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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Bible Study Paul's visit to third Heaven
- Thread starter ravindran_eee
- Start date
farouk
Member
This is a very good, basic approach, yes; I agree. Blessings.
Paul's description of it left a wide opening for false sojourners to make sweeping claims (according to their imagination).
2 Corinthians 12:2-5 (NASB95)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
Either they are not Christian and they are deceptive or being deceived by the prince of the power of the air. This is why we are commanded to test the spirits (1 John 4:1)
Or they are simply deceiving to draw followers / money...
Or they are breaking the gag order...
or they are trying to make expressible the inexpressible...
In my humble experience, trying to do what the Bible says cannot be done or should not be done is a big mistake and a waste of time. Date setting, describing heaven, figuring out what the seven thunders uttered...
Even with circumstantial events granting the possible interpretation of John 8:6 that he was writing "remember the sabbath to keep it holy" see John 9:14 which was apparently what whacked up the Pharisees about stoning the woman (because those were some very self righteous dudes and as Paul wrote about his own pedigree with regard to the Law blameless see Philippians 3:6). One cannot say that is exactly what he wrote in the dust with his finger... though he wrote it in stone for Moses Exodus 20:8 / John 8:58).
Or with Daniel 12:11-12 bracketing in the 70th Week of Daniel with dates of the tribulation, the rapture, and the return of Jesus Christ... can only reveal the time frame until the 70 Week is half over when events in the midst establish when the 70th Week began some 1230 days earlier.
Day 1 cannot be determined until day 1230 and back dating 1230 days...
That being said, this is not date setting since no man knows the date or the hour...
Still people try to set dates. It's too tempting for some. Even good men and women of the faith like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith... etc...
2 Corinthians 12:2-5 (NASB95)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.
Either they are not Christian and they are deceptive or being deceived by the prince of the power of the air. This is why we are commanded to test the spirits (1 John 4:1)
Or they are simply deceiving to draw followers / money...
Or they are breaking the gag order...
or they are trying to make expressible the inexpressible...
In my humble experience, trying to do what the Bible says cannot be done or should not be done is a big mistake and a waste of time. Date setting, describing heaven, figuring out what the seven thunders uttered...
Even with circumstantial events granting the possible interpretation of John 8:6 that he was writing "remember the sabbath to keep it holy" see John 9:14 which was apparently what whacked up the Pharisees about stoning the woman (because those were some very self righteous dudes and as Paul wrote about his own pedigree with regard to the Law blameless see Philippians 3:6). One cannot say that is exactly what he wrote in the dust with his finger... though he wrote it in stone for Moses Exodus 20:8 / John 8:58).
Or with Daniel 12:11-12 bracketing in the 70th Week of Daniel with dates of the tribulation, the rapture, and the return of Jesus Christ... can only reveal the time frame until the 70 Week is half over when events in the midst establish when the 70th Week began some 1230 days earlier.
Day 1 cannot be determined until day 1230 and back dating 1230 days...
That being said, this is not date setting since no man knows the date or the hour...
Still people try to set dates. It's too tempting for some. Even good men and women of the faith like Hal Lindsey and Chuck Smith... etc...
We can deduce from scripture that paradise (mentioned in the same text Paul mentions a man in Christ going to the third heaven) is in heaven and not Sheol (Abraham's Bosom; Luke 16:19-31) as many misinterpret Luke 24:43 to read.
Luke 23:43 (NASB95)
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Using texts like this to support their opinion:
Matthew 12:39-40 (NASB95)
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And after his resurrection on the third day,
John 20:17 (NASB95)
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”
But!
Matthew 12:39-40 refers to Jesus' body being in the tomb.
John 20:17 refers to Jesus resurrected state. He had yet to appear before the Father... in his resurrected state. There is nothing to indicate he did not go to be with the Father in heaven in his Spirit the same day he was crucified in the flesh (which was about a three hour window from the time he gave up the ghost at 3PM and the sun set that day at 6PM).
The texts that say he went to hades / sheol and took from there the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (the captive captivity) all fit in this three hour window.
1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB95)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Jude 6 (NASB95)
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Ephesians 4:8-10 (NASB95)
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Sheol was the waiting pattern for all the dead humans and the angels who left their first estate.
That is until Jesus came in his Spirit, preached the victory over death to the angels and the condemned spirits of men, and took the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (as the side of those awaiting salvation prior to the cross) that same hour to heaven where they are to this day in their disembodied spirits.
The three days and three nights Jesus' body was in the tomb is portrayed as a dark time in heaven and earth. Maybe in earth, but in heaven it was a three day return to the way heaven used to be with all three individuals of the Godhead in heaven. Jesus had the second nature of humanity for some 33 years. And in his resurrection he has the new human nature forever.
With this and the Old Testament saints entering into heaven for the first time, I imagine it was quite a time of celebration and worship there.
Before the cross no man entered heaven in any form.
Proverbs 30:4 (NASB95)
4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name? Surely you know!
John 3:13 (NASB95)
13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
So, Enoch and Elijah could not have ascended to the third heaven but apparently went to the promise side of sheol (which is in the spirit realm).
Luke 16:19-31 (NASB95)
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Isaiah 14 (NASB95)
9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us.
11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’
12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’
18 “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb.
19 “But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.
20 “You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
21 “Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter Because of the iniquity of their fathers. They must not arise and take possession of the earth And fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity,” declares the Lord.
23 “I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.
24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.
26 “This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
27 “For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”
Luke 23:43 (NASB95)
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Using texts like this to support their opinion:
Matthew 12:39-40 (NASB95)
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;
40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
And after his resurrection on the third day,
John 20:17 (NASB95)
17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’ ”
But!
Matthew 12:39-40 refers to Jesus' body being in the tomb.
John 20:17 refers to Jesus resurrected state. He had yet to appear before the Father... in his resurrected state. There is nothing to indicate he did not go to be with the Father in heaven in his Spirit the same day he was crucified in the flesh (which was about a three hour window from the time he gave up the ghost at 3PM and the sun set that day at 6PM).
The texts that say he went to hades / sheol and took from there the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (the captive captivity) all fit in this three hour window.
1 Peter 3:18-20 (NASB95)
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Jude 6 (NASB95)
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Ephesians 4:8-10 (NASB95)
8 Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
Sheol was the waiting pattern for all the dead humans and the angels who left their first estate.
That is until Jesus came in his Spirit, preached the victory over death to the angels and the condemned spirits of men, and took the occupants of Abraham's Bosom (as the side of those awaiting salvation prior to the cross) that same hour to heaven where they are to this day in their disembodied spirits.
The three days and three nights Jesus' body was in the tomb is portrayed as a dark time in heaven and earth. Maybe in earth, but in heaven it was a three day return to the way heaven used to be with all three individuals of the Godhead in heaven. Jesus had the second nature of humanity for some 33 years. And in his resurrection he has the new human nature forever.
With this and the Old Testament saints entering into heaven for the first time, I imagine it was quite a time of celebration and worship there.
Before the cross no man entered heaven in any form.
Proverbs 30:4 (NASB95)
4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son’s name? Surely you know!
John 3:13 (NASB95)
13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
So, Enoch and Elijah could not have ascended to the third heaven but apparently went to the promise side of sheol (which is in the spirit realm).
Luke 16:19-31 (NASB95)
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.
20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’
25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house—
28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’
30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’
31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
Isaiah 14 (NASB95)
9 “Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones.
10 “They will all respond and say to you, ‘Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us.
11 ‘Your pomp and the music of your harps Have been brought down to Sheol; Maggots are spread out as your bed beneath you And worms are your covering.’
12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!
13 “But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
14 ‘I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’
15 “Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, To the recesses of the pit.
16 “Those who see you will gaze at you, They will ponder over you, saying, ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world like a wilderness And overthrew its cities, Who did not allow his prisoners to go home?’
18 “All the kings of the nations lie in glory, Each in his own tomb.
19 “But you have been cast out of your tomb Like a rejected branch, Clothed with the slain who are pierced with a sword, Who go down to the stones of the pit Like a trampled corpse.
20 “You will not be united with them in burial, Because you have ruined your country, You have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers not be mentioned forever.
21 “Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter Because of the iniquity of their fathers. They must not arise and take possession of the earth And fill the face of the world with cities.”
22 “I will rise up against them,” declares the Lord of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity,” declares the Lord.
23 “I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the Lord of hosts.
24 The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand,
25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder.
26 “This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations.
27 “For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”
2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (NASB95)
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This will remain true until the resurrection of the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and the changing of the living when Christ returns (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)... then we will all be clothed with our resurrected bodies (our bodies perfected)...
1 John 3:2 (NASB95)
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
But to the present only Jesus is the one resurrected man. And he is in heaven on his Father's throne.
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This will remain true until the resurrection of the dead (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and the changing of the living when Christ returns (1 Corinthians 15:51-57)... then we will all be clothed with our resurrected bodies (our bodies perfected)...
1 John 3:2 (NASB95)
2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
But to the present only Jesus is the one resurrected man. And he is in heaven on his Father's throne.