Paul's eight Biblical evidences concerning the Jewish People

[golfjack]

I will have to divide this post in sections, as it is very long. I want people to study this position.

There are eight scriptural evidences that indicate that Romans 9-11 refer exclusively to the Jerwish people:

1. Adoptions as sons: The nation Israel was made God's children, which is clearly confirmed in Exodus 4:22: Thus says the vLord: Israel is my son, my first born. The Greek word used in Romans 9:4 for children is the same as the one used in Romans 8:16: The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.

Israel alone received the glory, the covenants, the Law, the directions for tabernacle worship, and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, the prophets, and ultimately, they are the human source of Jesus Christ. Israel alone is referred to by God as My son.

2. The Divine glory: Only the Jewish people experienced the Shekinah glory, which means the glorious appearance of God. This was visible in the pillar of fire that led Israel from Egypt to the Promised Land. ( see Ex. 13:21; 33:9; Numbers 12:5; 14:14).

This visible presense of God was present in the tabernacle in the wilderness ( Ex. 40:36-38) and in the temple when it was built in Jerusalem ( Ezek. 1:28; 3:23; 9:3). The visible presense of God will return to Jerusalem when Messiah rules the earth from the Temple Mount, ushering in the Golden Age of Peace. There will be no need for light there.

3. The covenants are theirs: The God of the Bible is a covenant God, and He never breaks covenant. Moses tells us this in Deut. 7:9. The covenants God makes with His people are everlasting, without end, and actually translated longer than forever. These covenants are not based on man's faithfulness to God; They're based on God's faithfulness to man. Those that teach that God has broken covenant with the Jewish people teach a false doctrine based on scriptural ignorance and a narcissistic attitude. God mmade this covenant with Abraham ( see Gen. 12:2-3).

Also, read Gen. 15:9-21; Gen. 17:7-14; Exod. 2:24; 6:3-5.

God gave a covenant to King David in Psalm 105:8-11 concerning the Jewish right to own and possess the land of Israel forever. Then God gave David a covenant that His throne would be established forever ( 2 Sam. 7:12-13, 16). In the future, He shall ( Jesus) shall rule the earth forever from the city of Jerusalem, and every knee should bow.. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father ( Phil. 2:10-11).

Evengelicals who teach that God broke covenant with the Jewish people can have absolutely no confidence that God will not break covenant with the Gentiles.

Five more to go.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: Paul's eight Biblical evidences concerning the Jewish Pe

Evengelicals who teach that God broke covenant with the Jewish people can have absolutely no confidence that God will not break covenant with the Gentiles. May God bless, Golfjack

The saint/body of Christ is not under any covenant - where did you get this?

 

[golfjack]

reply

4. The receiving of the Law: The Law is actually the Torah....the written word of God. It is a misunderstanding for Christians to call it the Law of Moses. It is not the Law of Moses; it is the law of God as given to Moses on Mt. Sinai for all humanity to read, honor, and obey.

When Paul wrote his letter to the Romans, the Torah had been in existence for more than 1300 years. Think about that. America has only existed 229 years as of this date.

It is important for Christians to remember that Jesus was a rabbi who introduced Himself as the living Torah, Word of God. ( see John 1:1, 14. The Torah was given to the Jewish people thousands of years before the Gentiles knew it existed ( Romans 3:1-2).

5. The Temple worship: Temple worship refers to the elaborate set of regulations for construction of the Temple as well as the exact sacrificial system that would cleanse Israel from sin.

The symbolism of the temple was a physical portrait of God's plan for man. The temple was surrounded by a fence of white fabric, symbolizing holiness and separation from the world.

The entrance to the temple complex had only one door, as Jesus Christ Himself said of Himself: I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, He will be saved ( John 10:9). The doors to the temple were very wide, fulfilling the words of Jesus, Whosoever will come... ( Mark 8:34).

The first item found inside was the laver for the washing of the hands. It was necessary that a person be purified before that person approached the altar for the forgiveness of sins. Examine yourselves as to whether you are in faith ( 2 Cor. 13:5).

Next was the altar where the sacrifice was prewsented to God by the priest. It was a daily reminder to all Israel that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness ( Heb. 9:22).

It was only to the Jewish people that God gave the temple and its fathomless revelations concerning God's plan for man.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[JM]

The true spiritual seed of Abraham are all true believers in every age, “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.â€Â

Abraham’s Spiritual Seed
1. the “election of grace†– Romans 11:5, 9:23:26
2. the “saved†of all ages – Galatians 3:24-29
3. “the Bride of Christ†– Revelations 21:1-3, 9-4

Spiritual blessings were never promised to Israel just because they were Israelites, effectual calling is a perfect example given by Paul in Romans 9:11, 24 when the Holy Ghost lead him to contrast two covenant children. Abraham’s justification was used by Paul in Romans 4 to illustrate God’s pattern for saving all believers in all ages.

Thing Promised: seed, nation, land:

Physical Fulfillment: Isaac, Israel, Palestine, with a future fulfillment see Rom. 11.
Spiritual Fulfillment: Christ as the true seed, Church as the true nation, Salvation rest as the true land.

In Gal. 3:16 Paul argues for ‘seed’ and not ‘seeds’ and that one seed is Christ. Renewal by the Holy Ghost due to electing work of Grace is the only way one can access the promise made by Abraham (Romans 9:11, 23-24; Hebrews 6:13-15). Abraham experienced the justification of faith in the promise of the Gospel (Gal. 3:6-9, 18), we experience the same justification because we are Abraham’s true seed (Gal. 3:29).

The major differences between dispensational and covenant approach is related to the idea of Abraham’s seed and what that means.

 

[golfjack]

repy

Jm. How in the world can we be natural descendants of Abraham? Maybe, you meant spiritual descendants.

Pauk writes: They are not all of Israel who are of Israel (Rom. 9:6). Paul is saying there's a difference between all those who claim to be Abraham's descendants and those who constitute Israel as the people of God.

Paul demonstrates, first, that Israel is a matter of election rather than birth ( Rom. 9:6-13). Not all those called children of Abtraham ( natural descendants) are actually his seed as demonstrated in Gen. 21:12, which states, In Isaac your seed shall be called.

Remember that Abraham had two sons. His first son was Ishmael, born to the Egyptian maid Hagar ( see Gen. 16). But , says Paul, Ishmael, through a physical descendant of Abraham, was not of the seed ( Greek word sperma) that produced Isaac, the spiritual child.

Ishmael was reproduced when Abraham was able to have children in his own sexual strength. Isaac was born by a supernatural act of God, since both Abraham and Sarah were well past the age of childbirth.

In Roomans 9:8 Paul shifts from children of flesh ( Abraham) to children of God. This shift is subtle but very significant. If Abraham's spiritual seed comes through God's promise and power, the Jewish people are not simply Abraham's seed, but quite literally God's children.


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

3. “the Bride of Christ†– Revelations 21:1-3, 9-4

Jason, how can we see the Bride as the ekklesia if we are the body of the bridegroom? How can the bride marry the body if we are both? It can't; we cannot marry ourselves.

The Bride is Israel; the Body is the ekklesia. If you don't believe me, ask AV.

I don't care to debate this, just think about it. ;-)

 

[JM]

Jm. How in the world can we be natural descendants of Abraham? Maybe, you meant spiritual descendants.

I'm sorry, I don't believe I wrote that we were of the natural line of Abraham but children according to the promise by faith.

Vic, I found this quote:
Answer: The body of Christ is identified as those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have been given the Holy Spirit to indwell them. The scriptures are clear that since the day of Pentecost in Acts 2, all believers are placed into the body of Christ by the baptizing of the Holy Spirit. So all believers today are in the body of Christ as Ephesians 4 states.

The bride of Christ speaks of the same persons mentioned above but is really a looking ahead to the time when we will be united with Jesus our groom. The bride is to prepare for her wedding by keeping herself pure and focused on the groom. The New Jerusalem is compared to the bride because of it’s beauty but is never said to be the actual bride. The bride will be brought into the New Jerusalem by the groom as often is the case of the carrying over the threshold to their new abode. Here are some verses that help clarify the concepts discussed earlier:

1 Corinthians 12:27 – You are the body of Christ – speaking of the church and those who have been given spiritual gifts.

Ephesians 4:12 – The edifying of the body of Christ is the reason we are equipped to minister, earlier in the beginning of this chapter is the discussion on who is in the body – one faith one baptism.

Rev. 21:2 – The new Jerusalem is beautifully adorned as a bride because it will be the home of His bride.

Rev. 21:9 – The bride is said to be the Lamb’s wife.

Rev. 22:17 – The Spirit and the bride say to the bridegroom, “come.â€Â

John 3:29 – John the Baptist does not seem to be included as the bride.

Ephesians 5:25-28 – The discussion of husbands and wives. Jesus sets the example by how he loved the church and gave himself for it. Church must equal wife.

Revelation 19:7-9 – The marriage of the Lamb, the wife is dress in fine linen, clean and white which is the righteousness of the saints.

If a remnant of Jewish believers are left after the rapture, then it could still be Israel mentioned in the passage you listed, I don’t see a problem. Isn’t the Church found as the Bride of Christ in Ephesians 5:21-32?

Let me think on it.

As for asking AV, maybe you should. If you're consistent, like our brother AV is, then you'll soon see the Church [following dispensationalism] isn't in the Revelation. Ask him!

~JM~

 

[Vic C.]

Yes, I am familiar with that passage in Ephesians. I see two things in that passage:

1- Paul is using the relationship of a husband and wife as a model for our relationship with Jesus. He isn't actually suggesting we are the Bride.

2- Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

I asked before how we could possibably be the body AND the Bride. Can a body marry itself? On the other hand, the Jews are not part of the Body. Their relationship with Messiah will be established when the Bride(them) marrys the Bridegroom (Jesus). I don't see any real evidence in the NT that we are the Bride.

LOL, this is too funny... I was never big on dispensationalism, but you were. Though I have clung to the little bit of dispensationalism I believed (that being God deals with Israel and the ekklesia in slightly different ways), you seemed to have zipped by me. Do you not believe in any dispensations at all? You tried so hard to get me to believe at one time. :

Oh, here is AV's response... of course he'd like me to believe in a pretrib rapture, but nonetheless, we Do agree on this:

I used to believe that we are the bride. But after studying this bride in the OT, I now believe "they" are the Bride of Christ and we are the Body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 capped it off for me - Go ahead... shoot me.

I won't shoot you Vic - instead I'l give you a hearty amen for you letting the scriiptures speak.

I to had to come to grips with this some time ago. I agree - we are not the bride - it appears the bride is Israel.

Good work Vic 8-)
God bless

 

[Vic C.]

golfjack, sorry to have digressed. : Carry on and please forgive me.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Now, I want to talk about the controversy of divine election.

The doctrine of divine election is, without duubt, the most controversial concept in Scripture. It is far more complex and controversial than the prophesy matrix of Daniel through Revelation or the prophetic explasination of Ezekiel's war to be led by Russia and its Arab coalition of nations as they invade Israel in Ezekiel 38-39. That coalition will be decimated by the hand of God on the hills of Israel, killing 82 percent of Israel's enemies.

First, it is obvious that divine election is taught in Scripture . ( see Romans 9:27; 11:5, 7, 28). The question is: To whom is divine election offered? In my opinion, divine election is offered only to the nation of Israel.

Consider what divine election actually means. It means that a loving and gracious God has elected to save some and elected to allow others to be lost for eternity in the fires of hell. Now you can understand the gravity of the contraversy.

How can divine election be true if God hass given all men free moral agency, which is the power to choose to accept or to reject God's offer of salvation? Free will, or free moral agency, means the ability of an individual to make his or her personal choice for or against God, and it is an indisputible fact in Scripture.

Consider one of the following scriptures that proves we have the right to choose good or evil. I have set before you life and death.... Choose life (m Deut. 30:19).

Divine election is a fact for some of the Jewish people who are a remnant according to the election of grace ( Rom. 11:5). Divine election simply is not for the Gentiles.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[JM]

Literal or literalistic?

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Literally, we are espoused to Christ. How are we espoused to Christ if we are the body?

Is it just a metaphor?

When I really think about it, it’s more about the closeness we have with Christ our Lord. Are we literally the body of Christ? Is Israel literally the bride of Christ?

Using the idea of a literalistic understanding, how is it possible that we are "wheat" among tares? How can we be the body and food for the body as well?

~JM~

 

[stranger]

golfjack,

Can one safely assume that 'replacement theology' is disregarded in this tread?

blessings: stranger

 

[golfjack]

reply

I absolutely don't believe in replacement theology, and neither does the Bible.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[stranger]

Re: reply

I absolutely don't believe in replacement theology, and neither does the Bible.
May God bless, Golfjack

I was taught it and believed it up to the point that I met a Messainic Jew. He convinced me that it was error.
blessing: stranger