Paul's thorn in the flesh

[Fyre]

Hi there flame, welcome to the forum. It's always good to see a lady who loves the Lord and His Word. Where is Mount Sion? I appreciate your discipline of study and presentation on the forum. I too started in August and so far have enjoyed this experience. I hope you will too.

Thanks for the welcome Chopper! I Love the name by the way! It was actually my daughters favorite little T Rex's name So your a Newby too?

I'm not feeling so alone now lol

Mount Sion is heavenly Jerusalem (we are come to). So I usually just put that down on forums as my location. Since, They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

I hear you, and I love the same in all my brothers and sisters because I know I benefit from their workmanship in the word too. This type of topic, things pertaining to Satan, temptations, and the trying of our faith is something I have been very much interested in myself. And I just try to let the scriptures (from various places) when comparing them (from place to place) form whatever comes up in accord. I just started seeing various connections in accord with one another and thought, "wow, these are so cool"! The patient of Job is that which was worked through tribulation (as shown in the NT) and how permission to sift is shown in both OT and NT and these are for the trying of our faith (Christ has prayed for) as we are kept through the power of God ourselves.

Glad I joined, Everyone is super nice here! I'm so not used to "a nice people" forum (lol). What a pleasant surprise! Praise the LORD.

God bless you Chopper, thanks for your kind words

 

[Brother Mike]

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Permission granted here

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So it looks like the same permission is being granted here also

Very good........ You noticed Job's wife. "Curse God and die" I am impressed with that.

I think we have determined that Satan is the thief, the depressor, the murderer, the lier. Certainly we see the Work of the enemy in the lives of all you mentioned.

So here is my problem............. We have the enemy that murdered Job's Children, and stopped Paul cold from getting his message out. My problem is this "Permission" issue and it goes back to the start of the post of God allowing or God granting permission to the devil to teach patience or perfect something else in a believer.

Paul turns someone over for the destruction of the flesh, that their spirit may be saved............... Being destroyed or being taught something? Paul used his own enemy to destroy a believer not teach them that at least they might repent before dying and saving the spirit of the man. That is not teaching, that is attempting to save from Hell.

So, Paul was attacked and Job lost his ox, children, sheep, and was made sick.

That is my issue..... These are not teaching tools. These are destroying tools. Tools of hell.

Trying of faith works patience, which produces hope. No faith to start with, then it ends in disaster.

Deu 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.

Deu 28:31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
Deu 28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.

In Job's case, the full curse of the law came. It was until thou be destroyed, not taught something.

So, is Jesus just making a statement of fact?

Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Permission granted here

Or Jesus just see something in the realm of the spirit like Paul who knew it was a messenger of Satan and stating fact. I really don't see permission here. Jesus said Satan desires you, which is just fact.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

So it looks like the same permission is being granted here also

Really? there is no permissive Verb here in Hebrew. In fact most places in Hebrew should have been translated to English in God will allow, or turn his back instead of God causing. In this case we don't have a Passive or permissive verb anyway, just a statement of fact.

Behold just means pay attention and look.

What if we read it this way.......

We have a two spiritual beings. God and Satan. Satan has a place and a theme he has drummed in Job's head for a few years. The theme was......... "Curse God and you die." Nothing scriptural about it, nothing that says cursing God and you die anywhere in scripture, just a fear Satan put in Job.

Job acts on this fear, Job's kids might have cursed God at their parties and Job is afraid God might harm his children. Through fear of loss, job sacrifices for his kids. So Job is acting on Satan's fear and directions. The only thing that happened to Job was those things he feared. (Job 3:25) Just those things, nothing else.

Satan goes into the throne room with the angels of the Lord. God has been watching the whole time of course and ask Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?" Satan spews a bunch of garbage and a song and dance. (There is no truth in the devil, so God is certainly not caring what comes out of the devils mouth) John 8:44

God has already seen Job believe Satan, already seen Job act on those fears of loosing his children, already seen Job respond to what Satan wanted.

Satan says........."God you put your hands on Job, you do it and Job will curse you to your face."

See what Satan asked God to do. Satan told God to get Job, for God to Hurt his man that served him. This is just how stupid the Devil is, trying to tempt God to do something against His Word. God said he does not even take pleasure in the death of the Wicked, let alone murder the Children of someone that obeyed him.

God says, "Pay attention dummy, all that Job has is in your power, just don't touch job personally (Kill Him)"

God's response to Satan was not giving any permission, it was God's response to Satan when Satan asked God to harm Job.

Job gave the devil a place because it's written 58 times to fear not, 48 times to be not afraid. You can't have fear in your life and expect the devil not to get a place.

Job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

There was no allowing or permission here.

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst (Continue to entice) me against him, to destroy him without cause.

If God was trying to teach Job something or use the devil to teach Job, God certainly would not have told the devil that harming job was vain, without cause, pointless.

Job was patience but Job blamed God, and cried like someone with no faith. Job never even asked God to help or deliver him. According to Job, God was to blame. Elihu said this and this sets the record straight as Elihu was the only one who spoke correctly about Job being the youngest there.

(Elihu)
Job 34:9 For he hath said, (Job) It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God. (Great comment there Job!!!!)

Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts?

Job 34:10 Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.

God had nothing to do with the death of Job's kids, nothing to do with Satan getting Job, nothing to gain by allowing Satan to harm Job. Job did it because Job served God through fear of harm not love or trust in God. Satan got a place, and God will never break his word to prevent justice. If God says 58 times to fear not, we best listen to what God has to say about fear.

Paul was different........ Paul had the answer already, did not need humbled but needed to learn not to go in on his own ability and vast knowledge to accomplish things. Hence Paul said I would rather be weak and unsure for the Anointing sake (Christ) than go in thinking I got it handled.

Im actually having trouble posting here, I cant get the font larger, and I am very familiar with posting on various forums, but when I highlight and click a larger number font its just not sticking here.

Sorry about that.

Your post is very refreshing and as small as it seems I am thankful for you. Welcome to the forums and your great insight into these subjects because these subjects deal with the Character and Nature of our Father in Heaven. Thank you.

Mike.

 

[Fyre]

Hey thanks Mike, I sure don't know, just look for like comparisons and they seem to fit according to the same pattern. That afflictions work for us not against us. That tribulation is that very thing which worketh the patience we have need of. That we should not fear anything we would suffer (even as we are appointed to suffer).

Just like the lying spirit in Kings, For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. The lying spirit come forward to go out by the LORD was permitted. If you look under the word "permit" its the same, "allow"

The verb epitrepō in 1Cr 16:7 and Hebrews 6:3 is inclusive of ...to permit, and allow,

Likewise with the verb "suffer" eaō (as in) God is faithful, He will not suffer you "to be" tempted)

1) to allow, permit, let
2) to allow one to do as he wishes, not to restrain, to let alone
3) to give up, let go, leave

Point being is that Jesus knew Satan's desire was to sift Simon, Jesus letting Simon know this and he didn't say, but I said, "no". He said, BUT I have prayed for you that your faith fail not (the same faith Jesus had just prayed that would not fail Simon). To me that indicates that Satans desire to sift Simon as wheat was permitted. Makes sense in that it was Peter who said temptations themselves have come for the trying of your faith. Even as James says My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations. And we know God isn't the tempter, but we even know Jesus was driven of the Spirit out to actually "be tempted" (and of Satan). Jesus being called a "tried stone" and we also as lively stones (whose faith is likewise tried) and just how this is so is expressed in those verses.

In each place Satan wanted to touch (to tempt Job) because a hedge was placed about him, and the evil day come and the hedge was dropped and permission was granted to touch there was always a "thus far and no further" attached to it, as it says God is faithful and will NOT allow you to be tempted (and that of Satan) above that which ye are able. Which shows me God is above all that comes to us and He is in control of that temptation, and will not allow for above what any of us are able. Just as the same is shown in Job. This (but not this) this (but not this). Touch his flesh (but spare his life) touch all that he hath (but lay not a hand on him). To me it shows there are limits set which seem very much in accord with God being faithful in such times shown in the NT

Heres being tried here also

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Jesus says fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer (and what the devil would do to some of you).

Paul (who believed to die was gain) said...

Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Even as Jesus told Paul,

1Thes 3:3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.


I just see the wiles of the devil as are shown in the OT the same, otherwise why be told to put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Theres an evil day

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Satans devices are also shown in Job, the temptation he sought to gain through Jobs affliction is shown. That Job would curse God because of it. And I agree that our fight is not against flesh and blood, even though the whole world lieth in the power of the wicked one and Satan can take captive and utilize flesh and blood (even as He did Jobs wife) to gain a foothold to Job through her. Afterall Satan used Eve to gain a foothold to Adam, if we were to look at it that way. Its not a fight against flesh and blood, but of spiritual wickedness.

I never feared losing my own daughter, but that come upon me several years ago, followed by a stroke, followed by something my husband done, like a bunch of incidents one after the other that had come upon me at that time. I could also have said, what I most feared had come upon me, but I honestly never feared those things but those things just come and became just that at the time.

Like if your expecting your wife and children to be home at 6 PM, and they are all in the same car (as Jobs children were all in the same house) but an 18 wheeler crushes the vehicle before they come home and none of them make it home alive, you might say the same (at that time). One swipe (type incident). Which is ironic that those sorts of things oftentimes happen in threes too. Not always, but I have noticed that.

Thanks for the welcome Mike, Im usually not so good at discussion, I usually just try to show where scripture confirms (here and there) on a thing and continue to build upon what does confirm and let the pictures grow as more comes in. I am having a difficult time posting, Either I have too many characters or my font is changed to super tiny here. I can remedy that by copy pasting from my forum (where I keep my studies) onto another forum (hit preview there) and then copy paste, but then it ends up being too many characters (here). I cant seem to win here lol

God richly bless you

 

[JohnD]

I don't recall where but I heard Paul's thorn in the flesh was poor eye sight. In an epistle he wrote the closing salutation himself and commented on what big letters he wrote with. I have heard commentator says he was referring to the lengthy epistles he wrote and others say that they believe he had an eye disease (possibly since his blindness at his conversion)... I say he had a thorn in the flesh he would have explained if he felt it necessary. Otherwise it was personal.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 verse 7 it is stated "A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Over the years I have heard many expositors say that his thorn was some illness or infirmity. My belief is that the "thorn" was a demon, based on the word "messenger" which, to my knowledge, always means a being or person. It makes sense to me especially when I read Chapter 11 verses 16 through 29. I'm curious what others believe and why.

Hi Chopper, let me give you my take on this.
Numbers 33:55;
"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live".

What I see here is Paul having trouble everywhere he goes to spread the Gospel.
The enemy is always there causing trouble and trying to stop him.
Paul kept asking God to get rid of this thorn in his side until he heard God tell him that His grace is sufficient.

Whenever we do things to serve God and spread the Gospel, we come across things we can call a thorn in our side.
As soldiers for Christ, we march on regardless of what we face, knowing in the end we will have victory.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper, let me give you my take on this.
Numbers 33:55;
"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live".

What I see here is Paul having trouble everywhere he goes to spread the Gospel.
The enemy is always there causing trouble and trying to stop him.
Paul kept asking God to get rid of this thorn in his side until he heard God tell him that His grace is sufficient.

Whenever we do things to serve God and spread the Gospel, we come across things we can call a thorn in our side.
As soldiers for Christ, we march on regardless of what we face, knowing in the end we will have victory.

Very good my Brother. Other than a demon, I would believe that it is as you say. Bottom line is, It is a being, whether human of spiritual (evil). My only question is the word messenger is singular, if that matters.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Very good my Brother. Other than a demon, I would believe that it is as you say. Bottom line is, It is a being, whether human of spiritual (evil). My only question is the word messenger is singular, if that matters.

I think it is spiritual.
Paul continues to talk about the false apostles as he did prior to this in chapter eleven.
They were polluting the church.
This seems to me it is spiritual.
This singular messenger could be called a spirit pushing false doctrine.

 

[Deborah13]

Very good my Brother. Other than a demon, I would believe that it is as you say. Bottom line is, It is a being, whether human of spiritual (evil). My only question is the word messenger is singular, if that matters.

I think it could be a combination of what both you and allenwynne have said. I do believe it was a messenger of satan, literally and I believe it was there to do what allenwynne said.
You remember when Acts 16, the woman with a spirit was following Paul and the others around? I believe that this messanger of satan was busy using people to bring persecution on Paul. There where times when he had to flee for his life.
This woman was already possessed by a spirit, how easy to use one such as this?
Or to start the problems when Paul was arrested in Jerusalem.

 

[Chopper]

I think it could be a combination of what both you and allenwynne have said. I do believe it was a messenger of satan, literally and I believe it was there to do what allenwynne said.
You remember when Acts 16, the woman with a spirit was following Paul and the others around? I believe that this messanger of satan was busy using people to bring persecution on Paul. There where times when he had to flee for his life.
This woman was already possessed by a spirit, how easy to use one such as this?
Or to start the problems when Paul was arrested in Jerusalem.

A very good point, thanks for sharing.

 

[ezra]

Hi Chopper, let me give you my take on this.
Numbers 33:55;
"But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land, those you allow to remain will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides. They will give you trouble in the land where you will live".

What I see here is Paul having trouble everywhere he goes to spread the Gospel.
The enemy is always there causing trouble and trying to stop him.
Paul kept asking God to get rid of this thorn in his side until he heard God tell him that His grace is sufficient.

Whenever we do things to serve God and spread the Gospel, we come across things we can call a thorn in our side.
As soldiers for Christ, we march on regardless of what we face, knowing in the end we will have victory.

that is exactly how i see it. paul had more enemies , read how much trouble he had who wouldn't be praying asking God to remove... amen amen :amen

 

[Chopper]

that is exactly how i see it. paul had more enemies , read how much trouble he had who wouldn't be praying asking God to remove... amen amen :amen

Thank's ezra for jumping in, I appreciate your point of view. I guess that's where we'll leave it. A combination of thorn's with people names and a demon, perhaps. The only reason I'm leaving a demon in there is, many theologians feel it was a satanic thorn.

 

[Sinthesis]

In 2 Corinthians Chapter 12 verse 7 it is stated "A thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan." Over the years I have heard many expositors say that his thorn was some illness or infirmity. My belief is that the "thorn" was a demon, based on the word "messenger" which, to my knowledge, always means a being or person. It makes sense to me especially when I read Chapter 11 verses 16 through 29. I'm curious what others believe and why.

I believe a messenger can be anyone/anything which conveys a message. Ironically, this expands the idea of angels and demons beyond the supernatural, into our natural world. Others have pointed out Numbers 33:55. I believe the similar language is meant to establish a parallel, whereby a remnant of Paul's old way of thinking supplies a 'spiritual' significance to his poor physical eyesight, which plagues him and others with an illusion of his infirmity. Yet ultimately Paul's physical ability to see well was not important to God's purpose. It's a physical ailment of course, but it can also be spiritual to those who are misled. Though as Christians we now would not consider the handicapped personally cursed by God, at that time Satan would have been pointing people to Paul's infirmity as proof that Paul was not favored by God, so therefore Paul's teaching must be incorrect. It is perfectly human for Paul to have wanted his sight healed, but God knew that the worldly infirmity kept Paul humble for heavenly purposes.

Consider Samson, though blind and in shackles, giving his life in using his God given strength to bring down the pagan Philistine temple.

Now consider Paul, near blind and in shackles, giving his life by using his gift of explaining God's Grace to establish the Gospel among gentiles, which would eventually bring down pagan Rome.

Finally, you have the irony of Saul/Paul persecuting Christianity because he believed he could see God's truth, then being blinded on the road to Damascus, and, with his physical sight permanently dimmed, being given the greater gift of spiritually seeing the truth of Jesus' Gospel. It demonstrates that the spiritual aspect of 'I was blind but now I see' far outweighs any physical aspect of 'I could see but now I'm blind'.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sounds good Sinthesis, but all assumptions.
I say that because you said a physical ailment "of course".
That indicates that you are so sure of yourself.
I used Numbers 33:55 to show my point.
What scripture can you use to show your point?
Truthfully, I am open to change my mind if you can show me scripture that you can prove justifies your position.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sounds good Sinthesis, but all assumptions.
I say that because you said a physical ailment "of course".
That indicates that you are so sure of yourself.
I used Numbers 33:55 to show my point.
What scripture can you use to show your point?
Truthfully, I am open to change my mind if you can show me scripture that you can prove justifies your position.

Yes, all assumptions. But reasonable assumptions. I don't really want to change your mind, rather just give you another way of looking at the scripture. One assumption is that Paul's vision is related to his thorn in the flesh. Paul's poor eyesight is a physical ailment 'of course', rather than spiritual. However, Satan supplies a spiritual interpretation of that infirmity; not to Paul himself, but to those to whom Paul was sent. Paul bears this burden so that the stigma attached to it by Satan will prevent his being glorified at the expense of the Gospel.
2Cr 12:7
¶
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

The thorn was given Paul to prevent his being exalted(passive subjunctive), meaning Paul would be the recipient of the exaltation. In the previous verse we have exalted defined: "lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me."

The danger here is that a magnificent charismatic physical presence in conjunction with the abundance of revelations would focus glory on Paul and detract from the Gospel of Christ. So Paul's image was tempered by near blindness. The mechanism by which this worked was provided by Satan in the form of prejudice against the disabled, which is still present in most cultures. Its obverse effect can be observed in the prosperity gospel seen today when a charismatic preacher focuses attention on himself and the empty promise of all the 'worldly blessings' he can flaunt, rather than sound biblical doctrine.

Paul bore other burdens to protect the integrity of the Gospel, but this was probably the heaviest. Being human, Paul naturally prayed for healing, yet was denied all three times because his poor vision was purposed to the glory of God.

 

[Chopper]

Years ago I did an indepth study of this word "messenger" I only remember a little of it. The word messenger always means a person, or being, not an ailment. The word Messenger in the Gk. is "aggelos" or angel. I have always felt that Pauls thorn was an angel of Satan to Buffet (punch in the, or under, the eye) him. So I think those two words are crucial to explain his thorn.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Generally speaking, when a word or phrase is used with a special meaning, it stays consistent throughout the Bible.
Paul was good with being consistent with Scripture.
Also, Paul healed people.
The Apostles healed people.
But he himself was unable to be healed?
If this were true, I would think this would be addressed instead of being left for us to speculate.

 

[Chopper]

Generally speaking, when a word or phrase is used with a special meaning, it stays consistent throughout the Bible.
Paul was good with being consistent with Scripture.
Also, Paul healed people.
The Apostles healed people.
But he himself was unable to be healed?
If this were true, I would think this would be addressed instead of being left for us to speculate.

I understand your point of view. I don't think we are supposed to speculate, that's why we have words to examine. I know that there are many interpretations of these verses and an angel from Satan is not the most believed but I believe, IMO, is the best according to the wording. When you go back one chapter, you see all the unusual difficulties Paul had to go through, and I think they were demon constructed.

 

[Chopper]

Allen, I found some of my old studies on Paul's thorn. It was from the book "Christ The Healer" by F.F. Bossworth. A famous man who was used greatly by Jesus to heal many people in America and in Africa. This book was used in churches, colleges, and Bible schools. This is from his book...."Paul definitely states what his thorn was. He says it was a messenger (Gk. Angelos) of Satan, or, as translated by others, the angel of the devil, Satan's angel. This Greek angelos appears 188 times in the Bible, and is translated "angel" 181 times, and "messenger" the other seven times. In all the 188 times in the entire Bible, it is in every case a person and not a thing - without a solitary exception. Hell was made for the devil and his angels (or messengers) and an angel or a messenger is always a person that one person sends to another, and never a desease."

I thought at the time, and still do, that Bosworth had a good argument against a desease or something like that.

 

[Andrew Mason]

One way to interpret this verse is by using a concordance with the word "thorn." It does not solve the riddle completely but one pattern emerges for consideration. Consider the following verses:

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell. - Numbers 33:55

know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you.- Joshua 23:13

Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” - Judges 2:3

In these OT passages, "thorns" was symbolic of unbelievers that would afflict believers. Using this line of thought, you could interpret Paul's usage of the phrase to be referring to persecutors of the Christian faith.

 

[Chopper]

One way to interpret this verse is by using a concordance with the word "thorn." It does not solve the riddle completely but one pattern emerges for consideration. Consider the following verses:

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell. - Numbers 33:55

know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you.- Joshua 23:13

Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” - Judges 2:3

In these OT passages, "thorns" was symbolic of unbelievers that would afflict believers. Using this line of thought, you could interpret Paul's usage of the phrase to be referring to persecutors of the Christian faith.

Your line of thinking is shared by others on this thread. That is a strong argument for a desease of some sort. Thank you for your post.