Perfection.

[Athos]

Hi, so I've been wondering about this:
If god is perfect, that would mean that its creation had to be perfect, I wouldn't think that god would create something that's not perfect. Because that could be considered evil: if you have the ability to make your creation happy and perfect and you make it imperfect and prone to suffering, that would be considered evil.

Now, why aren't we perfect??

And free will doesn't apply in this situation because:
If god is perfect, that means that time is something created by god, which means that god would've known that eve would taste the apple from the wisdom tree. That means that god created adam and eve knowing that they would be banished eventually from the garden of eden.

Why would god do such an evil thing if it is perfect and loving??

Hope I can tickle your brains with this.

Hugs
Athos.

 

[Mike]

Well, it looks like you have Him all figured out! And you put nice little fences around Him too.

I believe you have some flawed assumptions which is part of the reason why your conclusions make so much sense to you. Why exactly must a perfect Creator not Create something that can have it's own ambition? I mean to say, what natural law are you relying on for that governance.

The Created has now decided how the Creator must exist. Splendid!

Welcome to CFnet!

 

[Free]

Hi, so I've been wondering about this:
If god is perfect, that would mean that its creation had to be perfect, I wouldn't think that god would create something that's not perfect. Because that could be considered evil: if you have the ability to make your creation happy and perfect and you make it imperfect and prone to suffering, that would be considered evil.

Now, why aren't we perfect??

And free will doesn't apply in this situation because:
If god is perfect, that means that time is something created by god, which means that god would've known that eve would taste the apple from the wisdom tree. That means that god created adam and eve knowing that they would be banished eventually from the garden of eden.

Why would god do such an evil thing if it is perfect and loving??

Hope I can tickle your brains with this.

Hugs
Athos.

A problem with your premises. First, you have to define what you mean by "perfect." Second, you have to show just why it is that a "perfect" God must necessarily create everything "perfect." Third, you need to show why it would be evil for God to not create everything "perfect" and with the ability to suffer.

Fourth, freewill certainly does apply. That God knows all events, including how it all began and how it all ends, does not mean that we do not have freewill in some sense.

 

[Jman96]

If we were perfect, that would require us to be controlled, if we were controlled we would not be happy.

The End.

 

[Danus]

I can't think of a better opportunity created than this short physical life we are given to know good and evil to complete our perfection on the other side. This time is only part of the process of our perfection.

 

[Adullam]

Hi, so I've been wondering about this:
If god is perfect, that would mean that its creation had to be perfect, I wouldn't think that god would create something that's not perfect. Because that could be considered evil: if you have the ability to make your creation happy and perfect and you make it imperfect and prone to suffering, that would be considered evil.

Now, why aren't we perfect??

And free will doesn't apply in this situation because:
If god is perfect, that means that time is something created by god, which means that god would've known that eve would taste the apple from the wisdom tree. That means that god created adam and eve knowing that they would be banished eventually from the garden of eden.

Why would god do such an evil thing if it is perfect and loving??

Hope I can tickle your brains with this.

Hugs
Athos.

God has fixed the shambles that free will in man has created in this way...

He has made a perfect new creation in Christ. Those who have not experienced the perfection of Christ in this new creation but rather claim to know Christ WITHOUT this perfection are simply continuing in the rebellion of Adam. These choose not to come to the light in order that they might be saved as God intends.

 

[Athos]

@Mike: I don't really know what you mean about "Fences" around him (btw, is he male??).

@Free: Well philosophically speaking, "perfection" can't be determined since good and evil are concepts defined by society (or in your case by the bible). But we can define perfection as a state of equilibrium, one in which everything is so stable that it can't develop any further and it will last forever without being subject to entropy and decay.

I thought I defined why God can't create something that's not perfect: If you have the ability to make something perfect, but you make something that is not, you are doing it on purpose, and if that imperfection would make your creation prone to suffering, that's also evil.

Taking perfection away, god could've made the universe and us in such a way that we would be happy all the time and satisfied at the same time.
Since he understands everything and knows everything past, present and future, he could've made us in such a way that we could've never screwed up anything.

When he made us, he knew that we were going to be banished and we were going to create this imperfect world. If he didn't then he is not all knowing, and that defies one of the basic rules of christian theory.

@Jman96: If we were perfect, we would be godlike, we wouldn't have to be controlled because we would know the second we do something how it would affect everything that exists and since we are perfect we would only do things that would mantain the perfect balance in the universe.

There's never an end.

@Danus: So you are arguing that he made us imperfect so we would have to work to become perfect, kinda like a RPG game?? Well, that doesn't sound bad at all...

 

[Eventide]

The god of this world...

Interesting discussion and of course a key ingredient is what the scriptures teach us with respect to this present evil world..

That Satan is the god of it and that he clearly influences humanity through the lusts of the flesh..

Unbelievers can scoff at this til the cows come home and yet it's the simple God's honest truth.

 

[Athos]

It's not evil, it's just questioning stuff, logical reasoning, every thing that has brought us to the point we are right now, and that will get us more technologically advanced. If you don't question the things that are around you, you'll never grow as a person.

 

[Chris.]

Athos one thing about us people is we are not "All knowing". We have conscious thought of the world we live in so our understanding of what is perfect with regard to our own lives is limited.

If you have decided in your mind what is perfect then how do you know it is actually a perfect model for a life form and how do we determine the level of perfection in Gods creation?

How then do we judge creation by our understanding when our understanding is fluid and constantly changing? Can we rely on our constantly changing theories to be accurate and believable.

The Bible and the descriptions therein of God are static and do not change They are reliable.

 

[Athos]

Of course it's fluid and constantly evolving (not changing), so are we. You have no way of knowing if the bible is true. I have ways of knowing if the theories in which I believe are more or less accurate, but that is not the point of this debate. Why are you bringing it up??

PD: If this is a perfect model of life, it kinda sucks. I think that god could've made a better model, you know, one without Cancer, degenerative brain dieseases, mass murder, war, atomic bombs, pandemics, poverty, racism, hate, corruption, pollution and justin bieber...

 

[Chris.]

Of course it's fluid and constantly evolving (not changing), so are we. You have no way of knowing if the bible is true. I have ways of knowing if the theories in which I believe are more or less accurate, but that is not the point of this debate. Why are you bringing it up??

It gave me something to do and padded out the post with a few more words.

 

[Mike]

Athos, you said in your OP that these were things you wondered about, and you posed some questions. Since your OP, it sounds rather like you want to espouse your disbeliefs that you are actually very certain of. If this is your intent, your visit to CFnet will be brief.

I suggest you re-read the ToS and decide, as you were asked to do when you registered, if it is something you can comply with. We're open to having non-believers join our community, but there needs to be respect for the venue you have joined, and the ToS needs to be adhered to.

 

[rrowell]

@Free: Well philosophically speaking, "perfection" can't be determined since good and evil are concepts defined by society (or in your case by the bible). But we can define perfection as a state of equilibrium, one in which everything is so stable that it can't develop any further and it will last forever without being subject to entropy and decay.

How can you define perfection, when you are in no way perfect as it is clear you question the validity of the bible, therefore you have made yourself incapable... if you created perfection you can define it, only the creator of perfection truly knows what perfection is, he made us perfect, if we make the wrong choice (defile ourselves) it is by his Grace, Love for us, through his son, he gives man the ability to realign himself with Gods will being "made perfect" again, God made man "Perfect" as he defines "Perfection", he made us perfectly capable of doing his will, or not... if we do his will we are made perfect to his design... we were made with a choice from the beginning.

I thought I defined why God can't create something that's not perfect: If you have the ability to make something perfect, but you make something that is not, you are doing it on purpose, and if that imperfection would make your creation prone to suffering, that's also evil.

God from the beginning made man to have a choice, he made him to have a desire, it is his will to have all men to make a choice to love him, this is how he allows man who was made perfect yet made the choice to defile himself to be "made perfect" again... every thing God makes is perfect, if it is not at some point in time, it was because of the poor choice he "allowed by design" man to make... you can be perfectly saved, or perfectly lost, it is your choice.

James 1:17 (KJV)
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

 

[smaller]

Hi, so I've been wondering about this:
If god is perfect, that would mean that its creation had to be perfect, I wouldn't think that god would create something that's not perfect. Because that could be considered evil: if you have the ability to make your creation happy and perfect and you make it imperfect and prone to suffering, that would be considered evil.

Now, why aren't we perfect??

Christian understanding has that of The Creator and the created. Were God to replicate 'Perfection' what would it be? A replica of Himself, overlaid and indistinguishable in any way from the Original?

Perfection draws a line between Himself and every 'thing' else i.e. there is no comparative 'thing.' The sum of any thing or of all things will remain vastly less in any comparison.

Creation or any created thing is then automatically relegated to 'less than Perfection.'

Our minds have and receive the pleasure of that contemplation and in that there is also a measure of freedom. Room to roam so to speak.

And free will doesn't apply in this situation because:
If god is perfect, that means that time is something created by god, which means that god would've known that eve would taste the apple from the wisdom tree. That means that god created adam and eve knowing that they would be banished eventually from the garden of eden.

Why would god do such an evil thing if it is perfect and loving??

Scriptures do set forth certain principles that arise from the experiences. If for example God bound the aforementioned with weakness, corruption, dishonor and a natural (wet dust) body, and from that provides a first hand experience with matters of judgments, mercy, faith, hope, forgiveness and love among other things, then He is justified for doing so.

The imperfect serves and gives rise to eternal matters in a personal and participatory way.

Faith is a heavenly tool of perceptions and reflections.

s

 

[Free]

Hey, guess what? I lied! I made a bet pool with friends to see how long I could last in a christian forum without being banned.

You weren't being banned. But you will be now. 222

 

[Elijah674]

You weren't being banned. But you will be now. 222

There could be some good thoughts brought out here if one would stick to Bible material itself.
Perfection. The creation of God was not flawed! But was indeed PERFECT!

OK: Were Adam & Eve [MATURELY PERFECT] when created?
Surely not. They had a mind to obey or not to obey with. (Gen. 3's forbidden fruit while they were still perfect!)

And Heb. 12 finds our training as Partakers IN Christ as 'growing pains as well'. And as verse 8 finds, we can 'choose' which way we will go.

Heb. 12
[4] Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
[5] And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
[6] For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
[7] If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

[8] But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

(this verse even finds it with in our power to resist the Holy Spirits Leading! Rom. 8:14 The sin of omission, huh!)

[9] Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
[10] For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

 

[Chris.]

You weren't being banned. But you will be now. 222

I am glad he joined I got a good laugh out of it. Atheists are so cute! I was worried he was going to try to use windows on his religion disproving time machine in the other thread.

 

[Free]

I wouldn't say they're cute. There are some who are intelligent and are genuinely interested in discussion. And some clearly aren't.

Anyways, back to topic.

 

[Danus]

@Danus: So you are arguing that he made us imperfect so we would have to work to become perfect, kinda like a RPG game?? Well, that doesn't sound bad at all...

Nope, nor did I say that. That's just how you assessed it in your limited understanding of God.

Your OP started out weak and I gave you the best weak answer for it.

As an Atheist, your going to have a hard time understanding something you say you don't believe in.

It kills me how Atheist want to talk about what does not exist. Some of you guys are really cooky.