT sin.
Where would one think the Holy Spirit dwells within us? The sin nature, or the new nature? It makes utterly no sense to think He resides in our sin nature. He dwells in our new nature.
Now, Paul commands believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18) and to walk by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). In the next verse, Paul describes the battle between our 2 natures: 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Paul also commands believers to stop grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching the Spirit (1 Thess 5:18).
Only when the believer is in fellowship and is filled with the Spirit and walking by His means will he not be able to sin. It's an impossibility, because he is functioning from the new nature.
However, WHEN the believer is out of fellowship and is either grieving or quenching the Spirit, that means the believer is functioning from the sin nature, NOT the new nature.
So 1 Jn 3:9 is a statement about how NOT to sin. Function from the new nature.
I have given a thorough explanation of this verse. If there is disagreement with any of it, please address each point made and explain why and how my points are not biblical.
Thanks.
Edward
2024 Supporter
What you say here is exactly correct, there is no works involved in salvation...but the Lord expects obedience. We're told to abide in the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit will lead you into good works. That's what He does, among other things. No Spirit led? Now's where you can get in trouble. We can't say save me, now I'm going to sit down and not do anything. I never knew you...
We were bought with a price. When we give ourselves to the Lord, then we present ourselves to Him. Here am I, Lord. And allow the Holy Spirit to lead us. If we quench the Spirit then we'll prolly bear no fruit. I dunno about you, Brother. But I don't want to show up alone.
Nathan
Member
I think John is clear enough to say exactly what he meant to say. He is quite clear, those in Christ don't practice sin, those not in Christ are evident by what they do. Twisting what he says to fit a theology is the same as not believing what he says.
1 John 3
6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Question for you is if you believe that someone who doesn't practice righteousness is of God? Can a person in Christ hate his brother?
I requested that where there is disagreement with any of my points, to please address them one by one. Just a broad sweep of a brush in dismissal doesn't prove a thing.
I actually exegeted the verse. So show me where and how my exegesis went wrong if there is disagreement.
Please stop with the false charge of "twisting", since you've FAILED to show how I have.
There is no reason to assume that any believer is incapable of any sin. We STILL have our sinful nature, which is shown very clearly in Gal 5:17 - For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
There is a war within us between the sinful nature and our new born again regenerated nature. They are contrary to each other.
When we function from the sin nature, we sin. Period.
When we function from the new nature, filled with the Holy Spirit, we CANNOT sin. Period.
Again, if there is disagreement, please provide an explanation of why and how I am in error.
The way each believer overcomes is to live their life according to the Spirit, whereby they do not obey unrighteousness by practicing the works of the flesh, but rather they obey the truth and practice righteousness.
Those who do not overcome, but practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit eternal life; will not inherit the kingdom of God.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21
JLB
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Nathan
Member
I did not charge you with that. I was making a statement. If you feel like it was directed toward you then it is your own conscience - I would listen to it.
I have no need to go back and forth with you. That is why I said what I did. John is clear. The words we read are clear. The person who does righteousness is righteous, the one who practices sin is of the devil. There is no way to confuse that simple truth, and the only way to confuse it is if 'someone' twists it. Are you twisting it to mean something it does not say?
1Jo 3:4-10
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Do you believe that someone who abides in Him can keep on sinning? Do you believe that someone who practices sin can be of God?