Paul's thorn in the flesh

[reba]

Why does Paul say a thorn in the flesh if it is spiritual ? Aint picking sides just asking.....

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Did you read Numbers 33:55?
They will become barbs in your eyes and thorns in your side.
Did the Israelites walk around with barbs in their eyes?

 

[reba]

yup... I have heard this about Paul's thorn ..

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man

His thorn was his wife.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

yup... I have heard this about Paul's thorn ..

Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man

His thorn was his wife.

And her name was Barb

 

[reba]

why dint i see that coming excellent

 

[Andrew Mason]

That is a strong argument for a desease of some sort.

I don't see a connection with disease based on the OT verses I cited, I just see a straight-forward connection with persecution. The verse does have integrity if that was Paul's inference. Doesn't mean it's THE interpretation, just sayin that it works.

 

[stovebolts]

One way to interpret this verse is by using a concordance with the word "thorn." It does not solve the riddle completely but one pattern emerges for consideration. Consider the following verses:

But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell. - Numbers 33:55

know for certain that the Lord your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the Lord your God has given you.- Joshua 23:13

Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’” - Judges 2:3

In these OT passages, "thorns" was symbolic of unbelievers that would afflict believers. Using this line of thought, you could interpret Paul's usage of the phrase to be referring to persecutors of the Christian faith.

I'm also of this mindset.
However, Chopper , if I'm reading you right, there's a spiritual side that you're looking at, and I thought of this.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now then, wouldn't those Jesus is speaking to be "Messengers" of Satan? Wouldn't this agree with what Andrew Mason posted above?

My next thought comes from I think 1st Timothy? Doesn't Paul say that Hymanius (sp) did him great harm?

In other words, why do all "messengers" have to be interpreted as "Angels", and why do some of these angels have to be "Fallen Angels"? For that matter, when is it appropriate to interpret angels as angelic beings and when is it appropriate to interpret angels as people delivering a message, either from God or from Satan?

 

[Chopper]

Why does Paul say a thorn in the flesh if it is spiritual ? Aint picking sides just asking.....

Hi Reba, always happy when you jump in. Paul's flesh is where Satan tried to stop him. You know how you feel when you don't feel well, not very spiritual, for some reason serving the Lord is not a top priority, getting well is. Back up one chapter and see all that Paul had to go through, those events all subjected his flesh in some way. The argument that it was the people who were persecuting Paul or a physical desease don't seem to me as valid because a real soldier of the cross know's how to deal with those types of every day situations. But prison is an awful reproach to deal with, "countless beatings", being stoned, all point to someone not to be trusted. Satan's messenger was behind it all, IMO.

 

[Chopper]

I'm also of this mindset.
However, Chopper , if I'm reading you right, there's a spiritual side that you're looking at, and I thought of this.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now then, wouldn't those Jesus is speaking to be "Messengers" of Satan? Wouldn't this agree with what Andrew Mason posted above?

My next thought comes from I think 1st Timothy? Doesn't Paul say that Hymanius (sp) did him great harm?

In other words, why do all "messengers" have to be interpreted as "Angels", and why do some of these angels have to be "Fallen Angels"? For that matter, when is it appropriate to interpret angels as angelic beings and when is it appropriate to interpret angels as people delivering a message, either from God or from Satan?

I hear what you are saying my friend, I have looked at all the "other choices". I just think that a better use of a concordance would be to look up the word "messenger" "Satan" and "buffet". By the way, the word buffit is an interesting word, it means to punch, hit, etc. repeatedly. If it was a desease, it would have to keep coming back, and back, and back. This may sound funny but when I first saw these verses, the first thought that came to my mind was a demon was attacking Paul on a number of occasions. It just makes more sense to me to believe it was a demon.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I hear what you are saying my friend, I have looked at all the "other choices". I just think that a better use of a concordance would be to look up the word "messenger" "Satan" and "buffet". By the way, the word buffit is an interesting word, it means to punch, hit, etc. repeatedly. If it was a desease, it would have to keep coming back, and back, and back. This may sound funny but when I first saw these verses, the first thought that came to my mind was a demon was attacking Paul on a number of occasions. It just makes more sense to me to believe it was a demon.

I don't think Paul was affected by demons.
Speak the Word of God and the devil must flee.
Paul had great power over demons as we all should.
Paul spoke of false apostles, "super apostles", and suddenly the Corinthian church was following them.
He talked of boasting of himself, as if he had to defend himself and the Gospel.
He spoke of the thorn given to him, and then again about the so called "super apostles", and then warnings to the church to test themselves against the truth.
I don't see it as being a person but as a single entity sent by satan to attack Paul's status among the Christians through false doctrine, especially from the Jews in Jerusalem.
There is an ongoing theme of these attacks throughout his letters.

 

[Chopper]

Why cant everything just be easy to understand. It would be a lot cooler.

You know honestly? like I said, when I first read these verses, I thought of Satan's demon going after Paul. That seemed easy for me. I have, most of the time, tried not to read into a verse of Scripture. Just a simple, what does it say? After all, I'm just a dumb sheep. I came from the ground, so that makes me a "dirt bag" and this dirt bag asks Jesus to help him understand the Scriptures. So, taking a simple approach to understanding the Scriptures makes me cool.

 

[reba]

Kiwidan.... what other book brings this much discussion? I truly believe the Scriptures were written to draw out the discussion. The laws of God given to Moses are simple do xyz do not do abc. not a lot of room for discussion .... Moving beyond that time and WOW...

 

[Chopper]

I don't Paul was affected by demons.
Speak the Word of God and the devil must flee.
Paul had great power over demons as we all should.
Paul spoke of false apostles, "super apostles", and suddenly the Corinthian church was following them.
He talked of boasting of himself, as if he had to defend himself and the Gospel.
He spoke of the thorn given to him, and then again about the so called "super apostles", and then warnings to the church to test themselves against the truth.
I don't see it as being a person but as a single entity sent by satan to attack Paul's status among the Christians through false doctrine, especially from the Jews in Jerusalem.
There is an ongoing theme of these attacks throughout his letters.

Allen, you say "I don't see it as being a person" when the word "messenger" always means a "person".

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay, the messenger was an agent of satan.
What did it do to Paul to cause him to call it a thorn in his side?

 

[Chopper]

Okay, the messenger was an agent of satan.
What did it do to Paul to cause him to call it a thorn in his side?

Imprisonments, beatings, five times 39 lashes, three times beaten with rod's, stoned, shipwrecked, etc. etc.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Imprisonments, beatings, five times 39 lashes, three times beaten with rod's, stoned, shipwrecked, etc. etc.

Right, so they were all done by different people, not one person.

 

[turnorburn]

Different people one spirit, one of Satan's angels, evil spirits can infect one person then go on to the next person then the next and the next and the next. Have you ever encountered a man/woman possessed by an evil spirit?

tob

 

[jonahmano]

I also believe it was the repeated persecutions instigated by Satan was the thorn in the flesh for Paul. We see there was no apostle persecuted so often as it was with Paul.

 

[Chopper]

I also believe it was the repeated persecutions instigated by Satan was the thorn in the flesh for Paul. We see there was no apostle persecuted so often as it was with Paul.

Yes jonahmano, good to hear from you. Instigated by Satan, carried about by his messenger demon.

 

[jonahmano]

Different people one spirit, one of Satan's angels, evil spirits can infect one person then go on to the next person then the next and the next and the next. Have you ever encountered a man/woman possessed by an evil spirit?

tob

I think the word "possess" is not fitting. How can a born-again believer be possessed (owned) by the devil. Instead it has to be under the influence of an evil spirit in some area of his personality.