Bible Study Paul's Thorn

[Deborah13]

Right.Satan can not do anything that God did not allow.

Do you believe that satan goes to the throne room where Jesus is to ask permission for all the bad things that happen to Christians? non-Christians?

 

[Kathi]

Do you believe that satan goes to the throne room where Jesus is to ask permission for all the bad things that happen to Christians? non-Christians?

I do think that Satan is still summoned by God and I think his visits are temporary.I think his visits are limited so there is no way that the purity of heaven is tainted.In Job 1:6 Satan stood before God.

 

[Deborah13]

I do think that Satan is still summoned by God and I think his visits are temporary.I think his visits are limited so there is no way that the purity of heaven is tainted.In Job 1:6 Satan stood before God.

OK, thanks.

 

[agua.]

Knowing what little i know, id have to say i have no idea on both accounts. What i do know is that the Word reveals that the enemy can get keys to our health, wealth, circumstances, and even the very lives of ours and our loved ones.

Would it be detrimental or beneficial to see either stance as a possibility without clinging to one as an absolute truth? Would it even matter?

It could be helpful for believers to know if they're being buffeted by an evil spirit when trouble comes because it would make it easier to accept it's not flesh and blood we're fighting and it could also give encouragement when we wonder why certain prayers seem unanswered imo. Aside from that it's jsut a discussion point.

 

[agua.]

Satan still visits the Throne Room and the text for this and your answer are found in the much disliked book of Job. Satan could do nothing God did not allow.

True Bill and I think that Yahweh allowed satan to sift Peter.

 

[Deborah13]

True Bill and I think that Yahweh allowed satan to sift Peter.

Is there any scriptures after the cross that teach you that?

 

[agua.]

Is there any scriptures after the cross that teach you that?

Are you asking are there any scriptures that show we may be sifted by satan after the Cross or if Peter was sifted ?

 

[Deborah13]

Are you asking are there any scriptures that show we may be sifted by satan after the Cross or if Peter was sifted ?

That satan has access to God's throne and must ask permission to do the things he does, after the cross.
I believe Peter was sifted, Jesus said satan asked then.

 

[agua.]

That satan has access to God's throne and must ask permission to do the things he does, after the cross.
I believe Peter was sifted, Jesus said satan asked then.

Ok. This thread is maybe an indication imo because Paul was a mighty man of faith and satan must have been given permission don't you think to buffet him ? ( regardless if the messenger is an evil spirit or physical disability ) Also I think we have other indications in Annanais and Sapphira and how we're told to turn unrepentant sinning Christians over to satan for "the destruction of the flesh" so that they will be saved. There isn't any scripture that shows satan asking permisssion aside from Job and Peter's sifting I think. I think satan still has access to Heaven until he's cast out according to Rev 12 ( if we accept this is concerning the trib period )

Rev 12:12 KJV Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Deborah13]

Ok. This thread is maybe an indication imo because Paul was a mighty man of faith and satan must have been given permission don't you think to buffet him ? ( regardless if the messenger is an evil spirit or physical disability ) Also I think we have other indications in Annanais and Sapphira and how we're told to turn unrepentant sinning Christians over to satan for "the destruction of the flesh" so that they will be saved. There isn't any scripture that shows satan asking permisssion aside from Job and Peter's sifting I think. I think satan still has access to Heaven until he's cast out according to Rev 12 ( if we accept this is concerning the trib period )

Rev 12:12 KJV Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

No I don't think the messenger any of those times satan had to ask permission.
I'm thinking of this scripture.
Rev 12:4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth; and the dragon did stand before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour;
Rev 12:5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;
Joh 12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'


Different eschatology.

 

[agua.]

No I don't think the messenger any of those times satan had to ask permission.
I'm thinking of this scripture.
Rev 12:4 and his tail doth draw the third of the stars of the heaven, and he did cast them to the earth; and the dragon did stand before the woman who is about to bring forth, that when she may bring forth, her child he may devour;
Rev 12:5 and she brought forth a male child, who is about to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, and caught away was her child unto God and His throne,
Rev 12:9 and the great dragon was cast forth--the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,' who is leading astray the whole world--he was cast forth to the earth, and his messengers were cast forth with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;

Joh 12:31 now is a judgment of this world, now shall the ruler of this world be cast forth;
Joh 12:32 and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'


Different eschatology.

I'm not sure what the Rev 12 scripture implies Deb in reference to this but the John !2 is def relevant. "now the ruler of this world be cast forth". Why do you suggest this means Satan no longer had access to Heaven ? I think this passage shows us that Jesus will provide ( and has provided ) the means for satan to be rejected by the ransom sacrifice.

Joh 12:27 KJV Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

I don't think it means that satan was cast out at that time but that because of Jesus ( for this cause came I unto this hour ) he has been dfeated and will be cast out.

 

[eddif]

Romans 1:19-20
We can learn from creation.
Messengers:
Virus contains a message that changes a healthy cell to another perverted use / purpose / job / other(?).

So, when we look at a fever do we see the physical (external) or the bad message inside the causative agent.

Luke 4: 38-39
Jesus rebuked a fever.

The messanger for fever was probably inside a living pathogen or viral thing. We have to look for the real source.

Was it Peter or satan?
Was it the serpent, or the evil one?

How do we separate ? Discern good and evil.

eddif

 

[JLB]

Romans 1:19-20
We can learn from creation.
Messengers:
Virus contains a message that changes a healthy cell to another perverted use / purpose / job / other(?).

So, when we look at a fever do we see the physical (external) or the bad message inside the causative agent.

Luke 4: 38-39
Jesus rebuked a fever.

The messanger for fever was probably inside a living pathogen or viral thing. We have to look for the real source.

Was it Peter or satan?
Was it the serpent, or the evil one?

How do we separate ? Discern good and evil.

eddif

By reason of use, having your senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

[JLB]

I'm not sure what the Rev 12 scripture implies Deb in reference to this but the John !2 is def relevant. "now the ruler of this world be cast forth". Why do you suggest this means Satan no longer had access to Heaven ? I think this passage shows us that Jesus will provide ( and has provided ) the means for satan to be rejected by the ransom sacrifice.

Joh 12:27 KJV Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

I don't think it means that satan was cast out at that time but that because of Jesus ( for this cause came I unto this hour ) he has been dfeated and will be cast out.

Satan does not have access to the highest heaven where God is seated upon His Throne.

Satan could not last for a second in the literal presence of the glory of God.


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

True Bill and I think that Yahweh allowed satan to sift Peter.

AMEN!!!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Ok. This thread is maybe an indication imo because Paul was a mighty man of faith and satan must have been given permission don't you think to buffet him ? ( regardless if the messenger is an evil spirit or physical disability ) Also I think we have other indications in Annanais and Sapphira and how we're told to turn unrepentant sinning Christians over to satan for "the destruction of the flesh" so that they will be saved. There isn't any scripture that shows satan asking permisssion aside from Job and Peter's sifting I think. I think satan still has access to Heaven until he's cast out according to Rev 12 ( if we accept this is concerning the trib period )

Rev 12:12 KJV Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Your point is extremely valid and extremely ignored because people refuse to apply the principals of basic hermeneutics when they read. Also, after a few trips through the Bible I began to notice that God gives emphasis, not with Magic Marker but, with repeating a command or principal in other places in scripture. After conferring with a couple of my mentors I and they understood hat when God repeats a command, such as the one found three times not to add nor to remove any words from the scriptures or your illustrations on sifting, we need to pay strict attention to these passages. Collectively we determined through pray, submission and study that if God says it, it matters. If God says it twice we should pay attention but if He says it thrice, we really need to mark that in our Bibles and hold it permanently in our minds.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I'm not sure what the Rev 12 scripture implies Deb in reference to this but the John !2 is def relevant. "now the ruler of this world be cast forth". Why do you suggest this means Satan no longer had access to Heaven ? I think this passage shows us that Jesus will provide ( and has provided ) the means for satan to be rejected by the ransom sacrifice.

Joh 12:27 KJV Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

I don't think it means that satan was cast out at that time but that because of Jesus ( for this cause came I unto this hour ) he has been dfeated and will be cast out.

Good point. When we study, Revelation and to many just read this book and do not study it, we must remember to group the Revelation with the Old Testament for methods of study because it is recorded in the same form. And remembering to study it in this manor we must take each passage as it is written. For this, the Holy Spirit is essential because some of it is literal some metaphoric, some of it is pre-Christ and has been fulfilled and some of it is now and much of it is future.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Satan does not have access to the highest heaven where God is seated upon His Throne.

Satan could not last for a second in the literal presence of the glory of God.


JLB

JLB,
I regret this but scripture goes against this. Two times, as referenced by Agua, God has shown us that Satan, formerly chief angel, is going to and fro on the Earth and appears before the throne of the Most Holy. And, as I pointed out, just previously, when God high lights a matter, we need to mark that and remember.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
I regret this but scripture goes against this. Two times, as referenced by Agua, God has shown us that Satan, formerly chief angel, is going to and fro on the Earth and appears before the throne of the Most Holy. And, as I pointed out, just previously, when God high lights a matter, we need to mark that and remember.

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:6-7

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 2:1-2

Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God. Exodus 23:17

And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you.
Deuteronomy 12:12

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Revelation 12:10


The phrase before the Lord does not necessarily mean they are in the Third heaven standing in front of Gods throne.


Look at John the Apostle, who was a righteous saint, and his reaction to being with Jesus in His glory.

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:17


The Old Testament saints were not even allowed to go to Heaven until Jesus appeared to them in the heart of the earth.

Their sins were not yet removed until then, That is why they were contained in paradise until Jesus was revealed to them and their sins were removed so they could be in heaven with God the Father.

as it is written -

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

and again -

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

Jesus said this before the cross.

Now after - "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10

and again - Now in Heaven

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 1:6-7

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it." Job 2:1-2

Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God. Exodus 23:17

And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you.
Deuteronomy 12:12

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. Revelation 12:10

Before you quoted verse 10 of Revelation 12 you are making my point but when you get to Rev. 12:10, still out of context you draw this verse into uselessness. The Revelation is not chronological but must be read as if it were an Old Testament Record. This verse has to do, indeed, with the past, the birth v of Jesus and, likely, has future application but must be understood with prayer, submission to the leading of the Holy Spirit and with the light of all other scripture shinning on it, fighting against pride creeping in.

Lucifer is, indeed, cast down and has become Satan but none of this supports you view.

The phrase before the Lord does not necessarily mean they are in the Third heaven standing in front of Gods throne.

You have said this before but you have yet to support this with scripture.

Look at John the Apostle, who was a righteous saint, and his reaction to being with Jesus in His glory.

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:17


The Old Testament saints were not even allowed to go to Heaven until Jesus appeared to them in the heart of the earth.

Their sins were not yet removed until then, That is why they were contained in paradise until Jesus was revealed to them and their sins were removed so they could be in heaven with God the Father.

I'm sorry but the Saints have nothing to do with Lucifer/Satan, bad comparison and a rabbit trail.

as it is written -

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Hebrews 10:4

and again -

18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18

Jesus said this before the cross.

Now after - "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:8-10
and again - Now in Heaven

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. Revelation 6:9-11


JLB

I honestly do not know how you have tied this collection of scripture together but again, this has nothing to do with Satan/Lucifer appearing before the Throne for permission to sift people. He has and is sifting me right now and he cannot do that without God's permission and God is on the throne, forever more.