but not coming right out and saying it ?? maybe because the Writer knew better
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Our God and Savior, Jesus Christ
- Thread starter MisterE
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No, it comes right out and says it.
Mat 1:22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Mat 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us). (ESV)
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV)
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (ESV)
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Joh 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (ESV)
Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, “‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; (ESV)
Rom 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (ESV)
1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (ESV)
Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, (ESV)
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)
Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (ESV)
2Pe 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: (ESV)
Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.” (ESV)
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)
So, Jesus claimed to be God, the result of which was that John, Luke, Paul, Peter, and the writer of Hebrews all had no issue writing about Jesus being God. Sometimes it is implied, but that is also because they are avoiding any confusion between the Father and the Son--they are not one and the same, but they are both equally God. But the one thing we absolutely cannot do, is ignore or otherwise twist the meaning of those verses which clearly show the deity of Jesus.
you are close to being right had you said'' Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as a god ''
- Apr 22, 2011
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Jesus is not "a god", but God the Father of all creation, but since the Watch Tower Society would dis-fellowship you from the "Kingdom Hall" in believeing these scriptures then that is between you, God and your salvation through Christ Jesus. The NWT is written by misinformed man as the Watch Tower gave these men what to write, and not from the inspiration of God through the Holy Spirit to have what God wants us to learn. You have mentioned that you are not a JW, but yet you follow that of what they write.
Scriptures that reference Jesus being referred to as God, not a god.
John 1:1-14; John 10:30; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8, 9; 1 John 5:7, 8, 20; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 3:17; 13:14; Isaiah 9:6; 44:6; Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:23; 28:19; John 14:16, 17; Genesis 1:1, 2 (cross reference John 1:1-14); 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Colossians 1:15-17; John 14:9-11; Philippians 2:5-8; Rev 1:8
Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.''
the image of the invisible God ? what is a image ?? = : a visual representation of something
representation = the action of speaking or acting on behalf of someone or the state of being so represented.
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KJV Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
NWT Exodus 20:3 You must not have any other gods besides me
KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
NWT John 1:1In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god.
John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
Please notice the difference between "and the word was God" compared to "and the word was a god that was added to the scriptures making Jesus a created idol god. Like this adding an "a" changes the whole context of scripture and becomes very deceiving. Rev 22:18-19.
I'm not going to get into the lengthy history of the NWT, but if you read the full of how this translation came to be by man's commentaries of interpretations who were self anointed men called from the Watch Tower Society that was formed by Charles Taze Russel in 1879. It is always a good thing to look up the foundation of any religion as not all are of God. Like many religions JW's believe they are the only ones that Jesus will come back for.
New World Translation - Wikipedia
who was it that said '' “It is written, ‘It is the LORD your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” ?KJV Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
NWT Exodus 20:3 You must not have any other gods besides me
KJV John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
NWT John 1:1In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was a god.
John 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
Please notice the difference between "and the word was God" compared to "and the word was a god that was added to the scriptures making Jesus a created idol god. Like this adding an "a" changes the whole context of scripture and becomes very deceiving. Rev 22:18-19.
I'm not going to get into the lengthy history of the NWT, but if you read the full of how this translation came to be by man's commentaries of interpretations who were self anointed men called from the Watch Tower Society that was formed by Charles Taze Russel in 1879. It is always a good thing to look up the foundation of any religion as not all are of God. Like many religions JW's believe they are the only ones that Jesus will come back for.
New World Translation - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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And who then accepted worship from his followers?
Mat 14:31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."
It is also very important to also note the context--the ceasing of the storm--and the confession "Truly you are the Son of God."
Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
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Mat 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.
First, when he had risen. Second, when they went to see him just prior to his ascension.
Luk 24:50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,
During his ascension.
Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
Joh 9:36 He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?"
Joh 9:37 Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you."
Joh 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.
Note that the context begins with Jesus miraculously healing of a man born blind and then asking the man if he believed "in the Son of Man.”
Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
The Father telling the angels to worship the Son.
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
In heaven, the Son being worshiped alongside the Father.
But what happens when other people or angels are worshiped?
Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
(All ESV.)
Clearly then, God alone is to be worshiped, yet we see that Jesus is worshiped during his ministry and time on earth--in significant contexts and without a single rebuke from Jesus--and then in heaven. This simply could not be if Jesus was not truly God.
in the minds eye ,what is seen is bowing, its a form of obeisance, which is a gesture of respect . There are ones you would bow to and those you would not , suddenly finding your self before the one that has demonstrated godlike abilities had better make you bend your knees even the face to the floor.
to call that worship is a bit of a stretch . if what was seen was bending ,standing, bending ,standing ,bending ,standing .that would be worship. I am confident that's not what was happening .
- Apr 22, 2011
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There is no point in answering this as you deny the Trinity/Deity of Christ Jesus that a few of us have been trying to explain to you. I'm so glad my sister saw the errors made in the NWT and came back to Christ.
you hold to a belief in something that does not exist ? and you would like to tell me I don't know God? the Bible is so clear that the
God is complete in himself .all other god's ,some of them Trinity gods are as phony as it gets. you like to speak of Jesus being a equal part with God ,and some other spirit person ,that then Jesus separated from the body of the Trinity for 33 years to then leave a incomplete God in the heavens . by dividing God ,a third of his perfection was gone .maybe you should rethink that Trinity thing.
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You don’t understand the Trinity at all. First study the doctrine and know what it states, then come back and fix your post.
- Apr 22, 2011
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You either accept the scriptures or try and understand them as I/we have given you the scriptures word for word. If you want to believe Jesus was a created human being being a god and died on a stake then you know nothing other than what the Watch Tower has indoctrinated into your mind. There is nothing more I can give you and I pray the Holy Spirit will open your eyes before it's to late.
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Timothy 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
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You are confident, but have no basis for such confidence You're ignoring the context I gave, which is precisely why I gave it, because it really matters.
In Matt. 14:32-33, Jesus ceased the storm, showing control over creation, which would have brought to mind passages such as Job 26:12, Ps. 65:7, 89:9, and 107:29-30. Even Jesus's walking on the water would have brought to mind a passage such as Job 9:8. This context is significant. There is simply no way that this wasn't true worship, as it was clearly out of awe for what they had witnessed, reminding them of Yahweh's words in the OT.
It is also significant that they said, "Truly you are the Son of God." As I have shown, the Jews twice showed that they understood Jesus's claim to be the Son of God as a claim to be equal to God. And that fits with what they had just witnessed and with their subsequent worship of him.
It is also worth noting, again, firstly, that the Father told the angels to worship the Son, and secondly, that in Revelation, as the Lamb, Jesus is worshiped alongside the Father. That is true worship.
I also want to highlight this statement of yours: "suddenly finding your self before the one that has demonstrated godlike abilities had better make you bend your knees even the face to the floor."
No. One would only do that if they are sure the one doing it was God himself.
Rev 13:3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”
Rev 13:5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.
Rev 13:6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
...
Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people,
Rev 13:14 and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. (ESV)
Even the miraculous is not an indication that one is worthy of worship.
oh ...I do know what it is . do you know what it is ? and then if its not what you wanted it to be , then what ? please. I found this to be a great read https://www.ucg.org/learn/bible-stu...-ancient-trinitarian-gods-influenced-adoption
What do you mean by "them Trinity gods?" Those of us who believe in the Trinity do not believe in three Gods, but in one God, Who exists in three persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit.
SolaScriptura
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with all respect, from someone who is a Trinitarian, there has, nor can be, a human being, who can "understand" the Trinity. This is humanly impossible!
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Yes, of course, but my meaning is that the post shows a complete lack of understanding a historic, orthodox definition of the Trinity; it is a straw man.
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First, going to the United Church for truth in theology is like a box of chocolates. They are apostate. Second, to make the claim that "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan," based on the information in the first half of the blog, is the non-sequitur fallacy, that is, it doesn't follow that just because there are examples of triune gods in ancient religions that that is where the Christian Trinity comes from.
Third, why couldn't it be the case that pagans were given truth of God's triune nature by God, so that when the time came for God to more fully reveal his triune nature through Christ, that pagans would be more likely to believe it?
From the last half of the blog:
"The origin of the conception is entirely pagan"
Egyptologist Arthur Weigall, while himself a Trinitarian, summed up the influence of ancient beliefs on the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by the Catholic Church in the following excerpt from his previously cited book:"It must not be forgotten that Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord; and the origin of the conception is entirely pagan . . .
"The ancient Egyptians, whose influence on early religious thought was profound, usually arranged their gods or goddesses in trinities: there was the trinity of Osiris, Isis, and Horus, the trinity of Amen, Mut, and Khonsu, the trinity of Khnum, Satis, and Anukis, and so forth . . .
"The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognized the mysterious and undefined existence of the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One . . .
"The application of this old pagan conception of a Trinity to Christian theology was made possible by the recognition of the Holy Spirit as the required third 'Person,' co-equal with the other 'Persons' . . .
"The idea of the Spirit being co-equal with God was not generally recognised until the second half of the Fourth Century A.D. . . . In the year 381 the Council of Constantinople added to the earlier Nicene Creed a description of the Holy Spirit as 'the Lord, and giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and Son together is worshipped and glorified.' . . .
"Thus, the Athanasian creed, which is a later composition but reflects the general conceptions of Athanasius [the 4th-century Trinitarian whose view eventually became official doctrine] and his school, formulated the conception of a co-equal Trinity wherein the Holy Spirit was the third 'Person'; and so it was made a dogma of the faith, and belief in the Three in One and One in Three became a paramount doctrine of Christianity, though not without terrible riots and bloodshed . . .
"Today a Christian thinker . . . has no wish to be precise about it, more especially since the definition is obviously pagan in origin and was not adopted by the Church until nearly three hundred years after Christ" (pp. 197-203).
James Bonwick summarized the story well on page 396 of his 1878 work Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought: "It is an undoubted fact that more or less all over the world the deities are in triads. This rule applies to eastern and western hemispheres, to north and south.
"Further, it is observed that, in some mystical way, the triad of three persons is one. The first is as the second or third, the second as first or third, the third as first or second; in fact, they are each other, one and the same individual being. The definition of Athanasius, who lived in Egypt, applies to the trinities of all heathen religions."
Most of that is fallaciously begging the question--they're assuming the very thing in their premises that they conclude.
