Paul and Women

[Stan1953]

Some men and pastors think the verse about the vail is talking about wearing her hair long. It's not.
A vail, is a vail. And we all know what eastern women wear for vails.
You can't just "come up with something".
Paul was dealing with people who were coming out of pagan religions. Paul was not a legalistic, he had logical reasons for the things he said. Paul did not look down on woman, for his day he was amazingly modern in his views of woman, especially seeing woman weren't allowed to do anything in the synagogues that he came from.
So without understanding the clause about the angels, I personally don't think we can get to the bottom of it.

Actually what Paul says in v15 is that a woman's long hair is given to her as a covering.
It also seems that Paul is trying to actually dismiss this as an issue if your read v16.
Here's a couple of articles about the phrase in v10;
http://www.bible-researcher.com/angels.html
http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.c...-because-of-the-angels-refer-to-in-1-cor-1110

Oh BTW Deb, it's veil.

 

[jasonc]

Because in the Church is where Christians gathered together to come before God as a unit.

it wouldn't and didn't work in ancient Greece nor isreal that way. a virgin was a prize in the sex cults, and in jewry something to be respected . so they wanted it to be known.

 

[agua.]

I agree the 'cause is to show headship' that is not an issue.
'Because' of the angels' is the issue.

"For this cause" in reference to the angels means "because of" or "this is why" as the ESV puts it don't you think Deb ?

1Co 11:10 ESV That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

If the headship issue is the reason why the wife should wear a vail and this for some reason is because of the Angels then doesn't that mean that the headship issue somehow relates to or has effect on Angels ?

So are you saying that women are to wear head coverings to remind angels that they (the angels) are under God's authority?

Yes but it goes further imo. About v 1/3 of the angels rebel and follow satan so the message referring back to Eden shows how satan works by undermining headship. I suggest the Angels also have some order of headship which they're required to follow ( like ours in 1Cor11:3 ) which of course culminates with God at the peak. There's some form of added protecting that comes from following the created order imo.

 

[agua.]

If you can, tell me when the first manuscript containing 1 Corinthians 14 was found, and then provide the number of copies from the first 4 centuries.

You'll find that there are hardly any, and also you will find that there is variance concerning the passage in question. You realize that the earliest manuscripts we have are from the 2nd century and none of those are of 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. The earliest I know of is is Papyrus 123 which is an almost useless manuscript as it does not represent any major depiction of the text.

Ok Doulos I'll look into this can you provide me with your sources for this information and I'll compare them to what I find. Specifically the 1Cor 14 passage.

The manuscripts from very early on are not as common as By Grace has depicted, and since he did not actually post specifics regarding 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 I don't see how that refutes #2.

Basically one has to take on faith that someone did their homework and then told everyone, "it's 99.999% accurate," but when you actually look into the manuscripts you realize that there is more to it than just comparing manuscripts. There are some easier interpolations to spot, like 1 John 5:7b and then there are some that require some textual criticism such as this passage.

Oky doky Doulos. The point By Grace is making though is if the manuscripts internally are consistent regarding the passage then why would we suspect interpolation. I think we should stay with the Cor passage for now mate simply because there are separate arguments on 1John 5:7 etc and maybe you can start a separate thread on the topic of interpolation if you like.

Some people seem to have an aversion to doing this, but you have to recognize that this is 100% necessary to do in order to come up with a coherent and accurate translation. There are many conflicting manuscripts and someone has to determine which one does belong and which one doesn't, and even then they can't make all the decisions for you and just include some questionable sections. For example, scholars are just about certain that John 7:53-8:11 is an interpolation and yet translations include this despite giving a warning of such.

There are many scholars who will disagree that John 7:53-8:11 is interpolation so that isn't a good barometer Doulos. Maybe we should stick with actual presentations of comparisons concerning the 1Cor 14 passage and concentrate on that otherwise we'll end up comparing scholars.

It doesn't do any good to speak generally about the high percentage of agreement among the manuscripts as it is different with each text. Simply put, I don't think By Grace's comments in any way refute my argument.

Oky doky Doulos we'll look more specifically at the manuscripts and their consistency concerning 1Cor14:34,35.












.

 

[Butch5]

it wouldn't and didn't work in ancient Greece nor isreal that way. a virgin was a prize in the sex cults, and in jewry something to be respected . so they wanted it to be known.

I don't see what you're getting at.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Ok Doulos I'll look into this can you provide me with your sources for this information and I'll compare them to what I find. Specifically the 1Cor 14 passage.

Here is a list of the early manuscripts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_papyrus

There are also the unical scripts which I will have to assemble, it may take me a bit to get the information together as I used various sources.

Oky doky Doulos. The point By Grace is making though is if the manuscripts internally are consistent regarding the passage then why would we suspect interpolation.

The point By Grace has "made" hasn't really been made as he hasn't demonstrated in any way that the manuscripts are indeed consistent. He has assumed in principle or on faith that they are, and appealed to an authority who spoke only vaguely on the matter and not specifically about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

There are many scholars who will disagree that John 7:53-8:11 is interpolation so that isn't a good barometer Doulos.

This is beside the point, but I wonder who they are. I don't see how one could reject the idea that it is an interpolation based on the evidence.

Maybe we should stick with actual presentations of comparisons concerning the 1Cor 14 passage and concentrate on that otherwise we'll end up comparing scholars.

I was making an argument for the importance and influence of Biblical scholarship on popular modern translations, I made those two separate points for that purpose.

Oky doky Doulos we'll look more specifically at the manuscripts and their consistency concerning 1Cor14:34,35.

Here are some examples of the variants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
This Codex has a umlaut used in the margin which indicates uncertainty with the text, and is the same for the Codex Fuldensis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Fuldensis

Here are some other instances where the passage comes after v.40 instead of at 34-35. I am of the opinion as other various other scholars that an interpolation best explains this discrepancy, in addition to the interruption of Paul's narrative and the distinct difference in style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuscule_88
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Claromontanus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Augiensis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Boernerianus

This should help us start out the discussion.

 

[Butch5]

Paul is talking about actually praying in 1 Cor 11:5 (NIV), so IMO not a service as such but just the prayer part.

He says when she is praying or prophesying

 

[Stan1953]

He says when she is praying or prophesying

Yes, sorry meant to say both...the thought just didn't make it fully to the keyboard.

 

[Deborah13]

"For this cause" in reference to the angels means "because of" or "this is why" as the ESV puts it don't you think Deb ?

1Co 11:10 ESV That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

If the headship issue is the reason why the wife should wear a vail and this for some reason is because of the Angels then doesn't that mean that the headship issue somehow relates to or has effect on Angels ?


Yes but it goes further imo. About v 1/3 of the angels rebel and follow satan so the message referring back to Eden shows how satan works by undermining headship. I suggest the Angels also have some order of headship which they're required to follow ( like ours in 1Cor11:3 ) which of course culminates with God at the peak. There's some form of added protecting that comes from following the created order imo.

I agree with this whole post.

 

[reba]

in·ter·po·late
verb\in-ˈtər-pə-ˌlāt\
: to put (something) between other things or parts;especially : to put (words) into a piece of writing or a conversation

 

[agua.]

Here is a list of the early manuscripts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament_papyrus

There are also the unical scripts which I will have to assemble, it may take me a bit to get the information together as I used various sources.

Here are some examples of the variants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Vaticanus
This Codex has a umlaut used in the margin which indicates uncertainty with the text, and is the same for the Codex Fuldensis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Fuldensis

Here are some other instances where the passage comes after v.40 instead of at 34-35. I am of the opinion as other various other scholars that an interpolation best explains this discrepancy, in addition to the interruption of Paul's narrative and the distinct difference in style.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minuscule_88
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Claromontanus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Augiensis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Boernerianus

This should help us start out the discussion.

Thanks Doulos I'll take a look at it. While I'm doing that I'd still like to hear your understanding of the 1Cor11 passages referring to head coverings and headship and why it involves the Angels. This will help me understand your thinking a little better if you're interested.

I'll get back to you.