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Agree with you 100% on this. It would be persecution if only churches were targeted and the mandate literally said only churches. When all establishments are the focus of the mandate, it is not persecution of the church.

Saying that it is persecution makes Christians sound like they think they are above the law at all times.

You and others seem to ignore that the law of man many times comes against God. It is those times, that the Christian must be against the law of man.

The early Christians were killed because the law declared them 'atheists'. They didn't recognize the gods of Rome. Should they have obeyed the law? This is where we are today.

Of course it is persecution. satan is using this to destroy the U.S. economically and religiously. he has his people in power to do it, and so he is doing it. Why? Because the U.S. was a Christian country whose economics reflected the blessing of God. It worked.

So, now we got lawmakers up there who are socialist's, communist's, and muslim. They are set for satan to use. But, it will result, not in God's breathing blessing upon us. But will result in God's blowing destruction upon us.

So, yes, there comes a time when the Christian says no. I will not follow your law. I will follow God.

Quantrill
 
You and others seem to ignore that the law of man many times comes against God. It is those times, that the Christian must be against the law of man.

I won't disagree with you that it does happen, but in this instance, it isn't the case.

Should they have obeyed the law? This is where we are today.

No and no we're not. That is hyperbole.

So, now we got lawmakers up there who are socialist's, communist's, and muslim.

I will disagree with you here as well except on the Muslim part and I have no issues with that as this country was founded on religious freedom, not freedom to for Christianity only. Also, I am for safety nets, one-payer healthcare, etc. If that makes me a socialist, so be it.
 
Not to mention it is an absolute INSULT to those who are actually and literally being killed for owning a bible.
We have been inconvenienced... we have not been persecuted ( at this time ).
I have made this point several times on social media. An issue that arises with Christians disobeying the authorities on these health mandates, is that it makes Christians look bad in the world’s eyes, the opposite of what the Bible says we are to do. This, in turn, will make the world angrier at us when things really matter, things which have begun to happen and will occur in increasing measure. In short, defying the authorities now has the potential to only increase actual persecution. Why should they listen to us then if we don’t listen to them now?
 
I certainly agree that context matters a great deal. As Greg Koukl says, context is king. The irony here is that the author has inserted his own context into Romans 13. There are several concerns but none of them are about "Judean nonbelievers’ and Gentile believers’ relationship". His concern for unsaved Jews was for their salvation, not their relationship to Gentile believers. The main theme of Romans is the gospel, as seen in the first few verses, for both salvation and its practical outworking in the Christian life. After giving the theology in the first 11 chapters, he then provides the practical application in the final ones. The Jewish and Gentile relationship that Paul is concerned about is of that between believers (chapter 14).

The church in Rome was likely mostly Gentile but also had Jewish believers. There is nothing at all in the context of the entire book of Romans to suggest that 13:1-7 is speaking of the rulers of the synagogues, and everything to suggest that he is indeed speaking of the Roman authorities. This is made all the more clear by the commands for general Christian conduct in chapter 12, which ends with not taking vengeance, doing good to one's enemy, and overcoming evil with good. To believe that Paul then suddenly switches to a discussion about obeying synagogue rulers does not make sense. Paul is continuing the same line of thought from the end of chapter 12, where it is the Roman authorities (and, by extension, all authorities, everywhere, in all times) who are God's chosen instrument to punish the evil doer. Chapter 14 then begins with discussion about passing judgement on what other believers eat and drink and what days they observe. This strongly suggests disagreements between Jewish and Gentile believers. Again, nothing to do with synagogues or Jewish rulers.

One glaring error by the author is this argument: “This Judean context makes perfect sense of verses 1-7 as one reads Romans. For example, Paul speaks of authority that exists from God (v.1) and is appointed by God (v. 2). This hardly sounds like a description of Caesar and his predatory legions.” Yet, Jesus says this to Pilate, a Roman governor:

Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?”

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.” (ESV)

See also Hab 1:6, which shows that God raises or puts in place even evil governments and rulers for his purposes, and Dan 2:20-21, where it is God who both removes and puts in place kings. That the author would make such a glaring mistake suggests that he is reading his own ideas into Rom 13:1-7.

That Paul is speaking of earthly authorities in Rom 13 is supported by his instruction to Titus, to “remind [the believers in Crete] to be submissive to rulers and authorities” (3:1). That is entirely consistent with his command to the church in Rome.

Additionally, we also need to consider what Peter wrote:

1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. (ESV)

There is absolutely no doubt that Peter is here telling believers to obey all earthly authorities. But what is even more significant is that this was during a time of persecution, which was rather one of the main reasons for the letter. This, too, is completely consistent with Paul’s commands to the church in Rome to obey the secular authorities.

What does all of this add up to? It means that all believers are to obey all earthly authorities as God-given, with the obvious exception that we do not do so if what they require would cause believers to sin.

There is more that can be said but, for the sake of brevity, that is sufficient enough to show that the author of that article is making up his own context. The stronger position is that Paul really is telling the believers in Rome to obey the Roman authorities because God has placed them there. That is a consistent message throughout the Bible.
I wonder if Martin Luther considered Romans 13 before the Diet of Worms ? I guess we all could be rubbing rosary beads .

After consideration this is one of the differences between you and me .

1776
 
I wonder if Martin Luther considered Romans 13 before the Diet of Worms ? I guess we all could be rubbing rosary beads .

After consideration this is one of the differences between you and me .

1776
What does Martin Luther and the Diet of Worms have to do with what I have stated about Romans 13?

And I don’t understand the 1776 reference.
 
I won't disagree with you that it does happen, but in this instance, it isn't the case.



No and no we're not. That is hyperbole.



I will disagree with you here as well except on the Muslim part and I have no issues with that as this country was founded on religious freedom, not freedom to for Christianity only. Also, I am for safety nets, one-payer healthcare, etc. If that makes me a socialist, so be it.

Just because Christians arn't targeted specifically in a said law, doesn't mean it doesn't apply. As I said before the laws of Rome applied to all. But there came a time when Christians disobeyed.

The fact that people are being threatened with job loss if they don't get vaccinated is not a hyperbole.

The less the U.S. becomes Christian, the more freedoms we had will deteriorate. The more the country will become third world. The more times the Christian will be forced to disobey laws and follow God. The more the country will become socialist, or communist.

Just because you like it, doesn't make it right or good.

Quantrill
 
Just because you don't like it, doesn't make it wrong or bad.

The changing of America from a Christian Western country to a third world country is wrong and bad. The result will be more freedoms lost that were obtained by former America. The result will be more times the Christians will be forced to choose between God and man's law.

Quantrill
 
The changing of America from a Christian Western country to a third world country is wrong and bad. The result will be more freedoms lost that were obtained by former America. The result will be more times the Christians will be forced to choose between God and man's law.

Quantrill

If you say so. I disagree with your premise.
 
Then I believe you are taking what Adoration said out of context as I do not believe that they are saying that by going to church they are behaving worse than the secular world.

Because the pastor and his congregation continued to gather for worship services, against the political advice of his government he was thrown in jail.

That is the context.

We don’t take medical advice from politicians pushing a socialist liberal agenda.
 
and this is why I left the forums the first time... Point in case... many Christians are acting NO differently than the secular world. I am grateful that CHRIST tells me that I no longer need to feel shame because I am washed in HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD. He died to save me from all my sins.


I agree. In my opinion when Christians turn against other Christians because they refuse to take an experimental vaccine, or turn against them because they want to gather together for worship services even though the government doesn’t want them too, they are acting just exactly like the world.




JLB
 
What does Martin Luther and the Diet of Worms have to do with what I have stated about Romans 13?
You should be able to make a connection there , keep chewing on it .

What it ultimately comes down to is this .

Artur Pawlowski has been entrusted by God with a flock to take care of . If God directed Artur to conduct regular services at his church . Then that is exactly what Artur should have done . And be ready for the consequences . And he was as we will see in this video .


And I don’t understand the 1776 reference.
In 1776 we were fighting for our freedom against the king . Canada's freedom was a much slower process .
 
You should be able to make a connection there , keep chewing on it .
I really don’t see a connection, that is why I’m asking.

Artur Pawlowski has been entrusted by God with a flock to take care of . If God directed Artur to conduct regular services at his church . Then that is exactly what Artur should have done . And be ready for the consequences . And he was as we will see in this video .
That all sounds good but, if in conducting his services he is disobeying the authorities on an issue that doesn’t require him to sin against God, then he is, in fact, disobeying God. That is the problem. In disobeying the authorities, Artur is disobeying God. So, it is exactly what he should not have done.
 
I agree. In my opinion when Christians turn against other Christians because they refuse to take an experimental vaccine, or turn against them because they want to gather together for worship services even though the government doesn’t want them too, they are acting just exactly like the world.




JLB
I agree with Adoration. The church services have violated health restrictions and the world has noticed. I can’t count the number of comments on social media regarding Artur and a couple of other pastors doing the same thing, and non-Christians are wondering why Christians aren’t showing the love to their neighbours that they’re supposed to be sharing.

I’ve seen Christians respond with vitriol, not unlike some comments on this forum. So, yes, Christians are acting just like the world, except that it’s worse because we know better. The world is watching and we are often not reflecting Christ to the world, so we shouldn’t be surprised when they reject him and us.
 
’ve seen Christians respond with vitriol, not unlike some comments on this forum. So, yes, Christians are acting just like the world, except that it’s worse because we know better. The world is watching and we are often not reflecting Christ to the world, so we shouldn’t be surprised when they reject him and us.
And my wife and I were attacked verbally because I was vaccinated. One even called with real concern that our daughters unborn child was at risk because I received the vaccine so neither of us should see our daughter, lest the child die because we were infected.
Ohhh, and the Facebook messages! Wow…. It would blow your mind.

Just like anywhere though, including this forum, how we respond to aggressive talk or behavior really can have an effect on the outcome of the relationship. And I can say that those in my circle no longer look down on me for getting vaccinated. They don’t agree, but I get the respect from them that I give them for their choices. I’ve even had one friend change his mind, and got vaccinated. This was one who wanted to argue that I was harming myself with the jab.

I often think about David and what he did with Bathsheba. It was horrible. We can focus on what others do wrong, or we can look at how they respond when they either get caught, or realize the wrong they did.

So in part, it’s not so much the sin Christians partake in, but whether they repent and make an effort to right their wrong.

.02
 
I really don’t see a connection, that is why I’m asking.


That all sounds good but, if in conducting his services he is disobeying the authorities on an issue that doesn’t require him to sin against God, then he is, in fact, disobeying God. That is the problem. In disobeying the authorities, Artur is disobeying God. So, it is exactly what he should not have done.

Am I 100% sure that Autur did the right thing by having normal church service ? No , and I probably will never know . Unless it is revealed to me .

Are you 100% believing what you wrote in the bold above ?

Martin Luther what cat he was ! 95 was it ?
 
And my wife and I were attacked verbally because I was vaccinated. One even called with real concern that our daughters unborn child was at risk because I received the vaccine so neither of us should see our daughter, lest the child die because we were infected.
Ohhh, and the Facebook messages! Wow…. It would blow your mind.
Wow , that is terrible :sad . That pains my heart to hear that . This pandemic is making people crazy .
 
Am I 100% sure that Autur did the right thing by having normal church service ? No , and I probably will never know . Unless it is revealed to me .

Are you 100% believing what you wrote in the bold above ?

Martin Luther what cat he was ! 95 was it ?
Does it need to be revealed to you? Either what Artur did was in accordance with God’s commands in Scripture or it was not. And, yes, I do believe what I have written in bold.

Comparing what Luther did to what Artur did is a case of comparing apples and oranges. What the Catholic Church was doing was sinful and it needed to be reformed. That was an ecclesiastical issue. One cannot compare that with a public health crisis and following government health orders intended to bring an end to that crisis.
 
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