Paul's Gospel.

[Georges]

I've been suspicious of certain of Paul's writings for ages. Is being 'suspicious' of Paul a 'no-no' within Christian circles? Does it automatically disqualify one from claiming to BE a Christian?

As I had posted in the other "Gospel" thread......

Take the "Pauline Letters" and "Acts of the Apostles" out of the NT and you have a very Jewish Messiah.....

Take the "Gospels and Revelation" out of the NT and you have a very Gentile Messiah......


I made this observation based on a couple of books I had purchased some years ago....Richard Lattimore (A Greek Scholar) translated Greek into English "The Gospels and Revelation" and "The Acts and Letters". The reason I had bought these was....

1. The Author's reputation as a scholar and...
2. The format of the 2 books are in story form (verses aren't numbered). this makes for a much smoother reading...without the distraction of verses.

What strikes me now as curious...is that he had divided the NT into 2 sections....The Gospels and Revelation, and The Acts and Letters....

I think if you read each book separately, you would have a Jewish Messiah and a Christian (Pauline) Messiah....

 

[AVBunyan]

I've been suspicious of certain of Paul's writings for ages. Is being 'suspicious' of Paul a 'no-no' within Christian circles? Does it automatically disqualify one from claiming to BE a Christian?

What is your authority for being suspicious?

 

[JM]

It’s revelation progressive? That’s the way I understand it, Paul’s good news is better then those who had come before in terms of details, not substance. “…preached before the gospel unto Abrahamââ¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â Gal. 3

 

[AVBunyan]

It’s revelation progressive?

Yes, how can one not see that Paul was given more new truths - Can anyone show me prior to Paul...

1. Where a saint was sealed with the Holy Spirit?
2. Where the saint was seated in Christ in the heavenly places - Eph. 2:6?
3. Where besides a prophet that anyone knew prior to Paul that Christ died for sins and the indiviaul sinner?
4. Where one can find the mystery revealed prior to Paul?

And a few more...

God bless

 

[Soma-Sight]

I've been suspicious of certain of Paul's writings for ages. Is being 'suspicious' of Paul a 'no-no' within Christian circles? Does it automatically disqualify one from claiming to BE a Christian?

My first memory verse was Romans 12:1-3 and Paul has a lot of things that sound True.

His verses on the Resurrection and Love give me hope to see long dead family members again in some dimension.....

He also has a lot of things that sound like rubbish!

1. Slavery is A - ok.
2. Women are inferior.
3. Submittance to ANY government you may be under.
4. Denounces the vegetarian lifestyle as "weak" when Christ was an Essene and vegetarian.
5. He judges everyone then says not to judge.
6. His disagreements with James and Peter are noted in history as well as in the Gospels themselves.

 

[Vic C.]

Soma, you spoke of submission to ANY government. Can you show me where it says that? Aslo, is it ok for Peter to say this?...

2 Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Pet 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

 

[HisFriend]

Soma, you spoke of submission to ANY government. Can you show me where it says that? Aslo, is it ok for Peter to say this?...

2 Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2 Pet 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Some like to justify the evil ways of some human governments by abusing Biblical verses. I say when another Hitler rises again, then I would ask they please do support him.

Here is how Peter handled the issue of authority.

And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard."

He didn't obey his governing authority did he?

Neither did many early Christians when Rome ordered them to bow to other gods.

Christians are to only submit to authority to keep the peace with men and only when it is possible to do so.

 

[Georges]

It’s revelation progressive?

Yes, how can one not see that Paul was given more new truths - Can anyone show me prior to Paul...

1. Where a saint was sealed with the Holy Spirit?
2. Where the saint was seated in Christ in the heavenly places - Eph. 2:6?
3. Where besides a prophet that anyone knew prior to Paul that Christ died for sins and the indiviaul sinner?
4. Where one can find the mystery revealed prior to Paul?

And a few more...

God bless

Yeh...I quite agree with AV....where did those before Paul use Gnosticism verbage to explain the mysteries that were only revealed to him...

 

[AVBunyan]

Yeh...I quite agree with AV....where did those before Paul use Gnosticism verbage to explain the mysteries that were only revealed to him...

Will youplease explain this gnosticism?

thanks

 

[Georges]

Yeh...I quite agree with AV....where did those before Paul use Gnosticism verbage to explain the mysteries that were only revealed to him...

Will youplease explain this gnosticism?

thanks

Have in many posts.....

There is a lot to it and a bit of variety but, basically, in a nutshell.....Gnostic's on the whole didn't believe that Jesus was a man...He was some type of ethereal creature...

Gnostics believed that the way to salvation was through knowledge...Before I go any further there were both Jewish and Gentile Gnostics.....They also believed that special knowledge (for salvation) was given to certain individuals...When Paul uses language such as "mystery revealed" it is the same language used by the Gnostics who had "hidden knowledge" revealed. From what I've read, this usually happened to people individually.

AV, you yourself can pull up a gazillion internet sites that deal with Gnositcism....do a quick search on Paul in wikipedia...it has it's own comments on Paul and Gnosticism....If you google "Paul and Gnosticism" a gaizillion sites with that reference come up.

 

[Vic C.]

... He didn't obey his governing authority did he?

Neither did many early Christians when Rome ordered them to bow to other gods.

Christians are to only submit to authority to keep the peace with men and only when it is possible to do so.

I understand fully what you are saying but we are not to disrepect this authority unless it conflicts with the Authority of God, which is what Peter and the early church martyrs were concerned about.

None of that changes what Peter said in the verses I quoted. He called those who despised government; unjust, presumptuous and selfwilled. They spoke against dignity.

I will not subject myself to a jail sentence because I may disagree with something my government did or said (excepting my Faith) but I WILL take the sentence in the Name of my Lord and Creator.

Also, remember Peter himself, dissed the very Authority of Jesus Himself... even he wasn't perfect. 8-)

 

[Disciple88]

This thread is off topic of what Soma is trying to get at... Soma, since you say that Paul is wrong, and that he betrayed God for what he is writing, you are denying scripture itself and you are denying the teachings or the apostles. You might say "well, i do not agree with what Paul said but everyone else I do." That does not make sense.

"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2Peter 3:14-16

See where it says their own destruction? Peter is writing here that anyone who twist's, distorts, and makes Paul's writings anything else then they truly are, are destined for destruction, or hell.

Knowing that Paul and Peter both met, and Peter, being the leader of the Apostles, approved of his teachings, Paul wrote under inspiration from God and therefore you are calling God stupid and spitting Him in the face for what the scriptures say. Every peice of scripture that we have in the Holy Bible is from God.

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2Peter 1:20-21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2Timothy 3:16

 

[Soma-Sight]

Hebrews A.D. 67-69 Unknown
Jude A.D. 68-70 Jude
Gospel of John A.D. 80-90 John
1 John A.D. 90-95 John
2 John A.D. 90-95 John
3 John A.D. 90-95 John
Revelation A.D. 94-96 John

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2Peter 1:20-21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2Timothy 3:16

Too bad the above books were not even written yet....

 

[Disciple88]

Hebrews A.D. 67-69 Unknown
Jude A.D. 68-70 Jude
Gospel of John A.D. 80-90 John
1 John A.D. 90-95 John
2 John A.D. 90-95 John
3 John A.D. 90-95 John
Revelation A.D. 94-96 John

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2Peter 1:20-21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2Timothy 3:16

Too bad the above books were not even written yet....

What are you talking about? What does the date of the book have to do with anyways?

2Peter A.D. 67-68
2Timothy A.D. 66-67

You are one blind person. I can not understand why you still twist what the Bible has said. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of All scripture.

 

[Solo]

Hebrews A.D. 67-69 Unknown
Jude A.D. 68-70 Jude
Gospel of John A.D. 80-90 John
1 John A.D. 90-95 John
2 John A.D. 90-95 John
3 John A.D. 90-95 John
Revelation A.D. 94-96 John

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2Peter 1:20-21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2Timothy 3:16

Too bad the above books were not even written yet....

What are you talking about? What does the date of the book have to do with anyways?

2Peter A.D. 67-68
2Timothy A.D. 66-67

You are one blind person. I can not understand why you still twist what the Bible has said. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of All scripture.

Now don't go and introduce him to the Holy Spirit!!!! Do you want him around for eternity?!!!! :o

 

[HisFriend]

Hebrews A.D. 67-69 Unknown
Jude A.D. 68-70 Jude
Gospel of John A.D. 80-90 John
1 John A.D. 90-95 John
2 John A.D. 90-95 John
3 John A.D. 90-95 John
Revelation A.D. 94-96 John

"knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2Peter 1:20-21

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God" 2Timothy 3:16

Too bad the above books were not even written yet....

What are you talking about? What does the date of the book have to do with anyways?

2Peter A.D. 67-68
2Timothy A.D. 66-67

You are one blind person. I can not understand why you still twist what the Bible has said. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of All scripture.

Actually it has a lot to do with it.

A lot of people like to insert the word "Bible" in place of the word "Scriptures" in those two verses. Quite impossible.

 

[Soma-Sight]

You are one blind person. I can not understand why you still twist what the Bible has said. ALL Scripture is inspired by God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of All scripture.

So lets bring on the Gospel of Mary!

Not to mention the Essene writings which were burned.

Dead Sea Scrolls....

????

Or the Catholic Version of the Bible?

Thats why it matters

Not to mention these writings!




30-60 Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 Titus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
100-200 Odes of Solomon
101-220 Book of Elchasai
105-115 Ignatius of Antioch
110-140 Polycarp to the Philippians
110-140 Papias
110-160 Oxyrhynchus 840 Gospel
110-160 Traditions of Matthias
111-112 Pliny the Younger
115 Suetonius
115 Tacitus
120-130 Quadratus of Athens
120-130 Apology of Aristides
120-140 Basilides
120-140 Naassene Fragment
120-160 Valentinus
120-180 Apocryphon of John
120-180 Gospel of Mary
120-180 Dialogue of the Savior
120-180 Gospel of the Savior
120-180 2nd Apocalypse of James
120-180 Trimorphic Protennoia
130-140 Marcion
130-150 Aristo of Pella
130-160 Epiphanes On Righteousness
130-160 Ophite Diagrams
130-160 2 Clement
130-170 Gospel of Judas
130-200 Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus
140-150 Epistula Apostolorum
140-160 Ptolemy
140-160 Isidore
140-170 Fronto
140-170 Infancy Gospel of James
140-170 Infancy Gospel of Thomas
140-180 Gospel of Truth
150-160 Martyrdom of Polycarp
150-160 Justin Martyr
150-180 Excerpts of Theodotus
150-180 Heracleon
150-200 Ascension of Isaiah
150-200 Acts of Peter
150-200 Acts of John
150-200 Acts of Paul
150-200 Acts of Andrew
150-225 Acts of Peter and the Twelve
150-225 Book of Thomas the Contender
150-250 Fifth and Sixth Books of Esra
150-300 Authoritative Teaching
150-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Paul
150-300 Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth
150-300 Melchizedek
150-400 Acts of Pilate
150-400 Anti-Marcionite Prologues
160-170 Tatian's Address to the Greeks
160-180 Claudius Apollinaris
160-180 Apelles
160-180 Julius Cassianus
160-250 Octavius of Minucius Felix
161-180 Acts of Carpus
165-175 Melito of Sardis
165-175 Hegesippus
165-175 Dionysius of Corinth
165-175 Lucian of Samosata
167 Marcus Aurelius
170-175 Diatessaron
170-200 Dura-Europos Gospel Harmony
170-200 Muratorian Canon
170-200 Treatise on the Resurrection
170-220 Letter of Peter to Philip
175-180 Athenagoras of Athens
175-185 Irenaeus of Lyons
175-185 Rhodon
175-185 Theophilus of Caesarea
175-190 Galen
178 Celsus
178 Letter from Vienna and Lyons
180 Passion of the Scillitan Martyrs
180-185 Theophilus of Antioch
180-185 Acts of Apollonius
180-220 Bardesanes
180-220 Kerygmata Petrou
180-230 Hippolytus of Rome
180-250 1st Apocalypse of James
180-250 Gospel of Philip
182-202 Clement of Alexandria
185-195 Maximus of Jerusalem
185-195 Polycrates of Ephesus
188-217 Talmud
189-199 Victor I
190-210 Pantaenus
193 Anonymous Anti-Montanist
193-216 Inscription of Abercius
197-220 Tertullian
200-210 Serapion of Antioch
200-210 Apollonius
200-220 Caius
200-220 Philostratus
200-225 Acts of Thomas
200-250 Didascalia
200-250 Books of Jeu
200-300 Pistis Sophia
200-300 Coptic Apocalypse of Peter
203 Acts of Perpetua and Felicitas
203-250 Origen


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

 

[Disciple88]

Why do you keep on bringing up different subjects when I keep showing you nothing but truth. Mary has nothing to do with this. The Catholic bible? Lol, the one with the "lost years of Jesus" in it? I'm not Catholic buddy. Anyways, I have shown you truth, and there is nothing more to discuss.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Why do you keep on bringing up different subjects when I keep showing you nothing but truth. Mary has nothing to do with this. The Catholic bible? Lol, the one with the "lost years of Jesus" in it? I'm not Catholic buddy. Anyways, I have shown you truth, and there is nothing more to discuss.

You said "ALL Scripture is inspired by God, the Holy Spirit is the Author of All scripture."

I just showed you massive amounts of scripture written in the same time period which were rejected by the early forming Church for there own reasons which evolved over time.

There was no "magic bullet" of doctrine springing out of the ground.

There was debates.

There was killing.

There was burning of texts that other sects disagreed with.

Its in the history. You can choose to reject this "Truth" but to me it seems very immature for a seeker of Truth.

 

[HisFriend]

Why do you keep on bringing up different subjects when I keep showing you nothing but truth. Mary has nothing to do with this. The Catholic bible? Lol, the one with the "lost years of Jesus" in it? I'm not Catholic buddy. Anyways, I have shown you truth, and there is nothing more to discuss.

I think you need to get informed. There is no such thing as a Catholic Bible with the "Lost years of Jesus" in it.