Paul's "thorn in the flesh"

[BornAgain]

I did a little research on the scriptures quoted....

Gal 4:15 KJV

Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The manifestation of feeling toward him was such that he testified, if it had been in their power, they would have plucked out their eyes and given them to him. The Galatians were of the same nation as the French, noted for their excitability and intensity of feeling. Such people are liable to run from one extreme to another. So they had run to the extreme of denying that Paul was an apostle sent by Jesus.—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

Gal 6:11 KJV

Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.

At this point the apostle, who usually employed an amanuensis for the writing of his epistles Rom 16:23, and had doubtless done so in the case of this epistle, also took the pen in hand to authenticate the epistle 1 Cor 16:21, Col 4:18 2 Thess 3:17 and write the concluding words. [This led him to write larger characters than his amanuensis had employed; the size of the letters would have somewhat the effect of bold-face type in a modern book, and since Paul himself called attention to it, it would impress not only the one person who might be reading the epistle to a congregation, but the listeners also. Precisely how far he continued to use the large characters we have no certain means of ascertaining, but probably to the close.]—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

These are just commentaries I ran across, not biblical but a man's interpretation.

 

[eddif]

Ya'll behave. LOL

John 1:14-17
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace amd truth.

So Word changed into a physical birth, fullfillment of prophecy etc. Word can change / be: physical, social, mind, soul, creation etc. (use your own favorite words to describe what is going on).

The metaphysical has at least 2 components: the information beyond the physical and the physical.

I would think a thorn in the side could wind up fitting a lot of scripture. Just to talk of physical thorns leaves something lacking IMHO.

Romans 1:19-20
19 because that whidch maybe known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen. being understood by the things that are made, even hiss eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

So if we are without excuse, we should be thinking (asking for wisdom).
Got to wonder about the goads Paul was kicking against (oh sorry; another subject).

Job actually had a leap of understanding as he leaped from hearing to seeing (more cranial nerves involved in seeing than hearing).

Job 42:5-6
5 I have heard of of thee by the hearing of the ear; but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

Without looking toward higher order things of God we miss the grace and mercy that came by Jesus Christ (the abundance of grace and mercy evidently were not present in the law---although you can see some grace and mercy in the law).

As we look at the physical, there are great things to be seen beyond the physical. Of course I am a feller that sees casting crowns before the throne in the total physical and the metaphysical (thanks God, life experience and others).

eddif

 

[Eugene]

Paul's thorns were many as pertaining to both physical and spiritual. He was beaten, imprisoned, shipwrecked, and stoned. He was in danger of his own countrymen, he hungered, and yet he said all these things were for the furtherance of the gospel. When he was weak he became strong.

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

What else might he benefit in these things? Romans 8:17 tells us that all children of God are heirs of Him, but there is more. If we suffer or endure we can also be joint heirs. Timothy 2:12 confirms that: "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him . .

Paul takes this further in 2 Timothy 4:7-8. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

If you go into Revelation Chapters Two and Three there are only two of the seven conditions of the church that have crowns; one representing those full over-comers that have died in Christ and the other of those remaining alive until Jesus comes for them in the air; a worthy quest indeed.

 

[eddif]

I streached and supported the streaching of things from one level to another, but there may have been one thorn that was for Paul's personal control. There are many things going on in life. We complete the sufferings of Jesus.
++++++++++

"If you go into Revelation Chapters Two and Three there are only two of the seven conditions of the church that have crowns; one representing those full over-comers that have died in Christ and the other of those remaining alive until Jesus comes for them in the air; a worthy quest indeed."

When you go to the 24 elders bowing before the throne in Revelation 4 I think they qualify. We speak of our being made in the image of God and Jesus being in our hearts. Our 24 ribs bow before the hidden man of the heart. Ribs have a crown that transfers to the sternum through cartilage strands (breastbone examination is interesting). Seeing his star in the sky does not make the star Jesus. Seeing symbolism in us does not make us the ultimate reality. However, all this gets off the thorn, but does support the looking for deeper meaning of the thorn.

Thank you Jesus for the reality of your death for our sins.

eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

the eyes, that's a good thought. it's speculative, but still a good thought. i had never considered that before. but i still think it is spiritual. if it were the eyes, why not just say it?

Because ultimately Paul's physical ability to see well was not important to God's purpose. It's a physical ailment of course, but it can also be spiritual to those who are misled. Though as Christians we now would not consider the handicapped personally cursed by God (Mitspa notwithstanding), at that time Satan would have been pointing people to Paul's infirmity as proof that Paul was not favored by God, so therefore Paul's teaching must be incorrect. It is perfectly human for Paul to have wanted his sight healed, but God knew that the worldly infirmity kept Paul humble for heavenly purposes.

Consider Samson, though blind and in shackles, giving his life in using his God given strength to bring down the pagan Philistine temple.

Now consider Paul, near blind and in shackles, giving his life by using his gift of explaining God's Grace to establish the Gospel among gentiles, which would eventually bring down pagan Rome.

Finally, you have the irony of Saul/Paul persecuting Christianity because he believed he could see God's truth, then being blinded on the road to Damascus, and, with his physical sight permanently dimmed, being given the greater gift of spiritually seeing the truth of Jesus' Gospel. It demonstrates that the spiritual aspect of 'I was blind but now I see' far outweighs any physical aspect of 'I could see but now I'm blind'.

 

[eddif]

Ezra 3:12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy.

The second rebuilt temple was not quite as grand as Solomons temple, but Ezra's temple was the one Jesus attended.

Paul was probably grand before he was blinded, but the more humble Paul, with restored sight and filled with the Holly Spirit) was the one who wrote and did the work we often quote.

Sometimes we are brought down a knotch, but is the second state a little more likely to have Jesus in us?

There is not enough exact scripture to prove these speculations, but it does seem to fit.

eddif

 

[ezra]

Paul's thorns were many as pertaining to both physical and spiritual. He was beaten, imprisoned, shipwrecked, and stoned. He was in danger of his own countrymen, he hungered, and yet he said all these things were for the furtherance of the gospel. When he was weak he became strong.

Acts 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

What else might he benefit in these things? Romans 8:17 tells us that all children of God are heirs of Him, but there is more. If we suffer or endure we can also be joint heirs. Timothy 2:12 confirms that: "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him . .

Paul takes this further in 2 Timothy 4:7-8. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

If you go into Revelation Chapters Two and Three there are only two of the seven conditions of the church that have crowns; one representing those full over-comers that have died in Christ and the other of those remaining alive until Jesus comes for them in the air; a worthy quest indeed.

this i can agree with no doubt it was physical and spiritual...... my goodness look what he went through.. ship wrecked stoned left for dead.. hated for telling the truth.. he was a spirit filled man.. but even that does not keep you from pain ... or even wondering what next ..yes GOD gave him the divine power to endure. like the old song through it all ive learned to trust his name. he didnt become the apostle paul we know today over night.. one day at a time he learned....

 

[Mitspa]

Because ultimately Paul's physical ability to see well was not important to God's purpose. It's a physical ailment of course, but it can also be spiritual to those who are misled. Though as Christians we now would not consider the handicapped personally cursed by God (Mitspa notwithstanding), at that time Satan would have been pointing people to Paul's infirmity as proof that Paul was not favored by God, so therefore Paul's teaching must be incorrect. It is perfectly human for Paul to have wanted his sight healed, but God knew that the worldly infirmity kept Paul humble for heavenly purposes.

Consider Samson, though blind and in shackles, giving his life in using his God given strength to bring down the pagan Philistine temple.

Now consider Paul, near blind and in shackles, giving his life by using his gift of explaining God's Grace to establish the Gospel among gentiles, which would eventually bring down pagan Rome.

Finally, you have the irony of Saul/Paul persecuting Christianity because he believed he could see God's truth, then being blinded on the road to Damascus, and, with his physical sight permanently dimmed, being given the greater gift of spiritually seeing the truth of Jesus' Gospel. It demonstrates that the spiritual aspect of 'I was blind but now I see' far outweighs any physical aspect of 'I could see but now I'm blind'.

Sounds like you want it both ways? I do not, nor does anyone alive now, know the exact imfirmity of Paul? We can say for sure that it was demonic in nature and that it brought a weakness to Paul that the Lord said He would use to make His grace greater opon Paul.

Now If a man with a eye problem or whatever? can demonstate the Power of The Holy Spirit, as Paul did! I doubt that many would turn away from the gospel he preached? What it might do is give some who are looking for a reason to doubt Gods goodness a physical reason to explain the unbelief they already have. Which is what happens everytime this subject is brought up! Those who have seen and know God and His power have no issue with Pauls Thorn. Those who look for a reason they do not and cannot live according to the scriptures and promises of God! "say look! Jesus didnt really heal by His Stripes"

The reason most dont believe in healing? Is because they do not really believe the gospel. If they did? they would understand that He paid the price for it all!

 

[Deborah13]

In the OT the "thorn in the side" refers to pagan people. They would be a thorn in the side of the Hebrew people and would "vex" them, rather like Paul's buffeting. We know that "infirmity" simply means weakness and can be caused by any number of things.
Taking the below verses into consideration I find it likely that Paul's thorn was persecution and all that goes with it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

 

[Mitspa]

In the OT the "thorn in the side" refers to pagan people. They would be a thorn in the side of the Hebrew people and would "vex" them, rather like Paul's buffeting. We know that "infirmity" simply means weakness and can be caused by any number of things.
Taking the below verses into consideration I find it likely that Paul's thorn was persecution and all that goes with it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Hey Deb13 Been looking for you!
I thought about trying to explain your point, but you did it so much better than I could have!
If one looks to the scriptures, and not tradition or an excuse for unbelief, then your point is clear and must be considered as the most biblically sound.

God Bless

 

[ezra]

In the OT the "thorn in the side" refers to pagan people. They would be a thorn in the side of the Hebrew people and would "vex" them, rather like Paul's buffeting. We know that "infirmity" simply means weakness and can be caused by any number of things.
Taking the below verses into consideration I find it likely that Paul's thorn was persecution and all that goes with it.
2 Corinthians 12:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

that sums it up..that is more or less what i said in a earlier post

 

[Eugene]

Finally, you have the irony of Saul/Paul persecuting Christianity because he believed he could see God's truth, then being blinded on the road to Damascus, and, with his physical sight permanently dimmed, being given the greater gift of spiritually seeing the truth of Jesus' Gospel. It demonstrates that the spiritual aspect of 'I was blind but now I see' far outweighs any physical aspect of 'I could see but now I'm blind'.

I appreciate the above insight you have on this Sinthesis. Not assured of this being the same frame of thought but the very ministration of death in its sentence directed me to Christ. We read of Paul in Acts 9:16, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Philippians 1:12 But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[eddif]

I wonder that myself...sometimes I think it is a reminder of our sin and it is a constant reminder of our sinful nature. My sin reminds me as a thorn in the flesh and a constant reminder to repent. I did find this scripture that may shed some light...

2 Corinthians 12:7 (KJV)
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul realized in his fleshly weakness that he might be exalted above measure, uplifted with pride himself. The same feeling is expressed in the following: "I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage; lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected." 1 Cor 9:27. He felt that the very greatness of the blessings and the honors entrusted to him might excite a pride that would be his ruin.

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh,—God provided against the danger by permitting Satan to give him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble. That the affliction was bodily seems evident from the words "in the flesh"—an expression that does not indicate the principle of evil still in him, as some think, nor yet his mind or spirit, as others, but his physical being alone.

It was something personal, affecting him individually, and not as an apostle; causing him acute pain and shame. That the affliction was humiliating and loathsome is evident from the following reference to it: "Ye know that because of an infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you the first time: and that which was a temptation to you in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but ye received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus." Gal 4:13-14.

The term for rejected is very strong, literally "spat out," as the marginal reading. Its effect was to excite the scorn and aversion of the beholder, so that it supplied a severe test of the generosity of the Galatians who had witnessed Paul's abject condition under its infliction. The precise nature of the malady has been concealed perhaps that all afflicted ones may be encouraged and helped by Paul's unnamed, yet painful, experience.

a messenger of Satan—In God's government of his people and of the world, Satan is sometimes permitted to afflict bodily suffering upon men. Job 2:7, Luke 13:16.

to buffet me, Buffet seems to carry the idea that the affliction was outward, visible, and such as would have a tendency to prejudice his hearers against him, and so against his ministry. This removes the affliction, whatever it was, from the sphere of the mind, where some expositors would place it, and locates it in the body.

that I should not be exalted overmuch.—This indicates that bodily suffering is sometimes allowed to keep the fleshly impulses down to promote the spiritual well-being of the individual.
—Gospel Advocate Commentaries

I really appreciate your comments.

As a feller from Mississippi my language jest ain't the same though. Please bar within me whiles I gits hit into my language LOL.

If a person gets to running the pew backs and swinging from the chandelier too, often, when he begins to understand scripture (revelation) or has someone healed when he prays for them etc.; then a little reminder to know who he is might be in order. (He has hidden His treasures in eathern vessels) might be in order (humble him down a bit--stub toe while running the pew backs). Also a person in High Church can get into pride while using too much Old King James language (same as running pew backs). We all face becoming too elated.

My comments are almost the very same as yours, IMHO, but just in more down home language. I have some experience in being toned down a little.

eddif

 

[Mitspa]

Again I say this with all due respect for you who suffer? The devil is a cruel monster!

But lets be clear, until one is as strong and mighty in deeds as Paul, I doubt God has allowed satan to buffet you?

Now we suffer for the gospel and truth that Christ has overcome satan, sin and sickness! I do not believe we are to suffer for our unbelief and then claim we are suffering for the gospel?

The Gospel, when understood, declares without question that we have been healed by the stripes of Christ! Now a couple reasons are given why some are sick and why some are not healed? All are because of a lack of knowledge or a lack of faith!

When the power of God rest upon us, as it did on Paul! we may need a thorn to weaken us, so that more grace can rest upon us!

But I think it is hard to accept that some have become so strong in the Power of God, that God needs to humble you?

I suggest that is pride and an excuse to be in unbelief.

 

[ezra]

Again I say this with all due respect for you who suffer? The devil is a cruel monster!

But lets be clear, until one is as strong and mighty in deeds as Paul, I doubt God has allowed satan to buffet you?

Now we suffer for the gospel and truth that Christ has overcome satan, sin and sickness! I do not believe we are to suffer for our unbelief and then claim we are suffering for the gospel?

The Gospel, when understood, declares without question that we have been healed by the stripes of Christ! Now a couple reasons are given why some are sick and why some are not healed? All are because of a lack of knowledge or a lack of faith!

When the power of God rest upon us, as it did on Paul! we may need a thorn to weaken us, so that more grace can rest upon us!

But I think it is hard to accept that some have become so strong in the Power of God, that God needs to humble you?

I suggest that is pride and an excuse to be in unbelief.

plz spare us .. paul was a man called out in due time empowered by the spirit. this did not make him 10 ft tall and bullet prof ...............he had human feelings just like the rest of us. anger sadness disgust..love etc every one of us has thorn in the flesh.. when paul called it a messenger of satan sent to buffet him. that is exactly what it was. the devil was not happy with what paul was preaching.. so he sent people to do his dirty work. while at the same time providing paul ways to spread the Gospel to other nations { gentiles} you seem to be on a feel good gospel. HIS GRACE is sufficient for any thing we go through.. we know this in our mind but not our heart.

 

[Mitspa]

plz spare us .. paul was a man called out in due time empowered by the spirit. this did not make him 10 ft tall and bullet prof ...............he had human feelings just like the rest of us. anger sadness disgust..love etc every one of us has thorn in the flesh.. when paul called it a messenger of satan sent to buffet him. that is exactly what it was. the devil was not happy with what paul was preaching.. so he sent people to do his dirty work. while at the same time providing paul ways to spread the Gospel to other nations { gentiles} you seem to be on a feel good gospel. HIS GRACE is sufficient for any thing we go through.. we know this in our mind but not our heart.

i think you missed my point? Paul was stoned and beaten to death more than once! sounds kinda above bullets?
He was taken to heaven and shown all mysterys! The sweat from his brow could heal the sick and cast out devils! He used satan to correct others!
And yes he was a man that needed the grace of God!

My point was and is that it is pride to compare the power of God on Paul to ourselves, and then try to use his thorn as some religious badge of humility?

Its more likely, that some are just using this passage to justify unbelief? For by His Stripes, we are healed! This is as much a part of the gospel as forgivness, peace etc.. To reject the truth and then look for a biblical excuse to be in unbelief? I doubt any of us on this forum, need for Pauls Thorn, to make us weak?
And also those who think they have been given this thorn? Why go to the doctor or take medicine? why get out of Gods will? Why not pray for more things to make you humble?

No! I need healing! and Gods Goodness! I have plenty of weaknesses for Gods Grace to rest upon!

I think many miss the whole point that is being made?
There is things about God that a weak man can learn that a strong man can never learn!

 

[ezra]

The sweat from his brow could heal the sick

care to show scripture to back that up. paul did no healing God worked through him

 

[Mitspa]

care to show scripture to back that up. paul did no healing God worked through him

I think any honest person knows that I made no claim that Paul as a man, did anything! He was the Apostle of Christ Jesus! Everboby should understand that?

I will let you look up the scripture, I think all know and understand the scripture and the point I was making.

 

[reba]

If a person gets to running the pew backs and swinging from the chandelier too, often, when he begins to understand scripture (revelation) or has someone healed when he prays for them etc.; then a little reminder to know who he is might be in order. (He has hidden His treasures in eathern vessels) might be in order (humble him down a bit--stub toe while running the pew backs). Also a person in High Church can get into pride while using too much Old King James language (same as running pew backs). We all face becoming too elated.

WOW you know the same 'church ' people i do :crazy .... back to topic

 

[ezra]

I think any honest person knows that I made no claim that Paul as a man, did anything! He was the Apostle of Christ Jesus! Everboby should understand that?

I will let you look up the scripture, I think all know and understand the scripture and the point I was making.

you made the claim about folks being healed from the sweat of his brow..know i ask for scripture

I think all know and understand the scripture and the point I was making.

you think??????????????