Paul's "Thorn in the Flesh"

[tig]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

ah, two minor observations.

People are not messengers (angles of Satan) devils are and people are not devils. Devils are clearly shown in the scriptures to be an entirely 'different entity' than the people they were upon/in. So no, the 'messenger of Satan' was not other people.

That messenger of Satan was IN his flesh. Other people are NOT in someone else's flesh. Everyone has their own flesh.

I have to agree, imo, with glorydaz, that the messenger of satan, was the same ministers of satan in chapter 11 that was tempting the believers of the good news into the way of sin again.

Messengers certainly are people, though messengers may refer to angels also. And the things Paul was suffering from these ministers in chapter 11 were certainly in his flesh, which could very well be the thorn in his flesh he was speaking of in chapter 12.

Again, it seems to go right along with glorydaz explanation imo.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Were it 'other people' Paul could have simply walked away from them.

Oh, not only did he walk away, he had to be let down in a basket to get away. But they did not just let him go, he was pursued. It's not quite that easy to walk away from pursuers.

Paul also referred to temptation "IN" his flesh. We know that Satan (inclusive of devils) work the workings of temptation.

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh-

In short, Paul had a devil/demon put IN him by God. The result of which was temptation and perhaps also 'undefined' infirmities.

s

I need to look at this passage. And surely Satan is the great tempter, but we know that Solomon spoke of adulteress tempting, Jesus was tempted by the Jews, ect. But Paul having a devil in him? I can't really see that, seems strange. I remember the Jews saying that about Jesus, but Jesus declared it was not true. I think it was for Paul also, what he did seems to have in him was the pure life giving words of JC himself, the one directly sent by God himself, and signified with miracles and signs and with his resurrection from the dead, and his continued dominance and rule of all things.

But I will look further into this passage about the temptation in his flesh and see if I can wrap my head around it and I will get back to you.

 

[smaller]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

I have to agree, imo, with glorydaz, that the messenger of satan, was the same ministers of satan in chapter 11 that was tempting the believers of the good news into the way of sin again.

I can't legitimately blame 'the supposed other people' for actions of the tempter 'within' our minds, as if the tempter doesn't tempt us within.

And that also makes people the tempting devils. I don't buy that either.

Paul had evil present with him. (Romans 7:21) even defining that as 'a law.' A messenger of Satan IS evil and would certainly qualify as 'EVIL PRESENT' with Paul. I don't think it's a law any person avoids other than God Himself in Jesus Christ.

Messengers certainly are people, though messengers may refer to angels also.

When Satan spoke through Peter I would certainly say Peter was not the messenger of Satan but was at that particular point Satan's unknowing pawn. No use blaming Peter for being Satan when Satan was speaking from Peter.

Satan was Satan, Peter was Peter. No mixing required.

And the things Paul was suffering from these ministers in chapter 11 were certainly in his flesh, which could very well be the thorn in his flesh he was speaking of in chapter 12.

Were the 'messenger of Satan' not stated as being IN Paul's flesh you might have a point, but still unlikely. Blaming other people is an attempt to defer away the obvious primarily because believers are very fond of not dealing with the fact that the tempter operates in their own minds from time to time as well. Easier to blame 'the other unrighteous people' rather than look at the facts personally. I go one step further and say it may very well be the tempter in believers not wanting his workings personally pinpointed as being within their minds and defers to external sights only, as in 'the other people.'

Again, it seems to go right along with glorydaz explanation imo.

glorydaz isn't fond of fessing up to the tempter tempting in his mind, so hence the above paragraph may particularly apply to the tempter perhaps in operation there as well.

For the record I readily admit that Satan tempts me in MIND and that fact therefore places Satan in my flesh/mind during those times. I consider this just a fact of being a knowing Christian and have no issues in dealing with what I consider a truthful fact of scripture.

How bout you?

Oh, not only did he walk away, he had to be let down in a basket to get away. But they did not just let him go, he was pursued. It's not quite that easy to walk away from pursuers.

Well, unfortunately we could look at all the other people and probably find the tempter, that is SATAN or DEVILS operating within their flesh/minds as well and not just them. There is plenty of N.T. records to bear this out, several thousand instances in fact already written for observation. No sense in not seeing the obvious is there?

I need to look at this passage. And surely Satan is the great tempter, but we know that Solomon spoke of adulteress tempting, Jesus was tempted by the Jews, ect. But Paul having a devil in him? I can't really see that,

Most believers who haven't considered the fact personally can't see it and I chalk that up to a cause that is probably 'not them' but is 'probably' blinding them to the fact of the matter. It's one of the toughest subject matters within Christianity to fess up to 'personally.' Easier to blame Satan as being in the other people on T.V.

seems strange. I remember the Jews saying that about Jesus, but Jesus declared it was not true.

I don't believe Satan had anything 'in Him' so logic may dictate His Temptation was 'external' in nature as in The Spirit engaging the anti-Christ spirit, Satan, without the internal mix in His Mind. I don't think the balance of us have that pleasure.

But I will look further into this passage about the temptation in his flesh and see if I can wrap my head around it and I will get back to you.

K.

You might add to the mix that Paul could not say he had no sin and still be 'in Truth' (1 John 1:8) and also that he who commits sin is 'of the devil' (1 John 3:8) so again that would put the devil in the mix on Paul's sin as well, inclusive of sin in mind, [which is inclusive of temptation.]

If Satan inserts a sin thought it's still a sin regardless imho, whether it extends to where it can be heard or seen on the outside of the cup.

s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Some may blame their temptations "ALL" on the devil, but, they forget that we have to contend not only with the devil but with our own flesh and the temptations the world sends our way..."The world, the flesh, and the devil..."

 

[glorydaz]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

ah, two minor observations.

People are not messengers (angles of Satan) devils are and people are not devils. Devils are clearly shown in the scriptures to be an entirely 'different entity' than the people they were upon/in. So no, the 'messenger of Satan' was not other people.

That messenger of Satan was IN his flesh. Other people are NOT in someone else's flesh. Everyone has their own flesh.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Were it 'other people' Paul could have simply walked away from them.

Paul also referred to temptation "IN" his flesh. We know that Satan (inclusive of devils) work the workings of temptation.

Galatians 4:14
And my temptation which was in my flesh-

In short, Paul had a devil/demon put IN him by God. The result of which was temptation and perhaps also 'undefined' infirmities.

s

No, satan can NOT be in any believer. We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. Our house has been swept and garnished, but it isn't empty. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. To preach that demons can be IN a believer is to put more faith in the STRONG MAN, than in the Spirit of Christ who dwells in each of those who have been born of God.

And people most certainly can be messengers. They can be messengers from satan when they preach against the gospel of grace. They can be messengers of satan when they promote the power of satan, and claim satan can inhabit the temple of God.

 

[smaller]

Some may blame their temptations "ALL" on the devil, but, they forget that we have to contend not only with the devil but with our own flesh and the temptations the world sends our way..."The world, the flesh, and the devil..."

I reject the notion that we battle flesh. What is 'in' same is another story.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh-

If you read the balance of the above, it's pretty much the 'world' of darkness.

The real enemies that Jesus dealt with were not viewable through flesh eyes, but were spiritually discerned and within the hearts of mankind.

There is a world one sees with their eyes and there are spiritual forces, UNSEEN which also have 'their world.' One Jesus loves. The other, not so much.

s

 

[smaller]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

No, satan can NOT be in any believer.

Oh please. If the tempter tempts you in mind the tempter is 'in' you.

You are welcome to believe the devil floats around you on a little black unseen cloud if you want.

We are the temple of the Holy Ghost. Our house has been swept and garnished, but it isn't empty.

Oh yeah?

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Since you can't say you don't have any sin and have not sinned, the fact remains that believers sin and when they do then THIS is also a FACT about their 'sins.'

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

You can take heart because ONE of you will be spared and the other NOT.

And Paul's temple/body was 'not clean.' Why?

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I would consider Paul, the child of God CLEAN. The other working which was of the devil, NO, not in the least. He knew the difference between himself and evil thoughts resulting in evil words resulting in evil actions make SLAVES of the DEVIL and he sought none of that for any of us. But it IS on the table for everyone who is not aware. The latter are known because they speak as follows:

Luke 18
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You are certainly welcome to believe you exist in sinless perfection.

s

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

...I think you confuse and combine the infirmities and the revelations and visions. Paul said that if he is going to glory in something, it is not going to be his revelations and visions from the Lord, but the things that are humiliating, like public floggings, hungering and thirsting, being naked, ect.

I understand this perfectly. But no one knows what the specific "thorn in (Paul's) flesh, a messenger of satan" (2 Cor. 12:7 NIV1984) is and where it came from among all the "weaknesses, ...insults, ...hardships, ...persecutions, ..difficulties" (2 Cor. NIV1984) he has endured that he says he delights in because they cause him to rely on God, but which he asked God to remove. Paul does not tell us.

If you think persecutions are a source of pride I may gentle suggest you have never been persecuted...

My pride wants to make sure you understand that you are very wrong. (And you're telling me persecution is not a source of pride?)

...as Paul clearly states that his infirmities (which the Lord refered to as weakness) is humbling, not something to be proud of. People calling you a liar, ridiculing, beating, ect is a very humbling experience.

Yes, that is humbling, but I know first hand that sharing the stories of witnessing the gospel in your home and work place can be a source of pride...as humiliated as I was made in some of them.

I can't relate to being physically beat up for the gospel, but I most certainly know what it is to be ridiculed and slandered and punished for sharing the truth. You'll just have to trust me on that. And let's not talk about a very privileged experience I had with God. Like Paul, I am most definitely guilty of taking pride in the things I've done and the experiences I've had with God. But I am also, like Paul, restrained in that boasting to a certain degree by the sufferings in my flesh that I endure without relief that to others would suggest my distance from God, not my closeness to him...and which keep me dependent on God's strength, not on the glory of things I've done or seen.

Again, Paul did not want to boast, he says he has become a fool in boasting just for doing it, but if he is going to boast, he will boast about his weaknesses, infirmities, distresses, reproaches, and necessities (12: 9-11), and not his revelations and visions. He says if he must boast, then it will be in the things that keep him humble.

Now, out of that list of things, which is the source of Paul's thorn?

One thing further, that I believe proves that Paul's thorn in the flesh was all these fleshly things he was suffering.

Let's not misunderstand here. We know right from the passage that his thorn is somehow tormenting him in his flesh. The contention being put forth here by some is that they know who/what the thorn was, namely the persecutions of other people because they say that's how 'thorn' is used in various other passages. I'm telling you that out of all of Paul's "weaknesses, ...insults, ...hardships, ...persecutions, ..difficulties." (2 Cor. NIV1984) we simply do not know what the specific 'it' (vs.8) is that he is enduring that God will not take away so that he will be humble and not boast in the things he's done for the kingdom and has been privileged to see. We don't even know it to be a person causing the distress, only that he suffers in his flesh on an ongoing basis whatever it is and whoever or whatever brought it.

See, the Lord told him that this thorn in the flesh is what makes him weak, so that the Lord's strength could be revealed. And Paul says that all these infirmities and reproaches and necessities and persecutions and distresses for Christ's sake makes him weak, but ironically, that is when he is strong.

And don't you see we simply do not know which consequence of which source of suffering Paul asked the Lord to take away? Instead he explains how it will remain in order to keep him strong in God's strength, not his own. We don't even know if the messenger of satan is a person or not. Paul doesn't tell us. All we can do is look at the evidence for clues that suggest the nature of the weakness in his flesh that keeps him from boasting about what he has done and what he has seen. And picking out only one way the analogy of a 'thorn' is used in scripture, and picking out only one of several possible sources of suffering he says he has gone through is simply not a reasonable way to know for sure that his thorn is the pain of people who are persecuting him.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

Oh please. If the tempter tempts you in mind the tempter is 'in' you.

You are welcome to believe the devil floats around you on a little black unseen cloud if you want.


Oh yeah?

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Since you can't say you don't have any sin and have not sinned, the fact remains that believers sin and when they do then THIS is also a FACT about their 'sins.'

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

You can take heart because ONE of you will be spared and the other NOT.

And Paul's temple/body was 'not clean.' Why?

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I would consider Paul, the child of God CLEAN. The other working which was of the devil, NO, not in the least. He knew the difference between himself and evil thoughts resulting in evil words resulting in evil actions make SLAVES of the DEVIL and he sought none of that for any of us. But it IS on the table for everyone who is not aware. The latter are known because they speak as follows:

Luke 18
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You are certainly welcome to believe you exist in sinless perfection.

s

Paul is speaking as a carnal man in Chapter 7, describing the law of sin and death. Move on to chapter 8. Sin has no more dominion over a believer. We need only resist the devil and he will flee. Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. You can tout satan's power until the cows come home, but if he has power over you it's because you allow it and are still a carnal man. The Spiritual man minds the things of the spirit, walks in the spirit, and is no longer under condemnation. Why are you so eager to put fear and doubt into the body of Christ? You don't build up, you tear down. That's rotten fruit and not the fruit of the Spirit of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

I understand this perfectly. But no one knows what the specific "thorn in (Paul's) flesh, a messenger of satan" (2 Cor. 12:7 NIV1984) is and where it came from among all the "weaknesses, ...insults, ...hardships, ...persecutions, ..difficulties" (2 Cor. NIV1984) he has endured that he says he delights in because they cause him to rely on God, but which he asked God to remove. Paul does not tell us.



My pride wants to make sure you understand that you are very wrong. (And you're telling me persecution is not a source of pride?)



Yes, that is humbling, but I know first hand that sharing the stories of witnessing the gospel in your home and work place can be a source of pride...as humiliated as I was made in some of them.

I can't relate to being physically beat up for the gospel, but I most certainly know what it is to be ridiculed and slandered and punished for sharing the truth. You'll just have to trust me on that. And let's not talk about a very privileged experience I had with God. Like Paul, I am most definitely guilty of taking pride in the things I've done and the experiences I've had with God. But I am also, like Paul, restrained in that boasting to a certain degree by the sufferings in my flesh that I endure without relief that to others would suggest my distance from God, not my closeness to him...and which keep me dependent on God's strength, not on the glory of things I've done or seen.



Now, out of that list of things, which is the source of Paul's thorn?



Let's not misunderstand here. We know right from the passage that his thorn is somehow tormenting him in his flesh. The contention being put forth here by some is that they know who/what the thorn was, namely the persecutions of other people because they say that's how 'thorn' is used in various other passages. I'm telling you that out of all of Paul's "weaknesses, ...insults, ...hardships, ...persecutions, ..difficulties." (2 Cor. NIV1984) we simply do not know what the specific 'it' (vs.8) is that he is enduring that God will not take away so that he will be humble and not boast in the things he's done for the kingdom and has been privileged to see. We don't even know it to be a person causing the distress, only that he suffers in his flesh on an ongoing basis whatever it is and whoever or whatever brought it.




And don't you see we simply do not know which consequence of which source of suffering Paul asked the Lord to take away? Instead he explains how it will remain in order to keep him strong in God's strength, not his own. We don't even know if the messenger of satan is a person or not. Paul doesn't tell us. All we can do is look at the evidence for clues that suggest the nature of the weakness in his flesh that keeps him from boasting about what he has done and what he has seen. And picking out only one way the analogy of a 'thorn' is used in scripture, and picking out only one of several possible sources of suffering he says he has gone through is simply not a reasonable way to know for sure that his thorn is the pain of people who are persecuting him.

You kinda remind me of doubting Thomas. ;) I'm not saying that's a bad thing, as there are benefits to being sceptical, but I do want you to know that I'm not saying I know for sure what Paul's thorn was. I just enjoy studying the Word of God and considering other possibilites for some of these things we don't have an exact answer on. Not only do we get to delve into some of the OT verses, but we can actually gain insight we hadn't had before. Do we have to PROVE everything or speak not at all? Many saints have pondered these same questions, and been blessed along the way.

I know for a fact, that when I encounter someone preaching something that is absolutely contrary to the basic Gospel message, constantly accusing me of being blind and or stupid (in so many words), they become a real pain in the butt. That's a thorn in the flesh as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

You kinda remind me of doubting Thomas. ;) I'm not saying that's a bad thing, as there are benefits to being sceptical, but I do want you to know that I'm not saying I know for sure what Paul's thorn was. I just enjoy studying the Word of God and considering other possibilites for some of these things we don't have an exact answer on. Not only do we get to delve into some of the OT verses, but we can actually gain insight we hadn't had before. Do we have to PROVE everything or speak not at all? Many saints have pondered these same questions, and been blessed along the way.

I know for a fact, that when I encounter someone preaching something that is absolutely contrary to the basic Gospel message, constantly accusing me of being blind and or stupid (in so many words), they become a real pain in the butt. That's a thorn in the flesh as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want you to misunderstand. I respect and appreciate your opinions on the passage. But just as you have an opinion about it, so do I. I'm not ruling your's out completely, and I surely don't know the answer for sure myself. I'm just sharing why I prefer the opinion I have and how the evidence suggests a more likely meaning of what Paul's thorn and messenger is.

And let me assure you I know very, very well how resistance to the truths of the Bible, the things that we know are true, can be a thorn in the flesh in and out of my home. But Paul seems to be speaking of a specific and persistent thorn. The nature and language of his plea seems to resist the idea of a specific and persistent demonic persecution. Maybe the consequences of a specific persecution he has endured, but not the persecution itself. That's just where the weight of evidence for me falls.

For me 'thorns and thistles' in the Bible speaks more to the things we struggle with in ourselves, not the people and circumstances that bring them. This is what I was referring to when I mentioned 'thorns' having different meanings in scripture. Obviously, the thorns in Numbers 33 is the painful influence and consequences of disobedient people being among the people of God. But 'thorns' in the NT means the thorns and thistles of men's hearts. Messengers of satan bring both for sure--through people and circumstances. But the NT meaning of 'thorns' is more personal than the OT's...as Paul seems to be suggesting his 'thorn' is.

So there it is, the belly button of my opinion. We all have one, but I suppose for most of us they're best kept covered up, lol.

God bless.

 

[smaller]

Re: "Thorn in the Flesh"

For me 'thorns and thistles' in the Bible speaks more to the things we struggle with in ourselves, not the people and circumstances that bring them.

Giving great credit where credit is due, your statement is TRUE, BRILLIANT and scripturally accurate to boot!

Yes, thorns and thistles are analogous to internal tempations, demonically inspired, which Paul assuredly had just like we 'all' do.

When Adam was deemed to til the soil and produce same, it was not speaking of physical weeds, but 'internal ones' in his own DUST BODY.

enjoy!!!!!

smaller

 

[MarkT]

If Paul had meant a person or people he would have said 'him' or 'them', not 'it'. So it seems to me that Paul is referring to a physical problem which is keeping him from being too elated. Satan afflicted Job with sores and boils. So I agree with Free. Paul is talking about a condition he is suffering from which was given him in the flesh. This was to remind Paul that Satan is the ruler of this world, the world of the flesh, and that Satan can knock Paul down. So Paul speaks of his weakness, and he says he is content with being weak.