Bible Study "Pastor" Office or Gift?

[Nathan]

I really got to throw this out there, while we are on the subject.

Why is there a whole field of education devoted for one specific gift?

And if it is a gift, why do we need to be trained in it? And if we do need to be trained in it, why is there not training for each of the other gifts?

These are serious questions, I am NOT being sarcastic.

 

[Nathan]

I can agree there are cases where it is about power and control. I have a very good friend that was raised in a controlling, authoritarian home so all the churches she was drawn to happened to be ones with controlling pastors and she even ended up in one church that I would call a cult not because of the teachings. The teachings were Biblical but the pastor took literal control over everyone`s lives and reduced adult men and women to coloring in coloring books as their only form of entertainment. So I know from seeing the various churches she has been in, that there are a number of control freak pastors out there unfortunately.

However, I think more than it being an issue of power and control when the pastor wears all the hats, I think it is more an issue of salary and custom. If a pastor does not take on all these gifts plus being a business administrator to run a church, then no one would feel justified to providing him a salary because all the work would be evenly distributed throughout the body. Everyone would be contributing therefore it would be unfair for one person to be singled out and paid, but the way tradition and seminaries set it up, the pastor does all the work, therefore he gets the salary which is fair since he is doing the work. But of course one has to consider is this really they way God designed the church to be.

Now your asking the questions that are in my mind.

Your right. He does get paid for 'doing' all of these things. But is that actually helping grow the body, or stunting its growth?

And then it goes deeper, because if the pastor is truly fulfilling the gift of pastoring, then would that not dictate that his desire is for even the lame and seemingly out of place lamb to fulfill its role in the body?

But if the 'pastor' feels obligated to 'pick up the slack', is he really being a pastor? Is he leading by example?

I just have to wonder if people who are in cults ever read 1 Peter 5. That right there would just about have to make even the simple minded person think twice about a domineering "pastor".

 

[pjt]

Ah, the million dollar question.

I would explain it in 21st century language like this;

The Pastor(shepherd) is a very specific gifting. There are two distinct faucets of manifestation of the gift. A corporate showing in the "flock", and an individual showing in the "sheep". But both are characterized by the intense desire for the wellbeing of each and everyone.

It shows itself in the life of each and EVERY individual person that he has been given to watch over. The Pastor knows each and everyone of his flock personally. When even one single individual seems to be 'falling' behind, he personally makes sure they are brought back to the group. Each one is cared for exactly like the rest, except in the arena of the individual personality.

Corporately, in the flock, it shows itself by making sure adequate nourishment is available to all. He looks out for the safety of the group. Protection is a priority for the pastor, understanding that sometimes the sheep will hurt each other, but more importantly looking out for the dangers that lurk beyond the flocks understanding.

The gift of Shepherding is distinguished from the gift of teaching in that the gift of teaching is about right and wrong above all else. But at the same time the gift of Pastor is inseparable from that of a teacher in the way that he leads the flock purely by example, neglecting his needs in care for theirs. The gift of teaching focuses on the instruction, the gift of pastor focuses on the one's being instructed.

I get what you mean. There are some pastors that deliver great sermons but they are not good with people. Put them in the pulpit and they can move hearts and inspire minds with their words, but put them on the floor with individuals and they don`t connect well.

On the other hand there are pastors that don`t have such great sermons but they just love the people and watch over them, care for them, know what is going on in their lives and their families lives and are there for them when needed. These are the pastors you pick up the phone and call immediately when a loved one goes in the hospital or a family crisis comes. The other pastors, you generally don`t call. In fact, that pastor probably has not even given his home telephone number. You don`t know how to get in touch with him outside business hours. One pastor is a loving shepherd and another a great preacher.

 

[pjt]

Now your asking the questions that are in my mind.

Your right. He does get paid for 'doing' all of these things. But is that actually helping grow the body, or stunting its growth?

And then it goes deeper, because if the pastor is truly fulfilling the gift of pastoring, then would that not dictate that his desire is for even the lame and seemingly out of place lamb to fulfill its role in the body?

But if the 'pastor' feels obligated to 'pick up the slack', is he really being a pastor? Is he leading by example?

I just have to wonder if people who are in cults ever read 1 Peter 5. That right there would just about have to make even the simple minded person think twice about a domineering "pastor".

I find this discussion interesting because I`ve been a Christian for 32 years but in the past year I`ve really been convicted and have been relooking at Scriptures that describe the Church. The more I look at the Scriptures and look at the church, I see two completely different pictures. I am coming to a place where I don`t reject the church, but I seriously question if it is the way God designed it to be. And I wonder how as a community of Believers we can laso ourselves and make ourselves like the church God described. However, the more I think of it, the more complicated it seems. I mean the church as it is now, does 1 of 2 things.
1) it allows Believers to be comfortably lazy. We just pay a little money and let the pastor do all the work for us. And if someone steps forward with a gift (other than singing in the choir, making coffee, or leading a Sunday School class) they are discouraged from using it. And in addition, gifts within the Body are basically only to be used on Sunday.
Whereas, what I see with the NT church, the church was a daily lifestyle where the gifts were used and excercised within the community every day.

2) The Purpose Driven Church which is now popular takes the responsibilities of the pastor and throws them back on the congregation but in a rather immature way that does not necessarily produce growth but allows the pastor to sit back and do little, while giving he congregation a lot of busy work. And it seems like the Purpose Driven Church has a focus on meeting the needs of nonBelievers and people in the community or rather than the Body of Christ.
Whereas, what I read in the Scriptures, the Church is taking care of the Body and when we take care of the Body, this is a powerful light, witness, and testimony to the world.

 

[Sam21]

I have found that most Pastors and bible teachers are quite adapt at switching from being truthful with the scriptures to denial and manipulation and then back to truthful. Since being truthful requires the complete acceptance of what is literal and in context, and denial and manipulation requires the rejection of what is literal and in context,therefore it has to be that those who jump from truthful to denial and back to truthful...HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Sorry folks, but we live in an age when most Pastors and bible teachers practice truth mixed with lies about the bible and they know that they are doing it...it is the accepted practice of our time.

 

[Jake]

I have found that most Pastors and bible teachers are quite adapt at switching from being truthful with the scriptures to denial and manipulation and then back to truthful. Since being truthful requires the complete acceptance of what is literal and in context, and denial and manipulation requires the rejection of what is literal and in context,therefore it has to be that those who jump from truthful to denial and back to truthful...HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Sorry folks, but we live in an age when most Pastors and bible teachers practice truth mixed with lies about the bible and they know that they are doing it...it is the accepted practice of our time.

Yes, so why do they do it? Not being sarcastic, just wondering what happened? What happened to teaching truth? (all the time ha)

 

[whitney]

Yes, so why do they do it? Not being sarcastic, just wondering what happened? What happened to teaching truth? (all the time ha)

I've wondered about this, too, and I think it's simply they are not really called and they are either called into one and get all the other responsibilities, which they never were called. Yet, I do wonder why they continue in their positions when they are not called, God blesses our gifts, but when we are pretending we have the gift, then why would He bless us for pretending?

There are way too many pastors, not enough teachers, evangilists, apostles and prophets. If only we would conduct the church as God enstated, with the 5 fold ministry of people truly called into their offices, then it would be blessed and we would see the witness of the Church in a whole new light.

 

[Sam21]

The "why" Pastors and bible teachers teach the truth and lies mixed together is probably because they have been taught to do this. A bigger "why" is why any christian who has given up his life to serve the Lord would then allow himself to reject God and follow the designs of some particular demonination or person. The practice of the day is to teach the truth of scripture until scripture takes an unwanted turn and then to manipulate and deny and then go on and teach the true scripture. It is obvious that Pastors and bible teachers are not afraid to do this, they have no fear of God for doing this.

 

[whitney]

The "why" Pastors and bible teachers teach the truth and lies mixed together is probably because they have been taught to do this. A bigger "why" is why any christian who has given up his life to serve the Lord would then allow himself to reject God and follow the designs of some particular demonination or person. The practice of the day is to teach the truth of scripture until scripture takes an unwanted turn and then to manipulate and deny and then go on and teach the true scripture. It is obvious that Pastors and bible teachers are not afraid to do this, they have no fear of God for doing this.

I agree Sam21. The particular seminaries do teach their denomination ways and not every denomination can be correct. When the going gets tough, just change scripture.

 

[Nathan]

I find this discussion interesting because I`ve been a Christian for 32 years but in the past year I`ve really been convicted and have been relooking at Scriptures that describe the Church. The more I look at the Scriptures and look at the church, I see two completely different pictures. I am coming to a place where I don`t reject the church, but I seriously question if it is the way God designed it to be. And I wonder how as a community of Believers we can laso ourselves and make ourselves like the church God described. However, the more I think of it, the more complicated it seems. I mean the church as it is now, does 1 of 2 things.
1) it allows Believers to be comfortably lazy. We just pay a little money and let the pastor do all the work for us. And if someone steps forward with a gift (other than singing in the choir, making coffee, or leading a Sunday School class) they are discouraged from using it. And in addition, gifts within the Body are basically only to be used on Sunday.
Whereas, what I see with the NT church, the church was a daily lifestyle where the gifts were used and excercised within the community every day.

2) The Purpose Driven Church which is now popular takes the responsibilities of the pastor and throws them back on the congregation but in a rather immature way that does not necessarily produce growth but allows the pastor to sit back and do little, while giving he congregation a lot of busy work. And it seems like the Purpose Driven Church has a focus on meeting the needs of nonBelievers and people in the community or rather than the Body of Christ.
Whereas, what I read in the Scriptures, the Church is taking care of the Body and when we take care of the Body, this is a powerful light, witness, and testimony to the world.

Well at the present time I am only 32 years old myself. But that is my full age.

I have thought about this for a while now. I like to think I am very slow to confrontation, but I like to ask questions. Sometimes those questions produce confrontations which I then will back away from if I am not being led to take a stand on something. I do not think that "we" can do anything beside fall back under the Lordship of the Lord Himself. There is no 'movement' or 'emergence' or 'program' or 'way' to do it other than a total dependence upon Christ to be the proper head He should be.

Sadly, the modern 'position' of pastor has taken that place. Purpose or not, I am not going to judge. But I think that the main question I pose will tell a lot of a persons heart.

This is kind of why I wanted to start this discussion in this forum. I wanted to deduct Biblically if the Pastor/Shepherd is a gift or a designated office.

I really would not like to let this go into a bashing of Pastors all together. And it has not yet thankfully.

But surely there is someone who can give us some thoughts on where the idea that it is an office to be filled rather than a gift to be used is found in the NT?

 

[Nathan]

I have found that most Pastors and bible teachers are quite adapt at switching from being truthful with the scriptures to denial and manipulation and then back to truthful. Since being truthful requires the complete acceptance of what is literal and in context, and denial and manipulation requires the rejection of what is literal and in context,therefore it has to be that those who jump from truthful to denial and back to truthful...HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Sorry folks, but we live in an age when most Pastors and bible teachers practice truth mixed with lies about the bible and they know that they are doing it...it is the accepted practice of our time.

I think it might be a little self preservation. Think about it. If you had grown up in a denomination that held onto the position of pastor as something of great importance then you are automatically going to give it great importance. Now suppose you were feeling the gift of it being given you, and the only logical thing to do is go to your pastor. He in turn points you in the direction to go, which is normally seminary.

You spend 4 or so years with guys of 'like mind' and feel a real bond. Then getting out of school you go on to do what your heart is led to do, except all of a sudden you sense that something is not right. You want to be the pastor God wants you to be, but there are all these other people who want you to be something else. Your heart longs to help these people, so your caught in the trap.

Go to far this way and you can see them running like lost sheep over the cliff edge, go to far the other way and you can see them running the other way. So you more or less fool yourself into thinking you are doing the right thing for the ones you feel are entrusted for you.

I really hold nothing against the pastor today. yes. there are some who do these things purposefully. But the majority I see are simply trying their best but because the body is so cripple they are simply not receiving the nourishment that even they need. The pastor by nature does everything he can to keep the sheep together.

Remember the warning of false shepherds?

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

When you see a dividing among the sheep who simply need someone to look after them while they grow, then you are seeing true false shepherds. They are the ones who seek to 'divide' and to 'take away'. True shepherds want to bring healing.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I have found that most Pastors and bible teachers are quite adapt at switching from being truthful with the scriptures to denial and manipulation... we live in an age when most Pastors and bible teachers practice truth mixed with lies about the bible and they know that they are doing it...it is the accepted practice of our time.

I thought I was the most cynical person here.

I was wrong, and I hope YOU are wrong.

 

[whitney]

Well at the present time I am only 32 years old myself. But that is my full age.

I have thought about this for a while now. I like to think I am very slow to confrontation, but I like to ask questions. Sometimes those questions produce confrontations which I then will back away from if I am not being led to take a stand on something. I do not think that "we" can do anything beside fall back under the Lordship of the Lord Himself. There is no 'movement' or 'emergence' or 'program' or 'way' to do it other than a total dependence upon Christ to be the proper head He should be.

Sadly, the modern 'position' of pastor has taken that place. Purpose or not, I am not going to judge. But I think that the main question I pose will tell a lot of a persons heart.

This is kind of why I wanted to start this discussion in this forum. I wanted to deduct Biblically if the Pastor/Shepherd is a gift or a designated office.

I really would not like to let this go into a bashing of Pastors all together. And it has not yet thankfully.

But surely there is someone who can give us some thoughts on where the idea that it is an office to be filled rather than a gift to be used is found in the NT?

I think it was Cornelius who talked about this in one of his posts and if I am wrong, I hope someone will correct me.

There is an office of Pastor and he would be the shepherd of the flock, but there is also a gifting as in perhaps a group leader would have the gift of pastoring that group, I think there is potential that anyone of us could have the gift of pastoring but not hold the office of Pastor. There is an office, just as there is for the others, apostles, prophets, teacher and evangilist, the other would be pastor.

 

[Nathan]

I've wondered about this, too, and I think it's simply they are not really called and they are either called into one and get all the other responsibilities, which they never were called. Yet, I do wonder why they continue in their positions when they are not called, God blesses our gifts, but when we are pretending we have the gift, then why would He bless us for pretending?

There are way too many pastors, not enough teachers, evangilists, apostles and prophets. If only we would conduct the church as God enstated, with the 5 fold ministry of people truly called into their offices, then it would be blessed and we would see the witness of the Church in a whole new light.

I agree, but I have to disagree on the 5 fold ministry. There are many more gifts than that. But this is where I understand is the only place in the NT where the "offices" are classified as such and not gifts. Ephesians 4. But it really doesn't make much sense when right in their context they are described as gifts. So what makes them and office?

But yes, I agree, when people simply do what they are gifted to do and let the rest to another, then it would be nice. But something tells me that this has been going on since NT times. lol 1Corinthians 12 seems to make it look like that. But here we see an actual numbered order of how the gifts are given. Interestingly enough, the gift of pastor is not mentioned.

1Cr 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

This might be where we have gotten the idea that the pastors main function is teaching. But we would have to then completely take all the rest of the NT and chop it up and piece it in to make that so. It gets complicated if you let it, but in reality this is all pretty simple to me it seems. Its the fact it has gone so far and so long in the pattern it is right now is the problem.

 

[Nathan]

I think it was Cornelius who talked about this in one of his posts and if I am wrong, I hope someone will correct me.

There is an office of Pastor and he would be the shepherd of the flock, but there is also a gifting as in perhaps a group leader would have the gift of pastoring that group, I think there is potential that anyone of us could have the gift of pastoring but not hold the office of Pastor. There is an office, just as there is for the others, apostles, prophets, teacher and evangilist, the other would be pastor.

yes. This is exactly how I have heard it put. Except the more I study the less biblical evidence I can find for this. The very passage itself lists those "offices" as gifts. They are never listed as "offices" or anything like that. We have put that term on them ourselves. But I am willing to be corrected if someone can provide sound biblical proof otherwise.

 

[Nathan]

maybe the question needs to be asked:

What is the difference between "office" and "gift"?​

 

[whitney]

I agree, but I have to disagree on the 5 fold ministry. There are many more gifts than that. But this is where I understand is the only place in the NT where the "offices" are classified as such and not gifts. Ephesians 4. But it really doesn't make much sense when right in their context they are described as gifts. So what makes them and office?

But yes, I agree, when people simply do what they are gifted to do and let the rest to another, then it would be nice. But something tells me that this has been going on since NT times. lol 1Corinthians 12 seems to make it look like that. But here we see an actual numbered order of how the gifts are given. Interestingly enough, the gift of pastor is not mentioned.

1Cr 12:28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

This might be where we have gotten the idea that the pastors main function is teaching. But we would have to then completely take all the rest of the NT and chop it up and piece it in to make that so. It gets complicated if you let it, but in reality this is all pretty simple to me it seems. Its the fact it has gone so far and so long in the pattern it is right now is the problem.

I do see what you are saying and maybe the word "office" is because we need a name for them and that would be tradition again. When the Bible does call them gifts and not an office or even a position. Can we say they are "operating" in the gifts?
If we take all the requirements of an apostle, which there are several, and He is called by God, then, we as humans, call that the "office of apostleship". It includes having the gift, but much more and it is not talking about someone who simply has the gift of "being sent out".
So the requirements of the 5 fold ministry are much greater than simply having the gifts. I could have the gift of pastoring or evangilizing but never have ALL the requirements to be a Pastor or an Evangilist.

 

[whitney]

maybe the question needs to be asked:

What is the difference between "office" and "gift"?​

The requirements. In Ephesians it talks about the "office", as in we need those people to build up the saints to perfection. These "offices" are the balance God gave the Church. It's not working well if there is simply a Pastor who may or may not have the gift of teaching or vice versa, and they are lacking in the other areas, so the Church is not functioning correctly.

The gifts are discussed in Corinthians, the requirements are not so stringent as what is talked about in Ephesians, but they are both gifts. Anyone can have any one or more of these gifts and they are to make up the Body in order for the Body to care for one another.

That's how I see it.

 

[pjt]

I've wondered about this, too, and I think it's simply they are not really called and they are either called into one and get all the other responsibilities, which they never were called. Yet, I do wonder why they continue in their positions when they are not called, God blesses our gifts, but when we are pretending we have the gift, then why would He bless us for pretending?

There are way too many pastors, not enough teachers, evangilists, apostles and prophets. If only we would conduct the church as God enstated, with the 5 fold ministry of people truly called into their offices, then it would be blessed and we would see the witness of the Church in a whole new light.

"they are either called into one and get all the other responsibilities" I think this is the case.

"Yet, I do wonder why they continue in their positions when they are not called, God blesses our gifts, but when we are pretending we have the gift, then why would He bless us for pretending"
I think it is because they feel they are expected to fill all these roles and those who have a seminary education are trained to believe all these roles are their duties. I don`t really see the majority purposely lying or sinisterly doing it just for power or deception. I mean this is the way the church/pastors have been expected to operate for generations so no one really questions is this the right way or not. But I think this with generation we are seeing people start to question which is why home churches have become popular but I`m not convinced these are the answer if they just become less formal versions of the established church.

 

[Cornelius]

I think one thing that is preventing us from seeing the whole picture is that we are still thinking in terms of denominations as "churches"

When we look at the five fold ministry , they are not denomination-bound. They are given to the church as a whole. We have changed the way church is. In the time of the first apostles, church simply included all who belonged to Christ. And the word "churches" was used to describe the gatherings in different places. The church in Ephesus or the the church in Jerusalem. But they all believed the same things. They were one.

The five fold ministry were not designated to a particular place. They did not pay a pastor to shepherd them and the prophets did not prophecy of one denomination only , because denominations did not exist. They traveled between the churches , they were in essence one flock. (as indeed we should be)

Now that we have changed it, we pay a consequence.We have taken away God's chosen method to bring us to maturity. The consequence is immaturity as we can see all around us. Christians falling around in the dark, believing strange doctrines, not believing the basics truths anymore, not understanding the foundational teachings and divisions (denominations) have sprung up to "celebrate" our discord. We are not one as Jesus prayed we must be. We are separate.

We only use the term "pastor" these days to describe a person who resemble that which we imagine he should be. Most denominations call somebody "Pastor" as a title. The boss, the leader. We have chosen him and most of them have chosen themselves too. Most place themselves into this career.

We cannot speak about pastors, if we exclude the rest , the apostle, the prophet, the teacher and the evangelist. They all together were given to the original church for one purpose : for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;

See? Without them we stay children, we are tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine. By whom ? By the sleight of MEN.....in craftiness, after the wiles of error. Where do these men come from that take us into error? They come from themselves and were not called of God.

Its called the Nicolaitan error Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. It means "ruling over the laity" People usurping authority over God's people. Not being called but still wanting to rule over the flock. We suffer from that today.