Past Lives?

[Randy]

Not all ChristI and are like that. I have stated before that although I believe that Christ is necessary for salvation, (and the ones that believe automatically go to Heaven) I don't really believe that belief in Him is. Sure I believe that whoever doesn't believe stands condemned already, but that doesn't mean that acceptions and appeals can't be made. I'm not sure what I believe in God giving people or animals a second chance at life here on earth though.

It has been appointed to man to die once then face judgment.

Not all ChristI and are like that. I have stated before that although I believe that Christ is necessary for salvation, (and the ones that believe automatically go to Heaven) I don't really believe that belief in Him is. Sure I believe that whoever doesn't believe stands condemned already, but that doesn't mean that acceptions and appeals can't be made. I'm not sure what I believe in God giving people or animals a second chance at life here on earth though.

With light comes accountability. In the past pre-gospel God left the sins unpunished and even those who died in the days of Noah apart from law and pre-gospel were judged according to the flesh that they may live according to the spirit. The Spirits in prison Jesus descended to alive by the Spirit and preached/redeemed them by grace and by His blood. AS God is a just God. But "Justice to the nations" as in repent was sent to all nations.
AS the Father has stated about His Son, "Here is my servant whom I have chosen, the one I love, in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will proclaim justice to the nations." (With light comes accountability) So the wrath of God has also been proclaimed with the hope of eternal ilife in Christ Jesus so that all who are willing may live and never die.

People are without excuse.
Jesus=>If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. Again with light comes accountability -Justice to the nations

No one enters the kingdom of God or comes to the Father except by Jesus. No one = zero for those who love math. As in 1+1+1=3

Two asked something of Jesus on the cross and only One received a reply. "Today you shall be with me in paradise". That is the One who humbled Himself and believed in Jesus. "LORD will you remember me when you come into your Kingdom" The sarcastic one didn't receive any reply. "If" your the Son of God get us off this cross"

 

[jasonc]

Since Christianity in essence stems from Jeduaism , can we deduce from this that Bible reveals pre-existence?

No,it doesn't. We are a soul ,which includes a body. The greeKS thought the body was evil ,christians today have taken that view when the unredeemed actions by the body damn the soul,as the persons thoughts direct it.we dont come back as spirits but have flesh like Jesus.

 

[KevinK]

When Hebrews 9:27 is read in context, I think it is clear that reincarnation was not a topic on the table - but it says what it says, and the words are contrary to reincarnation.

But is it, necessarily contrary? As I said in my other post, there could be an alternate meaning. Hebrews 9:27 is usually translated, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Maybe it just means that there is a mandatory review after each life, then a judgment where the person is to go next. They may go to Heaven, they may go to Hell, but maybe they are sent back to earth for another life.

 

[Runner]

But is it, necessarily contrary? As I said in my other post, there could be an alternate meaning. Hebrews 9:27 is usually translated, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment". Maybe it just means that there is a mandatory review after each life, then a judgment where the person is to go next. They may go to Heaven, they may go to Hell, but maybe they are sent back to earth for another life.

No, I am not willing to play "Bible verse games" to justify what I want to believe. The purpose of Chapter 9 of Hebrews is to contrast the repeated sacrifices that the High Priest had to offer versus the one-time, perfect sacrifice of Christ. The statement in Hebrews 9:27, as is made clear by Hebrews 9:28, is to analogize Christ's one-time death and eventual return to humans' one-time death and judgment:

27 And as it is [analogy] appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So [analogy] Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.​

Hebrews 9:27-28 (NKJV). The analogy is a little difficult to follow, but whatever.

The bare words "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" are on their face flatly contrary to reincarnation. They cannot reasonably be twisted to say "Well, maybe what they mean is" what you are suggesting. What you are suggesting could certainly be true, but there is no suggestion of this in the Bible. The author of Hebrews would not have had this idea in mind; no Jew of that era (and Hebrews is a thoroughly Jewish document) would have had this idea in mind. The author of Hebrews would not have had reincarnation in mind in any way, shape or form.

You could well conclude on the basis of the evidence that reincarnation occurs in the manner you describe and then say "And I don't believe this is clearly contrary to anything in the Bible because, for example, I don't think Hebrews 9:27 has anything to do with reincarnation." But to say "And I think Hebrews 9:27 can reasonably be interpreted in this manner" goes too far.

 

[Free]

I have stated before that although I believe that Christ is necessary for salvation, (and the ones that believe automatically go to Heaven) I don't really believe that belief in Him is.

The NT states repeatedly that it is belief in Jesus--who he is and what he has done--that is necessary for salvation.

Luk 8:9 And when his disciples asked him what this parable meant,
Luk 8:10 he said, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that ‘seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.’
Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Joh 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Act 16:31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

(All ESV)

That is just a sampling of the number of Scriptures that clearly state belief in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Once you go to Heaven or Hell is that it? There are so many stories about people returning from both or either of those two places, and there are even stories about them being reborn as somebody (or something) else that sound really convincing. The only problem is that I don't think the Bible mentions anything about near death experiences or reincarnation to support these claims does it?

(1 Tim. 4:1-11) Study this Scripture HR and trust The Lord at His word. The above is nonsense.
We are in his Mercy and Grace...always.
Douglas summers

 

[Free]

No,.. I'm simply saying that I'm allowed to believe whatever I want.

I know, that was my point. Why be more concerned with being "allowed to believe whatever [you] want" than with believing what is true? I'll leave it at that, but it is quite concerning when there is significant biblical evidence against your position and yet you just want to believe whatever you want.

 

[KevinK]

The bare words "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" are on their face flatly contrary to reincarnation. They cannot reasonably be twisted to say "Well, maybe what they mean is" what you are suggesting. What you are suggesting could certainly be true, but there is no suggestion of this in the Bible. The author of Hebrews would not have had this idea in mind; no Jew of that era (and Hebrews is a thoroughly Jewish document) would have had this idea in mind. The author of Hebrews would not have had reincarnation in mind in any way, shape or form.

Looks like we disagree, and that's fine. Actually, not only do I think an alternate meaning is possible, I go so far as to think it was intentional. There's speculation that all Scriptural references to reincarnation were removed by the Nicean Council in 325 A.D. Hebrews 9:27 is a fairly clumsy sentence. Intentional ambiguity could explain why.

There are Christians that believe in reincarnation, or at least are open to the possibility.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Hmm very very interesting observation. Thank you for sharing it
Let me quote something similar, Christ's own words :
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John is the Elijah who was to come.’”
(Matthew 11:14)

I wonder was it all predestined and foreordained ..... Doesn't the word say We did not choose God , He chose us

John 15:16 ►

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

To more fully understand these statements it is absolutely 9mperative understand more about God than the Pretenders (most members of the Church Body) ever want to deal with. With this knowledge, not commonly taught from the pulpit, the Predestination become easily understood. The scriptures teach us that God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and that He is everywhere at every time at once.

Let's deal with that one, Omnipresence. It helps us to understand scriptures such as the somewhat metaphysical sounding passages such as Rev. 17:8 and Rev 13:8 in the scriptures.

It is important to get the basics down first and we need to pay attention to John 1:1-3. There we are simply informed of the origin of dirt, the planets, the stars, animals, plants, everything including that sweet girl you married because you could not live without her.

Those first 5 verses of john, when meditated upon are profound. Before we were, God was and this Time/Space Continuum was not! God, of necessity, existed elsewhere and before any of this existed, a thought, seldom connected to any other verse in the Word of God.

But in my studies, through the guidance of my LORD, I have learned to recognize that the scriptures, though the Bible has been renamed the Old Testament and the twenty-seven God given Life Application Commentaries, the scriptures are authored by a single author, Jesus and Jesus is the God of both Testaments. The forty men, credited by the world for authoring the books of the Bible are not! They are or were the scribes God used to pen the writing.

I pray I have not confused you but have blessed you.

 

[Free]

Looks like we disagree, and that's fine. Actually, not only do I think an alternate meaning is possible, I go so far as to think it was intentional. There's speculation that all Scriptural references to reincarnation were removed by the Nicean Council in 325 A.D. Hebrews 9:27 is a fairly clumsy sentence. Intentional ambiguity could explain why.

There are Christians that believe in reincarnation, or at least are open to the possibility.

The Christian faith is not built on speculation. Such speculation is because come people have a tendency towards believing in conspiracy theories. The very idea of reincarnation goes against the entirety of Scripture.

 

[Runner]

I know, that was my point. Why be more concerned with being "allowed to believe whatever [you] want" than with believing what is true? I'll leave it at that, but it is quite concerning when there is significant biblical evidence against your position and yet you just want to believe whatever you want.

It would be interesting to know how Jesus would have replied if, when he said some of the things you quoted from the Bible, one of the disciples had asked "But what about the Mayans, the Aztecs, the Siberian tribes, the Chinese, the Indians, the Aborigines, and millions and millions of other people who are now living? They are never even going to know you existed. Many of their descendants for many generations - hundreds and hundreds of years - will never even know you existed. How does that work?" I'm not suggesting I know the answer, but I am suggesting there is more mystery to what it means to "believe in Jesus" than is typically assumed on these forums.

If I can quote myself from another thread (and why not - I'm my favorite poster!), I thought this post - which, of course, got virtually no response - framed the issues pretty well. Someone was asking why some people believe in Jesus and others don't, "when we all stand on equal footing":​

To a large extent, we are the products of our genetics stretching back many generations. This is true not just in regard to physical health, but in regard to many personality traits and proclivities as well. We do not emerge from the womb as blank slates. Some of the research with long-separated twins proves this. Our free will is not nearly as free as we might like to think.

In addition, we are born with vastly different intelligence levels. We are born into vastly different family, cultural and economic circumstances. We have vastly different educational and employment opportunities. Some of us live to be 94, others 14. In my experience, we have vastly different capacities to believe - not just religious teachings, but almost anything that requires a leap of faith.

There is simply no way that a child born into an upper middle class, white, highly educated Omaha family with deep Southern Baptist roots and traditional Christian/American values "starts on even ground" with a child born into a destitute, uneducated family in New Delhi with deep Hindu roots and traditional Hindu/Indian values. The odds of the latter child ever hearing about Christ in a meaningful way or turning to Christ even if he does are minuscule in comparison to the odds of the former child doing so. Literally billions of people have no realistic chance of ever becoming Christians in the narrow way that evangelicals define the term.

I believe this undeniable fact about the real world is a major challenge to the evangelical mindset. Evangelical attempts to address this undeniable fact while preserving the tidy evangelical theology strike me as completely unconvincing.

I am unable myself to articulate a convincing theology that deals with the undeniable fact that we do not all start on ANYTHING LIKE the same ground IN ANY RESPECT, including the likelihood of becoming Christians. One is almost forced to fall back on such tired cliches as "It's just a mystery we can't understand" or "We just have to trust in God's goodness."

Along the lines of what Hermit is talking about, I am in the process of reading for at least the 20th time my favorite spiritual tome, Secret Splendor by Charles Earnest Essert (Philosophical Library 1973). Essert makes the point that Ultimate Truth exists independently of what we think or believe about it. We spend our lives debating ideas about Truth but never perceive Truth itself. Our reliance on our rationalistic, dualistic thinking, which is essential to everyday decision-making, actually gets in the way and prevents us from seeing Truth itself. Truth itself must be perceived intuitively. In Christian terms (Essert was not a Christian), we would say that Truth will reveal itself if we get out of the way and allow it to do so, if we will stop churning ideas in our minds and arguing over which of those conflicting ideas is Truth. To some extent the same teaching is found in the anonymous Christian classic The Cloud of Unknowing.

I tend to think we actually do stand on more or less equal ground in our ability to intuit Truth. Intuitively grasping Truth does not require any particular level of intelligence, education or anything else. It merely requires quieting what Buddhists call the monkey mind, viewing the world from a different, more mystical perspective and allowing the Truth to break through. Indeed, worldly wisdom and riches can be major obstacles to this, as is suggested in many Biblical passages such as the Sermon On the Mount and Matthew 18:2-4.

For the destitute Hindu in New Delhi, the Truth is unlikely to break through in terms of "Jesus," but it might well break through in terms of a realization that we live in a created reality, there is something fundamentally flawed with this reality and our individual selves, and we cannot overcome these flaws through our own efforts. Such realizations might come within the context of a Hindu, Buddhist or other non-Christian culture.

For these reasons, I tend to think - I certainly don't claim to know - that the conventional understandings of what is required to be "saved" and what Jesus meant by John 14:6 may be badly misguided.

 

[Runner]

The Christian faith is not built on speculation. Such speculation is because come people have a tendency towards believing in conspiracy theories. The very idea of reincarnation goes against the entirety of Scripture.

Like all religions, at its core it's built almost entirely on speculation. I happen to be a Christian and to think there is a solid foundation for my beliefs, but I cannot deny that the entire framework, beginning with the very existence of God, is highly speculative. That the Bible is "the word of God" in the sense used on these forums is highly speculative. You might believe, based on your understanding of the Bible, that the very idea of reincarnation goes against the entirety of Scripture. Others, based on their understanding, disagree (I disagree, for that matter). Others say, "I don't care whether it's consistent with Scripture or not. I don't define reality by Scripture. Reality determines my understanding of Scripture; Scripture does not determine my understanding of reality. The evidence for reincarnation is too compelling to ignore."

 

[WIP]

People, remember....this is the Theology Forum. Opinions don't count here. Statements made either for or against must be supportable by Scripture. It doesn't matter how many others believe the same way we do. It doesn't matter what we think. It doesn't matter what we want to believe. What matters is God's Word and the whole purpose is to gain understanding into what God says.

 

[Free]

Like all religions, at its core it's built almost entirely on speculation. I happen to be a Christian and to think there is a solid foundation for my beliefs, but I cannot deny that the entire framework, beginning with the very existence of God, is highly speculative. That the Bible is "the word of God" in the sense used on these forums is highly speculative.

It's one thing to be speculative based on no biblical evidence, such as with reincarnation, it is quite another to argue to the best explanation based on the evidence given, scientific, theological, or otherwise.

You might believe, based on your understanding of the Bible, that the very idea of reincarnation goes against the entirety of Scripture. Others, based on their understanding, disagree (I disagree, for that matter).

I'm curious, where in Scripture is the idea of reincarnation supported?

Others say, "I don't care whether it's consistent with Scripture or not. I don't define reality by Scripture. Reality determines my understanding of Scripture; Scripture does not determine my understanding of reality. The evidence for reincarnation is too compelling to ignore."

Are you suggesting that there is evidence for reincarnation? As for those who would let such "evidence" determine their understanding of Scripture, they are wrong for doing so. It is one thing to let experience inform one's theology where it doesn't contradict Scripture, but it is quite another to let one's experience determine an understanding of Scripture that is contrary to it.

 

[Runner]

It's one thing to be speculative based on no biblical evidence, such as with reincarnation, it is quite another to argue to the best explanation based on the evidence given, scientific, theological, or otherwise.


I'm curious, where in Scripture is the idea of reincarnation supported?


Are you suggesting that there is evidence for reincarnation? As for those who would let such "evidence" determine their understanding of Scripture, they are wrong for doing so. It is one thing to let experience inform one's theology where it doesn't contradict Scripture, but it is quite another to let one's experience determine an understanding of Scripture that is contrary to it.

No, I am not suggesting reincarnation is supported by Scripture. I don't believe reincarnation was in the mind of any contributor to the Bible. I don't believe the Bible deals at all with the question of "One life or many?"

Yes, there is a great deal of evidence suggesting reincarnation, the work of the late Ian Stevenson at the University of Virginia being a good place to start. If one dives into that evidence for 50+ years, as I have, one is at least left saying "Hmmm ..." If I were utterly convinced that reincarnation were a reality, I don't believe anything in the Bible would preclude reincarnation - and if it did, I for one would go with the evidence. As it is, I am simply open to the possibility; it doesn't affect how I live my life.

 

[jaybird]

As I said we are connected to the God who made the heavens.

but the G-D who made the heavens is not in the heavens or of the heavens?

Romans 8:26-27 niv
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.
John 14:20 Niv
Jesus=>On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

i have always been an advocate of being lead by the spirit

 

[jaybird]

Hmm very very interesting observation. Thank you for sharing it

it is one of many but IMO the most interesting, it pretty planly states what the disciples of Jesus believed

Let me quote something similar, Christ's own words :
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, John is the Elijah who was to come.’”
(Matthew 11:14)

I wonder was it all predestined and foreordained ..... Doesn't the word say We did not choose God , He chose us

John 15:16 ►
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

those are good passages. John and Elijah are two different people yet one spirit? Elijah is always spoken of as the greatest yet Jesus says John is the greatest, IMO they are both the greatest. then you throw in Elisha asking the Father for a double portion of Elijahs spirit? kinda strange.

 

[Randy]

but the G-D who made the heavens is not in the heavens or of the heavens?


i have always been an advocate of being lead by the spirit

Those who worship God must do so in Spirit and in truth. Those are the worshipers "God" seeks.
No God is Spirit and we are spirit in the tent of the body. Since Gods Spirit sent in Jesus' name dwells in the believer how do you state in any manner that connected to heavens has any importance? Or has any proof we are in need of a preexistence before life in a body?

 

[PeterJens]

It is an interesting idea, does scripture support salvation without belief?
Peter when he denied Jesus, Jesus prayed his faith would stand true.

John says this
18> Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
1 John 3:18

11> For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
12> and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thess 2:11-12

9> That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:9

30> He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31> They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
Acts 16:30-31

The above verses answer the question about salvation and belief. If you want to be saved you must
believe in Jesus. Part of this is the action of confession, along with love shown by actions.

Lack of belief is often demonstrated by a sinful lifestyle. John says simply if you love, you know God
and you will agree with the Word of God. Why would not believe in Jesus if you have love in your heart?

 

[jaybird]

Those who worship God must do so in Spirit and in truth. Those are the worshipers "God" seeks.
No God is Spirit and we are spirit in the tent of the body. Since Gods Spirit sent in Jesus' name dwells in the believer how do you state in any manner that connected to heavens has any importance? Or has any proof we are in need of a preexistence before life in a body?

its important to me because i dont want to be separated from the Heavens. that would mean im just a lump of useless physical matter like some nephilim hybrid, gives me a cold shiver.