Paul and James: Do they really disagree?

[handy]

This is a subject that is as old as the hills and still never seems to be resolved: The round and round wrangling of justification via faith alone or faith and works.

The two texts that seem to be at the heart of this debate are:

Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be accountable to God: because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for the through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. (Romans 3:19-20)

And

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone....For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (James 2:24,26)

I don't think that James and Paul are contradicting each other here at all. I see the two as speaking of two totally different types of "works". The "works" of the Law, which never once justified anyone in the history of mankind, but rather served to condemn, and the "works" that we were created to do in the first place, the "works" of stepping out in our faith, acting in love, giving to others, obeying God (not the Law, but the Spirit). We need never concern ourselves with the works of the Law. However, if we are not concerned with the works of the Spirit, those works that are brought forth by the grace of God within us, then our faith is described as "dead".

 

[jasoncran]

No, they dont disagree. Paul is saying the works without the repentance at the cross wont earn salvation, and james says when one has been forgiven of one's sins there will be works that are evident such repentance at the cross that Paul preaches. Both are looking at the same coin, but Paul is seeing the head and James is looking at the tail.

It really is that simple.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

I don't think that James and Paul are contradicting each other here at all. I see the two as speaking of two totally different types of "works". The "works" of the Law, which never once justified anyone in the history of mankind, but rather served to condemn, and the "works" that we were created to do in the first place, the "works" of stepping out in our faith, acting in love, giving to others, obeying God (not the Law, but the Spirit). We need never concern ourselves with the works of the Law. However, if we are not concerned with the works of the Spirit, those works that are brought forth by the grace of God within us, then our faith is described as "dead".

amen and exactly true- there are as far as i have found three kinds of " works" in the nt. 1_works of the law by which no man will be justified 2_ works of the flesh, fornications idolatry uncleaness etc... 3_works of faith that were created IN christ Jesus before the foundation of the earth that we should walk in them, these kind are ordained of God and they PERFECT our faith. amen

 

[Cornelius]

I don't think that James and Paul are contradicting each other here at all. I see the two as speaking of two totally different types of "works". The "works" of the Law, which never once justified anyone in the history of mankind, but rather served to condemn, and the "works" that we were created to do in the first place, the "works" of stepping out in our faith, acting in love, giving to others, obeying God (not the Law, but the Spirit). We need never concern ourselves with the works of the Law. However, if we are not concerned with the works of the Spirit, those works that are brought forth by the grace of God within us, then our faith is described as "dead".

amen and exactly true- there are as far as i have found three kinds of " works" in the nt. 1_works of the law by which no man will be justified 2_ works of the flesh, fornications idolatry uncleaness etc... 3_works of faith that were created IN christ Jesus before the foundation of the earth that we should walk in them, these kind are ordained of God and they PERFECT our faith. amen

Here is another work

Jhn 6:28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?

Although I pretty much understand this to be the same as "works of faith" ? Do you agree ?

C

 

[handy]

Here is another work

Jhn 6:28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?

Although I pretty much understand this to be the same as "works of faith" ? Do you agree ?

C

Since the answer to the question was "believe in Him who He has sent", I'd call that an unqualified YES! :yes

 

[Solo]

Apart from the Faith that brings one into the kingdom of God as His child, a new creature born of God; there are no good works. Until one is born of the Spirit, one is only in the flesh, and the flesh is sold under sin. When one is born of the Spirit, one is a new creature who delights in the law of God; and this new creature cannot sin (Romans 7:1 John 3:9).

10 As it is written , There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth , there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way , they are together become unprofitable ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one . Romans 3:10-12

They are all gone aside , they are all together become filthy : there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Psalm 14:3

Every one of them is gone back : they are altogether become filthy ; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Psalm 53:3

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I . 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do . 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin , because he is born of God. 1 John 3:9

 

[Cornelius]

Apart from the Faith that brings one into the kingdom of God as His child, a new creature born of God; there are no good works. Until one is born of the Spirit, one is only in the flesh, and the flesh is sold under sin. When one is born of the Spirit, one is a new creature who delights in the law of God; and this new creature cannot sin (Romans 7:1 John 3:9).

I take it that you are talking about the "works" that Paul talks about. And then we will all agree with you.


You are obviously not talking about the works that James speak of here.

 

[Geo]

Cornelius, it IS confusing when 2 different people use the same word 'work', and they are now here classified as "James works" and "Paul's works". Is there maybe another way to title them? Just to make it a bit easier to concentrate.

Just tried to find the last few mentioned "works" in the NT, and the very last time it appears is Revelation 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So when all is said and done the final judgment is based on "according to their works". These works would then be of what kind?

 

[francisdesales]

Here is another work

Jhn 6:28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?

Although I pretty much understand this to be the same as "works of faith" ? Do you agree ?

C

Since the answer to the question was "believe in Him who He has sent", I'd call that an unqualified YES! :yes

LOL!

Nice picture for your avatar. congrats...

 

[francisdesales]

Apart from the Faith that brings one into the kingdom of God as His child, a new creature born of God; there are no good works. Until one is born of the Spirit, one is only in the flesh, and the flesh is sold under sin. When one is born of the Spirit, one is a new creature who delights in the law of God; and this new creature cannot sin (Romans 7:1 John 3:9).

I take it that you are talking about the "works" that Paul talks about. And then we will all agree with you.


You are obviously not talking about the works that James speak of here.

Agreed. James is presuming that good works would go along with one's faith, not that a man's work was earning their way into heaven, which was Paul's point in his polemics against the Judaizers who insisted on keeping all points of the Law. Keeping the Law implied that one had to do certain things to achieve heaven, things that did not require faith. Paul makes it clear salvation is by grace, not a payment made to man. Thus, the reader of the Bible needs to be aware of this distinction and consider the context.

Revelation is speaking about what we do, good or evil, not about what we did to earn salvation.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

Good works resulting from faith is one kind of work. Agreed

Then we come to the other "work" that results from faith. Its the action that we do , when we believe something to be so. Its action that follows, when we believe something that God says. Like GodspromisesRyes wrote in another post : Abraham's "work" or "action" was to pack up and move , because God promised him a land of his own. He could not see it, but still he moved. THAT was the work that Abraham had to add to perfect his faith. No moving, meant he did not have faith Jam 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works (action) is dead.

Its this kind of work or action, that is a result of faith, that brings righteousness to the believer. It is so, because such an action is indeed difficult for us as humans to do. To do something , even if we cannot first see it with our natural eyes. To act only on a promise ! That is what James teaches here: Jam 2:24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

 

[Solo]

Apart from the Faith that brings one into the kingdom of God as His child, a new creature born of God; there are no good works. Until one is born of the Spirit, one is only in the flesh, and the flesh is sold under sin. When one is born of the Spirit, one is a new creature who delights in the law of God; and this new creature cannot sin (Romans 7:1 John 3:9).

I take it that you are talking about the "works" that Paul talks about. And then we will all agree with you.


You are obviously not talking about the works that James speak of here.

Works is Works and there is not one single work that one can do to be saved from their sins. Jesus did the only Work that saves us. The works that believers do after they are saved are the works that exhibit the existence of the new creature born of God.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

examples :D

Works of Faith-Hbr 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. BY FAITH noah PREPARED AN ARK+works of faith
Hbr 11:8 ¶ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. BY FAITH abraham OBEYED AND WENT OUT+works of faith

Works of flesh-Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Works of the law-Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.


The first kind-works of faith are also works of God and this verse goes with them-
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[DarcyLu]

if the apostles and other authors of the Word did not do their "works" we wouldn't have anything to argue about.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

if the apostles and other authors of the Word did not do their "works" we wouldn't have anything to argue about.

:amen

 

[sheepdog]

What do we have faith in as Christians?
1. Work of Jesus being sufficient to save and cleans us from all unrigheousness in Gods sight.
2.Word of God having the power to transform.
3. The power and willingness of the Holy Spirit to teach, correct and direct us.
A true faith is one which changes us in the spirit and demonstates itself in a change of behavior in the flesh. Perhaps some confuse believing there is a God with completely trusting Him with our life. I feel Paul and James were both speaking under the inspiration of the Spirit and if there is confusion it is on our interpretaion and not in the Word. It is impossible for God to lie or be of double mind. They are both saying the same thing. As one writer said the same coin but looking at different sides of it.

 

[Drew]

I don't think that James and Paul are contradicting each other here at all. I see the two as speaking of two totally different types of "works". The "works" of the Law, which never once justified anyone in the history of mankind, but rather served to condemn, and the "works" that we were created to do in the first place, the "works" of stepping out in our faith, acting in love, giving to others, obeying God (not the Law, but the Spirit). We need never concern ourselves with the works of the Law. However, if we are not concerned with the works of the Spirit, those works that are brought forth by the grace of God within us, then our faith is described as "dead".

Well stated. I believe you have correctly expressed the heart of the issue. The "works of the Law" are a reference to the Law of Moses, not to the more general category of "good works". Paul sees many Jews as seeking to justified by the works of the Law of Moses inasmuch as those Jews saw the Law of Moses as an ethnic marker which limited salvation to the Jew and the Jew only.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

here is another cool thing about this issue that shows us something deep and awesome!
2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jam 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jam 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

They are saying the exact same thing!! OUR vail has been taken away in Christ and WE see the GLORY OF THE LORD in the glass(mirror)and we are changed into that image- Notice paul said " where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty- and James says whoso looks into the perfect law of liberty!"

One group sees THEMSELVES in the mirror and they do not obey what they hear and the word is veiled to them. The other sees JESUS and LIBERTY in the mirrow and are not veiled and they WALK in the word they hear :amen

 

[Joe67]

"Destruction", is the quality that is common to the work of Abraham, Elijah, and Rahab that James testified as the bringing of faith to maturity. James 2:22.

These are not works that family, religion or nation could appreciate. These "works" would not have been praised by any of these 3 groups, of which, we all live under one or more of these groups.

The new birth (faith) is not of: ( John 1:13 KJV ).

"Blood", which is the biological/nuclear family.
"The will of the flesh," which is the doing of good, as worship, to the glory of God, the Creator.
"The will of man," which is our social contract of being our neighbor's keeper.

Joe

 

[handy]

if the apostles and other authors of the Word did not do their "works" we wouldn't have anything to argue about.

:amen

Bingo!

Great texts, GodpromisesRyes!
Being a doer of the word isn't the same thing as trying to earn one's way into heaven. We cannot earn our way into heaven. Period. I've yet to see anyone of Christian thought who thinks we can. But, being a doer of the word means that we are walking in that "law of liberty" (ie the Spirit). This is opposed to walking in the Law of sin and death (the old Mosaic law). Whereas I see plenty of references telling us that we are not to try to justify ourselves by walking in the Law of sin and death, I see no reference, not a one, that tells us that we are not to walk in the law of liberty and that law of liberty means doing the work that God prepared for us in Christ to do.

If we are not walking in the law of liberty and doing the works that God has prepared for us, then we are not walking in the Spirit and if we are not walking in the Spirit then we are not born-again.

LOL!

Nice picture for your avatar. congrats...

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